Community And Internet

[Butterfly]

The last time when I was thinking about religious life and about my novitiate I wondered why so many communities restrict to their postulants and novices the internet access, although they promote the community through internet and recruit their members via internet. Thoughts? Reasons? I think it can also be used as a good media and I don’t see any good reason, when the community is active. My community is in this question more open and allowed also writing mails and a limited contact to the old social life of the novices. I am wondering why this is not practice in other communities. And another question I have: I know that many communities allow to their novices to write letters to their parents. But what’s about their old friends? Do they have to give them all up? Or how do they handle it with the contact?
Thank you very much for your thoughts
Butterfly

Edited November 22, 2012 by Butterfly

[mantellata]

Restricting internet access as a postulant and novice in formation is a brilliant idea in my opinion. We live in a culture (that I like to dub "microwave") where we are in a constant state of desiring information and updates. The whole point of formation is to give the candidate the necessary space, for a short period, to focus on "the One Thing that Matters". Consider it an information superhighway diet - meant not to move one towards the abandonment of the new media - but the proper use of it. Formation is a lot of work (having been there myself) and I am truly grateful for the "hiatus" from media in order to slow down and re-evaluate the call God was giving me. I was then able to better focus on the relationships in front of me (my Sisters) who - unlike other more organic groupings, were a sort of family that was dropped into my lap. This required a lot of effort initially - to go out of my way and meet and understand and truly get to know all my new Sisters. They were my first "earthy priority". Since I couldn't out of habit just check for email updates or facebook postings I suddenly had an [b]enormous[/b] amount of "free time" which I could then choose to spend in more productive ways towards my formation (study, interacting with my Sisters, one-on-one with my dear Jesus in the Chapel) After formation when such media was returned to our use without outside discretion I was in a [u]much[/u] better position to evaluate the appropriate use of such media for my new state in life.


I would add that in some ways, being an active Sister is more difficult than being cloistered. The cloister is this loving protection that through physical boundaries allows the religious to focus her everything on God. The environment and her vows make it [i]easier[/i] to enter the "narrow gate" and find her Lord. As an active religious, you need several good solid years of absence from "the world" before being thrust back into it. An active religious [u]must[/u], for the success of her vocation, be able to create an "interior cell" in which she can dwell with God [u]while being in the midst of His people.[/u] There are [u]way[/u] more distractions in the world that pull you away from this recollection. The Church, in her Code of Canon Law, teaches us that the [i]first and most important duty of religious is [/i][i][u]assiduous[/u] union with God in prayer.[/i] Easier to accomplish in the cloister - no? We can all serve Christ - even while married, but the religious life is more than a "holy club" where you live together and do good works together.

More simply put - St. Paul would tell us that we must first learn how to live in such a fashion as not to be "of the world" before we are thrust back in it.

[carmenchristi]

[quote name='mantellata' timestamp='1353590334' post='2514752']
Restricting internet access as a postulant and novice in formation is a brilliant idea in my opinion. We live in a culture (that I like to dub "microwave") where we are in a constant state of desiring information and updates. The whole point of formation is to give the candidate the necessary space, for a short period, to focus on "the One Thing that Matters". Consider it an information superhighway diet - meant not to move one towards the abandonment of the new media - but the proper use of it. Formation is a lot of work (having been there myself) and I am truly grateful for the "hiatus" from media in order to slow down and re-evaluate the call God was giving me. I was then able to better focus on the relationships in front of me (my Sisters) who - unlike other more organic groupings, were a sort of family that was dropped into my lap. This required a lot of effort initially - to go out of my way and meet and understand and truly get to know all my new Sisters. They were my first "earthy priority". Since I couldn't out of habit just check for email updates or facebook postings I suddenly had an [b]enormous[/b] amount of "free time" which I could then choose to spend in more productive ways towards my formation (study, interacting with my Sisters, one-on-one with my dear Jesus in the Chapel) After formation when such media was returned to our use without outside discretion I was in a [u]much[/u] better position to evaluate the appropriate use of such media for my new state in life.


I would add that in some ways, being an active Sister is more difficult than being cloistered. The cloister is this loving protection that through physical boundaries allows the religious to focus her everything on God. The environment and her vows make it [i]easier[/i] to enter the "narrow gate" and find her Lord. As an active religious, you need several good solid years of absence from "the world" before being thrust back into it. An active religious [u]must[/u], for the success of her vocation, be able to create an "interior cell" in which she can dwell with God [u]while being in the midst of His people.[/u] There are [u]way[/u] more distractions in the world that pull you away from this recollection. The Church, in her Code of Canon Law, teaches us that the [i]first and most important duty of religious is [/i][i][u]assiduous[/u] union with God in prayer.[/i] Easier to accomplish in the cloister - no? We can all serve Christ - even while married, but the religious life is more than a "holy club" where you live together and do good works together.

More simply put - St. Paul would tell us that we must first learn how to live in such a fashion as not to be "of the world" before we are thrust back in it.
[/quote]


I was going to post, but you said everything that I would have said. Good post.

[mantellata]

Props as a thank you.

[Feankie]

Wonderful post. Thank you

[Nunsense]

Personally, I would like to see email and the Internet used in a balanced way. There often seems to be a mentality that it is an all or nothing proposition but I think it needs careful evaluation by each community as to how this technology would be most appropriate for them. They use electricity and phones and fax machines, and other appliances and conveniences of technology in convents, so it only makes sense to me to use Internet technology in a way that utilises its advantages without succumbing to its drawbacks.

Communication is the main feature of the Internet. St Teresa sent hundreds of letters to people. I don't think she would object to using a more efficient and cost effective (good for holy poverty) method of communication, but she had enough common sense to know that something like would need to be used in a controlled way. I know a lot of active communities have found the right marriage of technology and tradition. I think that cloisters are still trying to learn how to do this. Mother mentioned as much to me before I left WV, saying that we needed as a community to examine an 'email policy'. They don't currenly have personal email for the nuns, and I understand why, for all the reasons that mantellata menitoned, especially during formation. But for a solemnly professed nun, it seems that a certain amount of self-discipline can be expected when using email.

As for the Internet - it only makes sense to me to use it as a research tool when necessary - like a library. Most cloistered nuns are too busy to spend unreasonable amounts of time online anyway. But during their personal time, it only makes sense to dash off an email or look something up online. I am not talking Facebook or other social media necessarily (although some active communities use this media quite well) but simply to be able to Google something. When we were doing our entertainment for Mother's Feast Day, we didn't have a copy of some sheet music for certain songs, so I went online (as a live-in visitor, Mother allowed this) and located the music for them.

I'm all for being flexible about this topic. Formation is a time when one does need to focus more on the interior life and on relationships in the community but I don't think that the occasional email should be any more of a problem than the occasional phone call or letter. My opinion only.

[OnlySunshine]

I'm friends with my Sisters on Facebook. The one who is the most active is rarely online for more than a few minutes because she works as a nurse and has really odd hours. Even the 1st year novice is on Facebook but she mostly communicates with her family while she is overseas at the Motherhouse. All of them are very prudent on their use of technology. I'm thinking of giving up Facebook because I don't have much use for it anymore but my friend's mother posts pictures of her Carmelite daughter which I love to see. I don't get any letters from my friend because she is only allowed to write family and 1 friend per month. This is the way I keep tabs on her progress.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1353630888' post='2514957']
I'm friends with my Sisters on Facebook. The one who is the most active is rarely online for more than a few minutes because she works as a nurse and has really odd hours. Even the 1st year novice is on Facebook but she mostly communicates with her family while she is overseas at the Motherhouse. All of them are very prudent on their use of technology. I'm thinking of giving up Facebook because I don't have much use for it anymore but my friend's mother posts pictures of her Carmelite daughter which I love to see. I don't get any letters from my friend because she is only allowed to write family and 1 friend per month. This is the way I keep tabs on her progress.
[/quote]

Common sense use of Internet and email - sounds sensible. Cloisters need to stop being afraid of it, and use it within set limits.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1353631117' post='2514963']
Common sense use of Internet and email - sounds sensible. Cloisters need to stop being afraid of it, and use it within set limits.
[/quote]

I know of several people who think that because a community is cloistered, they should not have internet or email at all. I think there is too much misunderstanding of cloistered communities. So many people are online so it's a great way to attract vocations if you have a website. My Sisters recently updated their website after 4 years of non-activity and it helps because now they are attracting more vocations than they did before.

[mantellata]

I like how Sr. Mary Catharine of Summit mentions that they use email (post initial formation) because it saves on stamps! It's true!

[emmaberry101]

I love the fact that my Sisters use typewriters! Benefactors are very kind in sending stamps and writing materials when they realize my Sisters use snail-mail exclusively.

I think the mistake, whichever side of the coin you fall on, is to say that "this" is right for all religious. What is right concerning the World Wide Web for the DSMME may not (is not, more like!) be right for cloistered nuns.

It is definitely something to inquire about when visiting communities!

Edited November 23, 2012 by emmaberry101

[Nunsense]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1353631658' post='2514966']
I know of several people who think that because a community is cloistered, they should not have internet or email at all. I think there is too much misunderstanding of cloistered communities. So many people are online so it's a great way to attract vocations if you have a website. My Sisters recently updated their website after 4 years of non-activity and it helps because now they are attracting more vocations than they did before.
[/quote]


Well, that is one of the reasons that I updated the WV website. I told Mother that they should have lots of vocations because they are such a wonderful community and she asked why I thought they didn't. I know, I know, God sends vocations, but he also converts the world, and He asks us to help Him in the process. So I said that young women today always looked online, and they responded to things like web presence and how easy it is to communicate with a community. She asked me to update a site that hadn't been done in over 7 years (since before I was there the first time) and she said she thought regular updates would be nice too. After all, Notting Hill has a very professional website and frequent updates and they have quite a few new vocations. I don't know about retention rates, but then that is a different thing altogether - what is the community like once a person actually enters and starts to live the life? It's a bit like the resume gets one an interview and the interview gets one the job. But without the right resume, no interview.

And I agree that there is sometimes this 'romantic' notion about cloistered nuns that tries to put them into a box of should and should not. Some people judge a community's worthiness by how 'old fashioned' they appear to be - almost as if having an 'Amish' mentality makes one more holy. Believe me, as one who has lived in quite a few religious communities, there's more to the living the life than just a beautiful old monastery or set in stone traditions. As in all things, common sense and balance are the real treasures of religious life. Otherwise the 'pharisee' in us all tries to take over. One of my friend's aunties used to say 'A rule is a rule and a law is a law.' because rules mattered to her more than anything. But Jesus said, 'The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.' Mk 2:27 meaning that rules need to be applied to help us not hold us back. I love tradition and it should never be thrown out for no reason, but when we look at something like this, where the actual reality is nothing the original founder could ever have imagined, we have to use common sense. And as emma points out - each community has to make those choices based on their own needs and situation. I would hate to see a community die off simply because they refused to even consider Internet use, but if a community has no need of it, then of course there is no conflict.


Just a note, the WV old link is still in place and I need to get Mother checking into that soon. The sister who has access to the old site needs to change the url to redirect to the new site, but she is also very busy. So all in time, but at least the new site is available, even if it isn't the only site!

[emmaberry101]

Okay, I feel the need to state that two of the most successful cloisters (both in attracting and keeping vocations) in the US are communities who do not use the internet. One does not even have a website, I believe. There is no purpose in saying that some orders are trying to be old-fashioned or that girls enter just for that, although this can certainly be the case. Again, the real error and pharisaical mentality comes with putting all cloistered or active religious in a box concerning the internet.

It says a lot about a religious and/or a community when they are confident enough to not be overly-concerned or flippant concerning others who choose to do things differently. Overall, the internet should not be that much of an issue. If a community has made it a sort "idol-we will not bow down" type thing by choosing not (edit: to) do it, then that is cause for concern. If a community has made the internet an idol because they use it, then that is an issue as well..which comes to the main point nunsense, Mater, and others are making here, that balance is key for any community.

Edited November 23, 2012 by emmaberry101

[Nunsense]

[quote name='emmaberry101' timestamp='1353635434' post='2515006']
Okay, I feel the need to state that two of the most successful cloisters (both in attracting and keeping vocations) in the US are communities who do not use the internet. One does not even have a website, I believe. There is no purpose in saying that some orders are trying to be old-fashioned or that girls enter just for that, although this can certainly be the case. Again, the real error and pharisaical mentality comes with putting all cloistered or active religious in a box concerning the internet.

It says a lot about a religious and/or a community when they are confident enough to not be overly-concerned or flippant concerning others who choose to do things differently. Overall, the internet should not be that much of an issue. If a community has made it a sort "idol-we will not bow down" type thing by choosing not (edit: to) do it, then that is cause for concern. If a community has made the internet an idol because they use it, then that is an issue as well..which comes to the main point nunsense, Mater, and others are making here, that balance is key for any community.
[/quote]

I think that's what my post was trying to say. I hope you didn't misunderstand it to be a criticism against those who choose not to use the Internet because they don't need to?

'Common sense is the guide to the virtues.' This is in the Carmelite Rule of St Albert, so I completely agree with you that neither position should be made an idol.

That being said, it is also just as easy to worship at the shrine of 'no technology' as it is to do the opposite and assume that technology use is the only reason for a lack of vocations. I certainly didn't intend to come across that way. I mentioned what I did because I do believe that a website can certainly provide information for those who are discerning religious life, and if one is set up, then it should be maintained and updated as necessary.

No hidden agenda there at all, really.

I am a big believer in the concept that one size does NOT fit all.


PS - I also think that sometimes (SOMETIMES) the romatic ideal of religious life can overshadow the reality of religious life and those communities who fit that romantic ideal appear to be somehow more 'real or valid' than those that chose to live in today's world. Yes, balance is the key IMO.

Edited November 23, 2012 by nunsense

[Nunsense]

What I would hate to see here is a polarisation of sides and feeling defensive about any type of community. When I first went to WV, it mattered a great deal to me that they still wear the full traditional habit. I haven't changed my opinion on that even though I have lived in communities that don't (including one Carmelite community). The habit did not make the nun at all - there are truly holy women in all of the communities where I have lived. I stil prefer the full habit. That's just a personal preference, but I wouldn't judge any community on that alone. If my community ever votes to change the habit, I would have to live with that.

The whole Internet debate is similar. For me, a former computer teacher, the Internet is a tool. To some people it isn't something they would like to see in a cloister. There is room for both points of view. And all of us who choose to enter religious life will no doubt have to live with some things that we may not necessarily agree with. I didn't mean to put down 'traditional' communities as mine is very traditional compared with most of the Carmels in England these days. It isn't a 1990 Carmel, but it still has things that many of the other 1991 Carmels have said goodbye to, like using the term Mother for the Superior and wearing the full habit, and many other things. On the other hand, they keep their minds open to changes that might be beneficial to the community as well. They are traditional and they try to use common sense. That's all I hope for from any community.

Edited November 23, 2012 by nunsense

[emmaberry101]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1353635770' post='2515013']
I think that's what my post was trying to say. I hope you didn't misunderstand it to be a criticism against those who choose not to use the Internet because they don't need to?

'Common sense is the guide to the virtues.' This is in the Carmelite Rule of St Albert, so I completely agree with you that neither position should be made an idol.

That being said, it is also just as easy to worship at the shrine of 'no technology' as it is to do the opposite and assume that technology use is the only reason for a lack of vocations. I certainly didn't intend to come across that way. [b]I mentioned what I did because I do believe that a website can certainly provide information for those who are discerning religious life, and if one is set up, then it should be maintained and updated as necessary.[/b]

No hidden agenda there at all, really.

I am a big believer in the concept that one size does NOT fit all.


PS - I also think that sometimes (SOMETIMES) the romatic ideal of religious life can overshadow the reality of religious life and those communities who fit that romantic ideal appear to be somehow more 'real or valid' than those that chose to live in today's world. Yes, balance is the key IMO.
[/quote]

I feel bad only replying to the bold, because your posts had a ton of good "meat" in them, but I really liked the bolded bit.

I totally agree!.. And most communities who do not use email or the internet still have a website, even if it is run by friends. Please forgive me for misunderstanding your point (I thought you were speaking of communities who do not use the internet, I think now I understand that you were speaking of those who do not even have a website.) The more I am on VS, (edit: the) more I realize that, more often than not, I misunderstand what people are saying.

I don't know what part of the world you are in, but have a blessed Thanksgiving (2 hours left of it where I am)!

Edited November 23, 2012 by emmaberry101

[Nunsense]

emma - what you have to understand is that my opinions are just that - opinions, and no more or less valid than anyone else's opinions. But we all have a right to have them and to express them and hopefully we are all mature enough not to take offence at the opinions of others, even if we disagree. I think we are understanding each other a little better now though, and that's great. Online communication isn't easy and misunderstandings do occur, so it's good when we can discuss things like this without getting upset.

I have no problems with communities who even choose NOT to have a website or who don't want to change or update their websites, but it is certainly something that I would look at if the community was having problems attracting vocations. Not because I think it is the answer to those problems, but because I think it MIGHT help a community. I have seen too many communities in the past five years that have had to either close down or merge with others and I wondered if things might have improved had they had a better online presence before things got so desperate. I don't know. I would just think that trying everything possible (but arising out of prayer) would make sense. God's will may be for some communities to close or merge, for whatever reason, but our effort is never wasted. I would say that most religious communities have some form of Internet presence these days, even if this is only a mention on their association website or other type of information site. And yes, many communities have a friend or benefactor who sets up a site for them, that often isn't changed for many years.

But this actually takes us a little away from the focus of the OP I think, which was about communication and the Internet and limiting of Internet access and emails in the community. This a different thing entirely and can only be determined by the individual communities themselves, as they strive to interpret their various founders' charisms and intent in their own ways. I know more about Carmelites than Poor Clares, but even within the Carmelite community, no two communities view this situation exactly the same way. What might work for one community, won't do so for another. So that is why each Superior, her council and the chapter really have to make this determination within their own community, whatever our individual opinions might be about it.




BTW - I am in Australia, where they don't have a Thanksgiving holiday, but my family will all be getting together to celebrate it on Sunday because we are American. Happy TG to you too!

Edited November 23, 2012 by nunsense

[OnlySunshine]

If you want a solid example of cloistered communities attracting vocations with NO internet presence, look at:

Carmelites in Buffalo, NY
Carmelites in Valparaiso, NE (bursting at the seams!)
Carmelites in Elysburg, PA

Buffalo is represented in the website for the St. Joseph Association, but I was assured by Mother Miriam that they do not use internet or email for anything. They are entirely traditional. I was very attracted to them and I know for a fact that they have had several entrances in the past few years.

Then you look at orders like DSMME who attract vocations from a large internet presence and you can see that it doesn't depend entirely on whether the community uses the internet or not. It's important to keep a healthy perspective and not pigeon-hole communities for rules you think they should follow. Each community has to decide for themselves whether or not to use the technology available. I totally understand the need for some cloistered order to keep the "traditional" methods of writing snail mail and using the phone because of their love of austerity. But I also understand orders who benefit immensely from online presence.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1353644979' post='2515107']
If you want a solid example of cloistered communities attracting vocations with NO internet presence, look at:

Carmelites in Buffalo, NY
Carmelites in Valparaiso, NE (bursting at the seams!)
Carmelites in Elysburg, PA

Buffalo is represented in the website for the St. Joseph Association, but I was assured by Mother Miriam that they do not use internet or email for anything. They are entirely traditional. I was very attracted to them and I know for a fact that they have had several entrances in the past few years.

Then you look at orders like DSMME who attract vocations from a large internet presence and you can see that it doesn't depend entirely on whether the community uses the internet or not. It's important to keep a healthy perspective and not pigeon-hole communities for rules you think they should follow. Each community has to decide for themselves whether or not to use the technology available. I totally understand the need for some cloistered order to keep the "traditional" methods of writing snail mail and using the phone because of their love of austerity. But I also understand orders who benefit immensely from online presence.
[/quote]


I think you are right there. There are so many other factors that affect vocations too. Just a couple of these include the country where the monastery is located and the level of secularism in the culture of that country. Australia is NOT friendly to more traditional communities, especially those that wear a habit, but there are still some of these doing well here, including some that have motherhouses in other countries (like the Tyburn nuns or the Nashville Dominicans). In the US, more 'new' communities seem to arise than in any other country, and many of these are doing very well. Vocations to religious life and the priesthood seem to be doing very well in places like Afica and Asia as well.

I just don't think that one can generalize about any of this overall, but that doesn't stop us from theorizing does it? And why not? It is a topic close to our hearts or we wouldn't be here on the VS!

[juchu]

Coming back to the original topic about whether or not to have internet access and leaving out the "attracting vocations part".

I am a postulant at a protestant community, something like you would call "semi contemplative" - actually we say we are contemplative, but non cloistered.

I am allowed to use the internet, both for email and for information and it will be like this during the novitiate as well - but the simple fact is that I do not have a lot of time for all this.

My personal opinion is, that I have learned that "internet" is not sooo important buy having to find my own balance. And also I am finding that I am using it less and less. There is nothing like a "rule" oh you just have 30 minutes a day or something, it is ME who has to find the balance - and it is like this with other things as well... actually I feel taken very seriously and as an adult by doing so. If these things become less and less importnat to me (it is the same with sexuality, "earthly possessions and my own will.... ) it shows me that I am in the right place, instead of having a rule imposed on me.

My two cents.

And now I am off to clean the guests rooms, very contemplative and prayerfully