Are You Pro-life?

[southern california guy]

Do you believe that abortion is murder and should be illegal? (I was going to split this into two questions but I used up the maximum number of poll questions). I guess you could argue that you believe that abortion is murder but should still be legal.

Do you support abortions for cases of rape, and incest? This is a troubling question to me too, since I understand how hard it is on the mother.

Do you support abortion for the "health" of the mother? This is a very broad vague sort of reason. It can include mental health and other health issues that do not endanger the mothers life. But do you support it anyway?

If you support abortions for any of the above reasons do you still consider yourself "Pro-life"?

Is it possible to be both Pro-choice and Pro-life at the same time?

[Anomaly]

How do you think the legal status of abortion will be changed in the US when the majority of public opinion supports legal abortion. Change the law against public opinion. Or change public opinion first?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352042418' post='2503855']
How do you think the legal status of abortion will be changed in the US when the majority of public opinion supports legal abortion. Change the law against public opinion. Or change public opinion first?
[/quote]

I think that the majority already supports legal abortion. I doubt that we can change the legal status of abortion until we change public opinion.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1352044391' post='2503862']


I think that the majority already supports legal abortion. I doubt that we can change the legal status of abortion until we change public opinion.
[/quote]i agree with you there. That probably why the Democrat Party has made the legal protection of abortion a part of their political agenda. It's for the votes. Opposition to this agenda is the minority and cannot gain political traction to abolish abortion, remove government funding, or prevent mandatory private funding via government dictate on insurance companies.

It's better to have health care for more poor and unfortunate even if we have ti allow killing of fetuses (who aren't real people anyway). That's majority opinion.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1352041988' post='2503854']
Do you believe that abortion is murder and should be illegal? (I was going to split this into two questions but I used up the maximum number of poll questions). I guess you could argue that you believe that abortion is murder but should still be legal.[/quote]

Life begins at conception. Scientific fact.
Abortion is the intentional killing of an unborn life.
Therefore, abortion is murder.

To argue that abortion is murder, but should be legal is to create a huge subjective standard on what innocent human life is protected and what is not.

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1352041988' post='2503854']
Do you support abortions for cases of rape, and incest? This is a troubling question to me too, since I understand how hard it is on the mother.[/quote]

When a poor store owner loses his uninsured store to a fire set by a hoodlum who runs away, we should kill one of his infant sons or daughters so he won't have to worry about providing for that child?



That above statement was facetious. However it's point was to show that you should be favor of such action If you believe in killing innocent human life to remedy the guilty actions of a third party...

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1352041988' post='2503854']
Do you support abortion for the "health" of the mother? This is a very broad vague sort of reason. It can include mental health and other health issues that do not endanger the mothers life. But do you support it anyway?[/quote]

I do not support any action that intentionally kills innocent life. You cannot kill innocent human life intentionally.....end of story. If you believe you can kill innocent human life intentionally sometimes.......well then your in moral relativism......have fun defending that slippery slope.

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1352041988' post='2503854']
If you support abortions for any of the above reasons do you still consider yourself "Pro-life"?

Is it possible to be both Pro-choice and Pro-life at the same time?
[/quote]

To be "pro-life" while being pro-death to an innocent human for any reason intentionally is to be hypocritical and grossly misuse the term.

Jaime had a great quote on this on some other thread.

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1351393660' post='2498933']
Voting for someone because they like "less" murder does not make them pro-life. If you are for any type of abortion, you are pro-choice. [b]there are degrees of pro-choice but not of pro-life[/b]. You are either pro-life or not
[/quote]

We are not talking about voting, but his point is still good.

I can't vote in the poll, because I don't have any good options for the last question as abortion cannot be morally justified to save the mother's life.

[kujo]

Can you be pro-life and not think abortion should be illegal?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1352047503' post='2503876']
Can you be pro-life and not think abortion should be illegal?
[/quote]

Can you be pro-life and think that abortion should be legal?

Can a "good" Catholic be "pro-choice"?

Are the majority of Catholics "Pro-choice"?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_LW8m0tiUM[/media]

Is this the position of most of the people in this forum?

Edited November 4, 2012 by southern california guy

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1352047503' post='2503876']
Can you be pro-life and not think abortion should be illegal?
[/quote]

Not really... If you believe it to be a life before they are born, as a society we have an obligation to protect all life. Thus there are laws about murder outside the womb. Not many people would argue that those laws shouldn't exist. So why should there not also be laws to protect those in the womb, if they are believed to be a human life? Let me ask you- do you believe someone can be pro-life and not think abortion should be legal? Why?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1352047061' post='2503875']
Life begins at conception. Scientific fact.
Abortion is the intentional killing of an unborn life.
Therefore, abortion is murder.

To argue that abortion is murder, but should be legal is to create a huge subjective standard on what innocent human life is protected and what is not.



When a poor store owner loses his uninsured store to a fire set by a hoodlum who runs away, we should kill one of his infant sons or daughters so he won't have to worry about providing for that child?



That above statement was facetious. However it's point was to show that you should be favor of such action If you believe in killing innocent human life to remedy the guilty actions of a third party...



I do not support any action that intentionally kills innocent life. You cannot kill innocent human life intentionally.....end of story. If you believe you can kill innocent human life intentionally sometimes.......well then your in moral relativism......have fun defending that slippery slope.



To be "pro-life" while being pro-death to an innocent human for any reason intentionally is to be hypocritical and grossly misuse the term.

Jaime had a great quote on this on some other thread.



We are not talking about voting, but his point is still good.

I can't vote in the poll, because I don't have any good options for the last question as abortion cannot be morally justified to save the mother's life.
[/quote]

I think your post is great. I would give you props but membership is restricted and I can't give props.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1352047503' post='2503876']
Can you be pro-life and not think abortion should be illegal?
[/quote]


Can you be against rape but think it should be legal?

The obvious counter to this would be to argue that the person who is being raped is being violated of their liberty (just to start off with)......but then I counter, why is abortion okay since it violates an innocent human of their life?

If one still wants to stand by being "pro-life" but is against it being illegal.......then to be consistent they cannot be for virtually any law to prohibit any general action.

So if one refuses to argue/fight/advocate to make it illegal to end innocent human life, then it doesn't make any sense that they could be for banning smoking in public since no innocent human life is at immediate stake.

If you won't defend innocent human life, then why would you defend a speed limit law or something with smaller stakes?


That argument aside, there is another argument that says no, you cannot be pro-life but think it should be legal as you cannot be "pro-Jewish" but think what Hitler did was merely "unfortunate but legal."

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1352058430' post='2503993']
I think your post is great. I would give you props but membership is restricted and I can't give props.
[/quote]

Thanks.

I almost mentioned this in my first post, but I'll mention it here, there is a recent woman who died in 1962 and was made a saint in 2004 precisely because she made it quite clear that they would not take the life of the unborn baby to save her.......and like 7 days after the baby was born, she died.

[url="http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=6985"]http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=6985[/url]

St. Gianna Molla.

Not surprising, she is the patron saint of mothers, unborn, and physicians as she was a doctor herself.

[southern california guy]

116 views, but only 9 votes cast.........

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1352150145' post='2504674']
116 views, but only 9 votes cast.........
[/quote]


Some of those may be search engines. There is also the "Lurk Factor."

[Anomaly]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1352047503' post='2503876']
Can you be pro-life and not think abortion should be illegal?
[/quote]ABSOLUTELY YES!

You have to believe that a zygote or fetus is not a life. If you want to be intellectually honest, you will have to decide what is Human life? At want point in the course from conception to dead is it not life? What standard will allow us to determine when we can decapitate or give lethal injection regardless of the desire or will of that life?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1352150145' post='2504674']
116 views, but only 9 votes cast.........
[/quote]my choices aren't there do I didn't vote? Where's third party?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352158858' post='2504814']
[/quote]
Oh, I get it now. The dolphins kinda look like they are in the same pose as the girls. haha

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1352159132' post='2504819']

Oh, I get it now. The dolphins kinda look like they are in the same pose as the girls. haha
[/quote]The bottom ones are my tattooed and pierced fierce children that I am inordinately proud of. .

Edited November 6, 2012 by Anomaly

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1352159132' post='2504819']
Oh, I get it now. The dolphins kinda look like they are in the same pose as the girls. haha
[/quote]

You just now got that?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1352161301' post='2504846']


You just now got that?
[/quote]The stunning beauty of my progeny usually renders the water dwelling mammals invisible.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352158858' post='2504814']
ABSOLUTELY YES!

You have to believe that a zygote or fetus is not a life. If you want to be intellectually honest, you will have to decide what is Human life? At want point in the course from conception to dead is it not life? What standard will allow us to determine when we can decapitate or give lethal injection regardless of the desire or will of that life?
[/quote]

I don't know if many people know much about the original Roe V Wade decision. It actually dealt with this question. And notice how abortion was defended on the grounds of "protecting the women's [b]health[/b]" -- just like Mitt Romney is doing.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade[/url]


[color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3][i][b]Roe v. Wade[/b][/i], 410 [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Reports"]U.S.[/url] [url="https://supreme.justia.com/us/410/113/case.html"]113[/url] (1973), is a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landmark_court_decisions_in_the_United_States"]landmark decision[/url] by the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States"]United States Supreme Court[/url]on the issue of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion"]abortion[/url]. Decided simultaneously with a companion case, [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doe_v._Bolton"]Doe v. Bolton[/url][/i], the Court ruled that a right to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy#Privacy_law"]privacy[/url] under the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process"]due process[/url] clause of the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]14th Amendment[/url] extended to a woman's decision to have an abortion, [color=#ff0000]but that [size=4][b]right must be balanced[/b][/size] against the state's two legitimate interests in regulating abortions: protecting[b] [size=4]prenatal life[/size][/b] and protecting women's [/color][size=4][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade#"][color=#FF0000]health[/color][/url][/b][/size]. Arguing that these state interests became stronger over the course of a pregnancy, [b]the Court resolved this [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balancing_test"]balancing test[/url] by[color=#ff0000] [/color][/b][color=#ff0000]tying [size=4][b]state regulation[/b][/size] of abortion to the[/color][b][color=#ff0000] [/color][size=4][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimester_(pregnancy)#Physiology"][color=#FF0000]trimester of pregnancy[/color][/url][/i][/size][color=#ff0000].[/color][/b][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]The Court [color=#ff0000]later rejected[/color] [i]Roe[/i]'s [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade#"]trimester[/url] framework, while affirming [i]Roe[/i]'s central holding that a person has a right to abortion until [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viability_(fetal)"]viability[/url].[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade#cite_note-0"][1][/url][/sup] The [i]Roe[/i] decision defined "viable" as being "potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid", adding that viability "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade#cite_note-1"][2][/url][/sup][/size][/font][/color]

Edited November 6, 2012 by southern california guy