St. John Of The Cross' Categories Of Intellectual Knowledge

[Gabriela]

Wondering what you all think of this:

[IMG]http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz57/jesigler/StJCategories.png[/IMG]

It was an awful lot of work!

Edited November 21, 2012 by curiousing

[AnneLine]

I'm sure it was a lot of work... unfortunately I can't read it...

[BarbTherese]

I could read it by clicking on the 'black rectangle' (icon) to the right and JUST above "It was an awful lot of work!" - but then I had to magnify 200%. It must have been an absolutely HUGE amount of work.

Edited November 21, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[To Jesus Through Mary]

Could I send you my email for you to email this to me? It would be very helpful in my studies, and like AnneLine I cannot read it (and when I magnify it it gets blurry)

What prompted you to make this chart?

[Gabriela]

[quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1353499331' post='2514162']
Could I send you my email for you to email this to me? It would be very helpful in my studies, and like AnneLine I cannot read it (and when I magnify it it gets blurry)

What prompted you to make this chart?
[/quote]

Of course you may send me your email. I'll be happy to forward it.

I am examining divine discourse (internal locutions, mental impressions, etc.) for my Master's thesis. St. John of the Cross provides the most comprehensive discussion of this very narrow topic (at least so far as I've found). His writing, however, is quite difficult (mostly interspersed every two sentences with why he disapproves of this, that, and everything else—sorry, not a big fan of Carmelites!). So in order to get his taxonomy of divine communications straight in my head, I needed to visualize it. This helped a whole bunch.

Of course, I may have misunderstood St. John of the Cross. So before anyone uses this to study for exams or anything, you should run it by your professors of theology! I am not a theologian, after all, just a lowly grad student in Communication at a state university.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353521917' post='2514310']

Of course you may send me your email. I'll be happy to forward it.

I am examining divine discourse (internal locutions, mental impressions, etc.) for my Master's thesis. St. John of the Cross provides the most comprehensive discussion of this very narrow topic (at least so far as I've found). His writing, however, is quite difficult (mostly interspersed every two sentences with why he disapproves of this, that, and everything else—sorry, not a big fan of Carmelites!). So in order to get his taxonomy of divine communications straight in my head, I needed to visualize it. This helped a whole bunch.

Of course, I may have misunderstood St. John of the Cross. So before anyone uses this to study for exams or anything, you should run it by your professors of theology! I am not a theologian, after all, just a lowly grad student in Communication at a state university.
[/quote]

LOL and my studies of theology and philosophy are strictly for self benefit- I am not in school at the moment. I personally have grown to like St John of the Cross and am always looking to deepen my understanding of his work.

[AccountDeleted]

For those who have difficulty with St John of the Cross, I can't recommend enough the book by St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) called The Science of the Cross. It is very intellectual but for me, it opened doors of understanding for St John and touched my heart deeply. Iain Matthews also did a remarkable PhD thesis on St John's Dark Night of the Soul but I am not sure how one would go about getting a copy of that unless they knew which university he did it for. I read it inside a Carmel where they had been sent a copmlimentary copy.

I adore this man but then I have a very Carmelite heart and mind.

[AnneLine]

Curiousing, you may also want to check out St. Teresa's Interior Castle (you probably have already done so....)

I'll PM you because I am curious....

Also... I really like Fr. Iain Matthew's book on St. John: [i]Impact of God: Soundings from St. John of the Cross[/i].

[Gabriela]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1353531207' post='2514441']
Iain Matthews also did a remarkable PhD thesis on St John's Dark Night of the Soul but I am not sure how one would go about getting a copy of that unless they knew which university he did it for. I read it inside a Carmel where they had been sent a copmlimentary copy.
[/quote]

There's a thesis/dissertation database online. I think it's out of the University of Chicago. (I can ask my advisor if anyone's really keen to get this. He's mentioned it before.) I don't know how far back the database goes, but these days, if you search an academic database (like EBSCOHost or Google Scholar, even) for the title of the thesis/dissertation, many of them pop up. Anyone at a university could do this for you for free. The older ones that were written before the days of the internet often don't appear, but I think that even these are being digitized now, so, you know, if you wait long enough... :-P

[Gabriela]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1353539720' post='2514474']
Curiousing, you may also want to check out St. Teresa's Interior Castle (you probably have already done so....)
[/quote]

I have not, actually, though I've heard she's similar to St. John of the Cross. I don't think she covered the types of divine communication as methodically as he did, though. Did she? If so, I need to get that book...

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353540873' post='2514488']

There's a thesis/dissertation database online. I think it's out of the University of Chicago. (I can ask my advisor if anyone's really keen to get this. He's mentioned it before.) I don't know how far back the database goes, but these days, if you search an academic database (like EBSCOHost or Google Scholar, even) for the title of the thesis/dissertation, many of them pop up. Anyone at a university could do this for you for free. The older ones that were written before the days of the internet often don't appear, but I think that even these are being digitized now, so, you know, if you wait long enough... :-P
[/quote]


Unfortunately I can't remember the title of the thesis but the topic was the dark night of the soul and in it he posed the question of whether Jesus had experienced something like a Dark Night during his life. It was heavily resourced and academic so not the kind of reading you would do for fun - but fascinating all the same.

The Impact of God was designed more as an introduction to St John of the Cross.Edith Stein's work has been translated from German so it can seem a little heavy going, but I loved it.

There are many other works about St J of C's writings but a lot of these are hard to find. I have been blessed to have lived in several Carmelite monasteries and their libraries are always full of good books on their Carmelite saints, especially Teresa and John. Finding the thesis in a glass cabinet was one of the greatest finds in all my wanderings through Carmelite libraries!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353540968' post='2514489']

I have not, actually, though I've heard she's similar to St. John of the Cross. I don't think she covered the types of divine communication as methodically as he did, though. Did she? If so, I need to get that book...
[/quote]

She wasn't as methodical as he was but she did cover her own experiences in detail

[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic20.htm"]http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic20.htm[/url]

[b] CHAPTER III.[/b]

TREATS OF THE SAME SUBJECT AND OF THE WAY GOD IS SOMETIMES PLEASED TO SPEAK TO THE SOUL. HOW WE SHOULD BEHAVE IN SUCH A CASE, IN WHICH WE MUST NOT FOLLOW OUR OWN OPINION. GIVES SIGNS TO SHOW HOW TO DISCOVER WHETHER THIS FAVOUR IS A DECEPTION OR NOT: THIS IS VERY NOTEWORTHY.
[i]1. Locutions. 2. Sometimes caused by melancholia. 3. Caution needed at first. 4. Locutions frequently occur during prayer. 5. Resist those containing false doctrine. 6. First sign of genuine locutions. 7. Effect of the words: 'Be not troubled.' 8. 'It is I, be not afraid.' 9. 'Be at Peace.' 10. Second sign. 11. Third sign. 12. The devil suggests doubts about true locutions. 13. Confidence of the soul rewarded. 14. Its joy at seeing God's words verified. 15. Its zeal for God's honour. 16. Locutions coining from the fancy. 17. Imaginary answers given to prayer. 18. A confessor should be consulted about locutions. 19. Interior locutions. 20. First sign of genuine interior locutions. 21. Second sign. 22. Third sign. 23. Fourth sign. 24. Fifth sign. 25. Results of true locutions. 26. They should remove alarm. 27. Answer to an objection[/i].

[Gabriela]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1353542718' post='2514506']
She wasn't as methodical as he was but she did cover her own experiences in detail

[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic20.htm"]http://www.sacred-te...r/tic/tic20.htm[/url]

[b] CHAPTER III.[/b]

TREATS OF THE SAME SUBJECT AND OF THE WAY GOD IS SOMETIMES PLEASED TO SPEAK TO THE SOUL. HOW WE SHOULD BEHAVE IN SUCH A CASE, IN WHICH WE MUST NOT FOLLOW OUR OWN OPINION. GIVES SIGNS TO SHOW HOW TO DISCOVER WHETHER THIS FAVOUR IS A DECEPTION OR NOT: THIS IS VERY NOTEWORTHY.
[i]1. Locutions. 2. Sometimes caused by melancholia. 3. Caution needed at first. 4. Locutions frequently occur during prayer. 5. Resist those containing false doctrine. 6. First sign of genuine locutions. 7. Effect of the words: 'Be not troubled.' 8. 'It is I, be not afraid.' 9. 'Be at Peace.' 10. Second sign. 11. Third sign. 12. The devil suggests doubts about true locutions. 13. Confidence of the soul rewarded. 14. Its joy at seeing God's words verified. 15. Its zeal for God's honour. 16. Locutions coining from the fancy. 17. Imaginary answers given to prayer. 18. A confessor should be consulted about locutions. 19. Interior locutions. 20. First sign of genuine interior locutions. 21. Second sign. 22. Third sign. 23. Fourth sign. 24. Fifth sign. 25. Results of true locutions. 26. They should remove alarm. 27. Answer to an objection[/i].
[/quote]

Oh, boy, is this helpful! Thank you VERY much! (Added to thesis...)

[Gabriela]

So, here are St. Teresa of Avila's criteria for distinguishing God's communications from the devil's and the imagination's, as I have condensed them for my thesis.


[b]St. Teresa of Avila’s Signs of Genuine (Divine) Locutions[/b][list=1]
[*]They carry “power and authority” (chapter 3, paragraph 7), i.e., they affect immediate change for the good in the soul (accompanied by positive affect).
[*]Pious calm and peace, a desire to praise God (chapter 3, paragraph 10).
[*]They are impressed indelibly upon the memory and there is an unwavering certainty of their truth, even when it seems impossible (chapter 3, paragraph 11).
[*]The language used is exceedingly clear and distinct (chapter 3, paragraph 20).
[*]Often the hearer was not thinking about the content of the locution at the time that it occurred, and may not have even known anything about the subject (chapter 3, paragraph 21).
[*]“The soul seems to listen to the words,” in contrast to imagination-constructed locutions, with which one can perceive the process of their construction step by step—i.e., divine locutions occur suddenly, and the hearer receives them passively rather than actively constructing them (chapter 3, paragraph 22).
[*]Single words in divine locutions seem to have “a depth of meaning” far beyond what our mind could imbue into even a whole phrase (chapter 3, paragraph 23).
[*]One understands from the locution a great deal more than is contained in the literal meaning of the words themselves (chapter 3, paragraph 24).
[*]The result of the locution is humility, not pride (chapter 3, paragraph 25).
[*]One cannot desire these locutions into existence, nor ignore them, not listen to them, or distract one’s mind from them as they are occurring (chapter 3, paragraph 27). In other words, they compel attention.
[/list]
Just FYI: These overlap with the opinions of many other authorities, including both Catholic and academic sources. If I have condensed them in error, please correct me!

Thank you VERY much, nunsense! I have to say, after reading St. Teresa, my view of Carmelites is much improved. [i]Love the woman.[/i] St. John of the Cross is so harsh by comparison...

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353604329' post='2514784']
So, here are St. Teresa of Avila's criteria for distinguishing God's communications from the devil's and the imagination's, as I have condensed them for my thesis.


[b]St. Teresa of Avila’s Signs of Genuine (Divine) Locutions[/b][list=1]
[*]They carry “power and authority” (chapter 3, paragraph 7), i.e., they affect immediate change for the good in the soul (accompanied by positive affect).

[*]Pious calm and peace, a desire to praise God (chapter 3, paragraph 10).

[*]They are impressed indelibly upon the memory and there is an unwavering certainty of their truth, even when it seems impossible (chapter 3, paragraph 11).

[*]The language used is exceedingly clear and distinct (chapter 3, paragraph 20).

[*]Often the hearer was not thinking about the content of the locution at the time that it occurred, and may not have even known anything about the subject (chapter 3, paragraph 21).

[*]“The soul seems to listen to the words,” in contrast to imagination-constructed locutions, with which one can perceive the process of their construction step by step—i.e., divine locutions occur suddenly, and the hearer receives them passively rather than actively constructing them (chapter 3, paragraph 22).

[*]Single words in divine locutions seem to have “a depth of meaning” far beyond what our mind could imbue into even a whole phrase (chapter 3, paragraph 23).

[*]One understands from the locution a great deal more than is contained in the literal meaning of the words themselves (chapter 3, paragraph 24).

[*]The result of the locution is humility, not pride (chapter 3, paragraph 25).

[*]One cannot desire these locutions into existence, nor ignore them, not listen to them, or distract one’s mind from them as they are occurring (chapter 3, paragraph 27). In other words, they compel attention.
[/list]
Just FYI: These overlap with the opinions of many other authorities, including both Catholic and academic sources. If I have condensed them in error, please correct me!

Thank you VERY much, nunsense! I have to say, after reading St. Teresa, my view of Carmelites is much improved. [i]Love the woman.[/i] St. John of the Cross is so harsh by comparison...
[/quote]

The next chapter is on raptures or ecstasy and the following on flight of the spirit so she may use different words than other writers for similar things. Here is a list of the contents of the Interior Castle - the whole thing is about stages of prayer by the way...
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/"]http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/[/url]

[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic00.htm"]Title Page and Front Matter[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic01.htm"]Note[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic02.htm"]Contents[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic03.htm"]Introduction[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic04.htm"]Preface[/url]

[b] The First Mansions[/b]

[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic05.htm"]Chapter I. Description of the Castle
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic06.htm"]Chapter II. The Human Soul.[/url]
[/url]
[b] The Second Mansions[/b]

[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic07.htm"]Chapter I. War.
[/url]
[b] The Third Mansions[/b]

[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic08.htm"]Chapter I. Fear of God
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic09.htm"]Chapter II. Aridity in Prayer[/url]
[/url]
[b] The Fourth Mansions[/b]

[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic10.htm"]Chapter I. Sweetness in Prayer.
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic11.htm"]Chapter II. Divine Consolations[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic12.htm"]Chapter III. Prayer of Quiet[/url]
[/url]
[b] The Fifth Mansions[/b]

[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic13.htm"]Chapter I. Prayer of Union
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic14.htm"]Chapter II. Effects of Union[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic15.htm"]Chapter III. Cause of Union[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic16.htm"]Chapter IV. Spiritual Espousals[/url]
[/url]
[b] The Sixth Mansions[/b]

[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic17.htm"]Chapter I. Preparation for Spiritual Marriage
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic18.htm"]Chapter II. The Wound of Love[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic19.htm"]Introductory Note to Chapter III by the Editor[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic20.htm"]Chapter III. Locutions[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic21.htm"]Chapter IV. Raptures[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic22.htm"]Chapter V. The Flight of the Spirit[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic23.htm"]Chapter VI. Spiritual Jubilation[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic24.htm"]Chapter VII. The Humanity of Our Lord[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic25.htm"]Chapter VIII. Intellectual Visions[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic26.htm"]Chapter IX. Imaginary Visions[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic27.htm"]Chapter X. Intellectual Visions Continued[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic28.htm"]Chapter XI. The Dart of Love[/url]
[/url]
[b] The Seventh Mansions[/b]

<a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic29.htm">Chapter I. God's Presence Chamber
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic30.htm"]Chapter II. Spiritual Marriage[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic31.htm"]Chapter III. Its Effects[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic32.htm"]Chapter IV. Martha and Mary[/url]
[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic33.htm"]Epilogue[/url]


[url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic34.htm"]Index[/url]