Family Visits, Parents Upset - Should This Determine The Monastery I C

[Eumeia]

Hello, I am having a difficulty that I would very much like help with. 

 

I am in the middle of applying to enter the Carmel of Jesus, Mary and Joseph - I am about to mail them all the health forms and such so that they can consider me for entrance. However, ever since these forms arrived yesterday my mother has been a wreck. She didn't sleep all last night, and today she has been constantly teary-eyed.

 

Her objection is this - Since the Carmel in Nebraska has a new branch in California just starting, she is afraid that if I were accepted I might one day be transferred to California. - And that would make trips for family visits far too expensive. She tells me my vow of poverty would impoverish my family.

 

This gives me so much grief. I do very much want to enter this Carmel - My mother really wants me to look to the Benedictines of Mary, Queen of Apostles instead, since they don't have the possibility of transferring me far away and Missouri would still be a reasonable distance for us.

 

What I really am struggling to know is whether this is an aspect I ought to take seriously into account in discerning to which monastery I am called. I just don't know - I am willing to make these sacrifices, in giving up close frequent contact with my family, but my mother's grief and despair makes me fear that it would be wrong for me to inflict this. Should family visits be the deciding factor? Even though I am more drawn to the Carmel?

 

I'd like to know also if anyone knows how different the Benedictines of Mary are regarding family visits. I think both monasteries allow two visits a year. With the Benedictines is there a grille also? - I'm curious since I know much less about them than I do the Carmelites.

[Antigonos]

I don't want to sound heartless, but this seems to me to be THEIR problem, not yours.  You will be spending the rest of your life, hopefully, in your chosen community.  No one [I assume] enters a convent thinking the way a military recruit does -- that with any luck, you'll have a series of interesting postings abroad.  One enters a specific place, and I suppose when told to move to another, it must involve a certain amount of sacrifice, just as renouncing secular life does.  Yet, for love of God, one is prepared to do this.

 

Your parents are having trouble cutting their end of the "silver umbilical cord".  Understandable, but where you enter is not up to them.  When I moved to Israel we all knew that we'd see each other, with luck, only every several years.  It costs a lot to fly to the US, and twice as much for my parents to visit me.  At the time telephone conversations were also almost prohibitively expensive [$4 per minute!].  We survived on monthly cassette tapes.  There are lots of people, in lots of situations that have nothing to do with religion, who have prolonged separations from their families.  Not easy, but doable, and it's not for your parents, who probably are unconscious of the distress they are causing you, to lay that kind of guilt trip on you, unless you are legally underage and therefore are legally [and possibly financially] dependent on them.  If that's the case, then you need to be firm, but clear, that you will be willing to wait until you are legally an adult, but in the last analysis, your life is yours to live.

[Antigonos]

I don't want to sound heartless, but this seems to me to be THEIR problem, not yours.  You will be spending the rest of your life, hopefully, in your chosen community.  No one [I assume] enters a convent thinking the way a military recruit does -- that with any luck, you'll have a series of interesting postings abroad.  One enters a specific place, and I suppose when told to move to another, it must involve a certain amount of sacrifice, just as renouncing secular life does.  Yet, for love of God, one is prepared to do this.

 

Your parents are having trouble cutting their end of the "silver umbilical cord".  Understandable, but where you enter is not up to them.  When I moved to Israel we all knew that we'd see each other, with luck, only every several years.  It costs a lot to fly to the US, and twice as much for my parents to visit me.  At the time telephone conversations were also almost prohibitively expensive [$4 per minute!].  We survived on monthly cassette tapes.  There are lots of people, in lots of situations that have nothing to do with religion, who have prolonged separations from their families.  Not easy, but doable, and it's not for your parents, who probably are unconscious of the distress they are causing you, to lay that kind of guilt trip on you, unless you are legally underage and therefore are legally [and possibly financially] dependent on them.  If that's the case, then you need to be firm, but clear, that you will be willing to wait until you are legally an adult, but in the last analysis, your life is yours to live.

[Antigonos]

I don't want to sound heartless, but this seems to me to be THEIR problem, not yours.  You will be spending the rest of your life, hopefully, in your chosen community.  No one [I assume] enters a convent thinking the way a military recruit does -- that with any luck, you'll have a series of interesting postings abroad.  One enters a specific place, and I suppose when told to move to another, it must involve a certain amount of sacrifice, just as renouncing secular life does.  Yet, for love of God, one is prepared to do this.

 

Your parents are having trouble cutting their end of the "silver umbilical cord".  Understandable, but where you enter is not up to them.  When I moved to Israel we all knew that we'd see each other, with luck, only every several years.  It costs a lot to fly to the US, and twice as much for my parents to visit me.  At the time telephone conversations were also almost prohibitively expensive [$4 per minute!].  We survived on monthly cassette tapes.  There are lots of people, in lots of situations that have nothing to do with religion, who have prolonged separations from their families.  Not easy, but doable, and it's not for your parents, who probably are unconscious of the distress they are causing you, to lay that kind of guilt trip on you, unless you are legally underage and therefore are legally [and possibly financially] dependent on them.  If that's the case, then you need to be firm, but clear, that you will be willing to wait until you are legally an adult, but in the last analysis, your life is yours to live.

[Antigonos]

I don't want to sound heartless, but this seems to me to be THEIR problem, not yours.  You will be spending the rest of your life, hopefully, in your chosen community.  No one [I assume] enters a convent thinking the way a military recruit does -- that with any luck, you'll have a series of interesting postings abroad.  One enters a specific place, and I suppose when told to move to another, it must involve a certain amount of sacrifice, just as renouncing secular life does.  Yet, for love of God, one is prepared to do this.

 

If there is one thing I've learned during my time here in the phorum, it is that Carmelite spirituality and the Benedictine approach are different.  If you are drawn to the Carmelites, it is quite possible that even if the convent was next door, you would not feel called to the Benedictine life -- something perhaps your parents don't understand.

 

Your parents are having trouble cutting their end of the "silver umbilical cord".  Understandable, but where you enter is not up to them.  When I moved to Israel we all knew that we'd see each other, with luck, only every several years.  It costs a lot to fly to the US, and twice as much for my parents to visit me.  At the time telephone conversations were also almost prohibitively expensive [$4 per minute!].  We survived on monthly cassette tapes.  There are lots of people, in lots of situations that have nothing to do with religion, who have prolonged separations from their families.  Not easy, but doable, and it's not for your parents, who probably are unconscious of the distress they are causing you, to lay that kind of guilt trip on you, unless you are legally underage and therefore are legally [and possibly financially] dependent on them.  If that's the case, then you need to be firm, but clear, that you will be willing to wait until you are legally an adult, but in the last analysis, your life is yours to live, and you are not required to live the life your parents choose for you.

 

BTW, the phorum is running slowly again, and it's hard to post.  Anyone else have this problem?

 

 

Edited November 29, 2012 by Antigonos

[cmaD2006]

 

Her objection is this - Since the Carmel in Nebraska has a new branch in California just starting, she is afraid that if I were accepted I might one day be transferred to California. - And that would make trips for family visits far too expensive. She tells me my vow of poverty would impoverish my family.

 

This gives me so much grief. I do very much want to enter this Carmel -

 

 

Ok my personal take ... your mom is worrying about something that hasn't happened.  Try to convince her/reassure her that (at least for now) that won't happen.  You have absolutely no idea if you will be moved to California, at all.  In fact I would say that in all likelihood for the next 3-4 years you will probably be in Nebraska.

 

And to be realistic ... lets say you did enter the other order.  Who's to say that the order won't start a convent in Japan?  Just saying.

 

Finally it is your vocation.  If you were falling in love with a guy, and the guy was raised in California but lived in Nebraska, would you worry about your mom not being able to visit you if you both chose to move to california in 5 years?

 

Praying for you

[maximillion]

I don't want to sound harsh either, but ultimately this is not about your Mom, or even about you, it's about God!

 

Is God asking you to enter Carmel, is that where you have discerned He wants you to be? 

I can't help but feel that in even entertaining the notion that you might enter somewhere else in consideration of your parents that you are somehow not quite at the point where love of God and following Him is your ALL.

 

Again, I am sorry if this comes over as judgemental but you have not phrased your question in such a way that indicates you would follow Him anywhere, anywhere at all no matter the cost to you or to your Mom, and as Antigonos said, this is in effect you permitting your Mom's worries for a future that is not here yet to get in the way of God's will.

It is hard for family, very hard for parents, that is part of the sacrifice of your life to God, that you set aside your parents good wishes for you..........

 

Are your parents Catholic, can you get them to talk to someone in the Church about this?

In addition, as has been mentioned elsewhere, there is no guarantee that wherever you enter won't end up making a Foundation elsewhere.......so you are no better or no worse off wherever you enter.

 

I pray for you and your family, that your Mom comes to accept God's Will in your life (which is also therefore His Will for her life), but also, if she can't, that you have the strength and grace to follow where He leads - wherever and however that may be. 

[emmaberry101]

I don't have any advice, but do God's will. If you know this Carmel is your home, follow that. If you are unsure, then look into the Benedictines of Mary and maybe other Carmel's. what a difficult situation to be in. My prayers are with you.

[OnlySunshine]

Peter said to him, "We have left everything to follow you!"  "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields--and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life." -- Mark 10:28-30

 

You do not "choose" the monastery you are called to.  If you feel the draw to the Carmel in Nebraska, it is likely that God is calling you there.  I know your mother is facing intense separation anxiety, but this is essential -- that you apply to the monastery you feel called to the most.  It does not matter if it is so far away that your mother and family won't be able to visit.  What matters is your commitment to answering the call that God has given you.  Would you be willing to follow Him to the ends of the earth, away from your family and friends?  Would you give up everything in order to live a life of sacrifice?  Your mother will have to be separated from you sooner or later.  If you got married, she'd have to visit and it could not be assured that you'd always live close to home even then.  While your mother may have the best intentions at heart, she is being selfish.  Follow your heart -- where is it leading you?

Edited November 29, 2012 by MaterMisericordiae

[StClare_OraProNobis]

People whose children enter monasteries, especially cloistered ones, make a tremendous sacrifice.  Be gentle with you mom.  At the same time, you do need to enter where God is calling you.  Peace to you!  I will say a prayer for you and your family.  

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

 

Her objection is this - Since the Carmel in Nebraska has a new branch in California just starting, she is afraid that if I were accepted I might one day be transferred to California. - And that would make trips for family visits far too expensive.

 

I can tell you that they wouldn't send you to California; this foundation is finished now (as far as sending Sisters there from Nebraska, but there is still much to be done in California.) So you would be there to stay in Nebraska once you entered. However, with the growing number of girls entering, and they are still over 21 there now, most likely in the future they will make another foundation. Where that would be, only God knows right now. :)

 

I can only imagine how much of a suffering this is for your mother, and you also having to see her this way. But as others on here have said, that you need to go where He wants you. Your mother can't choose the place, not even you, but where Our Lord chooses. You have discerned with this community and know you want to enter, and the Superiors also agreed that you could enter then this is a good sign that you should. You may find that this is your home, or you may find that you are called elsewhere. We can't count the sacrifices that we make when we enter the religious life; we should know though that whatever we give to Our Lord would never be enough compared to what He has given us. Look at Him on the Cross and see what He has done for you; then what we we do for Him seems as nothing. This doesn't make the suffering less; it can be great or little but we are able to bear it because of His love and grace. Trust in Him so much in this matter. He will take care of your mother; and in Carmel you will pray for her of course. He will use those prayers also to help her.

[Totally Franciscan]

Beautiful posts above!  Good advice as well!  The odds of you being transferred to the California Carmel are nil.  The first set of 5 (I believe) professed sisters came a few months ago, then another set of 5 (I believe) novices arrived.  That would make 10.  There really is no need for further nuns to make this foundation, but they will accept vocations as God calls them to the California Carmel.  However, this is not really the point.  As others have posted, you must go where God intends you to be for your salvation.  He has a plan for you and that includes the Carmel or other monastery that He has chosen for your home.  You need to discern this, and it sounds like you already have, since you are sending in your paperwork already.  Perhaps this will give your mother comfort.  Talk to her about it.  Perhaps your parish priest can talk to her and put her heart at ease.  Also, perhaps a phone call from the superior or novice mistress to your mother will also put her mind at ease.  Most importantly, pray for wisdom on helping your mother accept God's plan for your life. 

[Feankie]

I have to reiterate the above posts.  You must go where God wants you, not where it would be more convenient for family visits. Is your mother comfortable with you entering religious life?  Or could it be that it is a convenient way to vocalize her objection/s in a passive/aggressive way?  It is your life, always remember that.  And if Carmel is the spirituality you're drawn to, you would never be happy trying to live out another spirituality in a different monastery.  My prayers are with you.

[krissylou]

What everyone else said.  Both about recognizing this is really hard and being gentle with your mom and also you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

People entering active communities should expect to be transferred from one convent to another over time.  But monasteries are a different beast.  Benedictines may actually make a "vow of stability" but nobody enters a monastery EXPECTING to be transferred to another one.  That's not what a monastery is.  So (for instance) a Jesuit priest may well teach at Santa Clara (California), Loyola (New Orleans), John Carroll (Cleveland), Georgetown (Washington DC) and Boston College (duh) over the course of his ministry.  (Okay probably not ALL of those but you get the idea.)  This is normal.  But the Latin-loving Carmelite nuns don't rotate around in between Valparaiso and Elysburg and California.  That's not what a monastery is.

 

(Maybe your mom doesn't understand this distinction?  Most of us are more familiar with active communities so it could be an easy mistake to make.)

 

That having been said, new foundations do occur.  If Valparaiso continues to be bursting at the seams with vocations they may well make more foundations and who knows where that'll be.  (At some point ideally the women who would have wanted to enter Valparaiso will be spread out between Valparaiso and Elysburg and California and wherever else comes next and it'll all sort of take care of itself but who knows when that will be.)

 

And the same could happen with the Benedictines of Mary.  They make a "vow of stability" but that's to stay with the SAME COMMUNITY not in the SAME LOCATION.  And sometimes Benedictines send out foundations too.  Otherwise every Benedictine in the world would be in Monte Cassino.  And that would be crowded.

 

For this particular community, they were founded in Pennsylvania and moved to Missouri about ten years later.  Is it LIKELY that they'd pick up again and move like that?  No.  Is it POSSIBLE?  Yes.

 

And is it possible that they'll get an influx of vocations too so that they send out foundations somewhere else?  Sure.  They aren't there yet but they are a young community and have a steady stream of vocations so it's very possible at some point they'll say "okay, we're as big as we want to be.  Time to spread this Latin-loving Benedictine goodness around!"  (probably not using that phrasing, but you get the idea.)

 

On the other side of things, a friend of mine made perpetual profession as a Benedictine Sister (active) a couple years ago.  Her monastery has been around for 150+ years.  At their biggest in the early 1960s they had 500 Sisters.  When she entered they had about 200, now they have about 160.  (Not because people are choosing to leave in droves but because communities that were that big decades ago will have a lot of funerals now, that's just the way it works.  And they have a steady stream of vocations but 1955 is not coming back anytime soon.)  Maybe in future decades they'll have a few dozen.  Where will they be?  Who knows?

 

There aren't a lot of certainties in religious life,  Or, heck, in life in general.

[TheresaThoma]

I think mothers just have a way of getting under our skins and that can really hurt when their desires conflict with ours. Like others above have said there is no guarantee that even if you enter somewhere closer to home that you will stay there. For example the Benedictine community at Regina Laudis (in CT) made a foundation all the way across the country on Shaw Island, WA. This was probably not what the nuns who started the Shaw Island foundation were expecting when they entered Regina Laudis.

To keep it in perspective even outside of religious life we sometimes have to move farther away than we would like, you could have to move for work or if you married someone from another state. 

Overall you just have to follow where you feel God is calling you. Since you are at the application stage I would say that you have a good degree of certainty that God is calling you to this Carmel. Also keep in mind that the devil is going to try to prevent you from following God's will and sometimes he will use those closest to us to plant doubts and discourage us. 

 

A while back there was a thread with the pamphlet/short book/selection "Shall my daughter be a nun". (See link)

https://picasaweb.google.com/113228112367147112557/ShallMyDaughterBeANunByDanielALord#

I think it might help if you (and perhaps your mom) could read it.

 

Prayers!

[Nunsense]

I see a couple of issues here and perhaps it would help your mother if they were addressed in a logical, practical way because right now her emotions are overwhelming her reason.

 

First, none of us can see the future. That's why Jesus says, 'Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.' Mt 6:34

 

The future that your mother worries about will probably never happen. Carmelite nuns aren't usually forced to leave their community to set up a new foundation or even to join an existing one. They are often asked if they would like to do do. But even if it does come about the way she imagines, her situation might not be the same as it is now either. None of us know the future. If she could try to focus on now and what convent would be best for you today, she could leave the rest in God's hands and trust that He knows her concerns and loves her as much as He loves you.

 

The other thing you personally need to think about it is your calling. The spirituality of the Carmelites is very different from the spirituality of the Benedictines and a person who is called for one way of life might find the other unbearable. If you enter a community where you do not necessarily feel called, then you might find yourself quite unable to persevere in religious life and then end up feeling as if you have failed.

 

Perhaps you could discuss the issue of spirituality and different charisms with your mother and explain why you feel particularly drawn to the Carmelite life. Or, you could do a live-in visit with a Benedictine community and see how you feel about their life and spirituality. I can't stress too much - they are not the same! Some people are naturally drawn to Benedictine life and others to Carmel, and it isn't as if religious communities are mix and match outfits.

 

And if you haven't discerned your own spirituality yet, maybe you do need to take a step back and do more visits before you proceed, and speak either with a spiritual director or the superiors of some communities to understand the differences. There are probably going to be a lot of obstacles (challenges) along the way, so deal with each one as it comes up by completely trusting God.

 

PS - Has your mother been involved in discernment with you? Maybe she should go with you on a visit and speak with the superior, get to know the community and also get some strength and support from them?

Edited November 29, 2012 by nunsense

[TIWW]

Eumeia, Not sure of your age or if you are currently living at home. I agree with the advice Nunsense has offered. If you are still dependent on your parents, hopefully they have been in on your vocational journey from the start. And if so, that will ease  some concerns they might have. Have you participated in any "Come and See" type of experiences yet with any community? These are very helpful in looking at the different aspects of living the life. If you do not already have a Spiritual Director or Parish Priest you can talk with, this might help with some of your questions about future religious life. Many, not all communities like to have people get some experience in the work place and / or  finish their college education, prior to making this kind of life commitment.

[MarieLynn]

As a former Religious, who is now a mother and grandmother, I can see both sides.

 

From my entrance day at the tender age of 17, I was required to be in another country for my entire formation and beyond.   My mother saw me once in the 6 yrs, and that was when I received 'my obedience' and was posted back to my own country, not to my hometown, but another city.   Even then we were literally hundreds of miles apart!      

Mum knew when I decided I wanted to be a Religious, that I would be in another country, and that she may never see me again.  The sisters were very good, explained everything to her in great detail, she was always welcome to ring with questions, (and there were many), visits to the convent were encouraged, so that she could see for herself what their life was about, and after I entered, they kept in touch and relayed little snippets of news about my progress.   When I was Clothed, she was sent a film reel which was taken at the actual ceremony, so she could see it for herself.   I know my mother missed me terribly, and I missed her as well, but she never put any pressure on me either subtle or obvious, to stay within reach. 

Jesus had said, "Give everything you possess to the poor, and come follow me", and as that 'following'  had to be done in another country, she accepted it and stepped aside so that I could follow Him.

 

Now years later, I am experiencing some of what my mother must have felt.

My  2 children are married now, and have their own children.  I was devastated when my daughter and son-in-law decided to move to the other end of the country, taking the 3 'grandies' with them.   It hurt, and I missed them so much!  I knew I would not be able to visit with them whenever I wanted, as I had been used to doing, but I value the times when I do visit, and make sure that those are quality time visits.  Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that we have to take a step back, and let our children go, and do whatever  it is that they have to do.

 

Talk to your Mom Eumeia, and if it is Carmel that you are being called to, - follow His call.   If it is His will that you enter there, or somewhere else entirely, do not lose sight of the fact that He wants you there.   Your mom will come around  when she sees that you are happy  - you'll see.   Mothers can be, and are, very protective of their offspring.   They only want what is best for you.  What she is going through at the moment is a 'knee jerk' reaction to the fact that you may not be within reach all of the time.   Go where your heart is leading you, not where others think you should go.

    

[He is Risen!]

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents, I was with a community for a while and during discernment and when I entered, mom was a wreck.  She said all kinds of crazy things, cried buckets, and eventually (it took a very long time) found peace with it.  My superior would say that when a soul follows the will of God, grace will come from it, even if it hurts.  She was right.  A scripture that helped me a lot was the one in Matthew: â€œDo not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ³⁵ For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
³⁶     a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’^[c]

³⁷ â€œAnyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. ³⁸ Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. ³⁹ Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

 

I'm praying for you!

[Kateri89]

Eumeia, first of all, I will pray for both you and your mother.  I have a feeling that I will be experiencing something very similar with my mother when I finally enter.  In any case, I think of Jesus accepting the Father's will that He be sent to die on the cross.  His grieving mother accepted her burden just as she had consented to the angel Gabriel.  Mary knew that Jesus would submit to the Father's will and this submission meant that she would have to be separated from her Son completely until they reunited in Heaven.  Certainly Jesus also knew the agony that His suffering and death would cause His mother, but He still fulfilled God's will for His life.

 

I suppose the best advice I can give you is to pray and ask God to help you stay on the path He has chosen for you.  Then ask Him to comfort and console your mother and to show her what a tremendous gift your vocation is.  One of my favorite verses is 1 Corinthians 10:13: "No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone.  God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it."  This temptation to sacrifice God's will to ease your mother's suffering is certainly understandable but this life is fleeting and Heaven is eternal.  The suffering your mother endures here on Earth is only temporary and if she is willing to seek Jesus in her suffering, it will become much more bearable.

 

If all this isn't helpful for you, at least tell your mother to consider St. Therese.  Her father sacrificed all five of his daughters to Carmel and though it was painful for him, he considered himself incredibly blessed that God should ask him to make that sacrifice.  God doesn't will anything that is destructive so if He is calling you to Carmel, He will also take care of your mother.  God Bless!