Livin_the_MASS Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 This statement was stated by GoodFriday in another post, I quote his statement: [quote][color=red]I'm a "cafeteria Catholic" -- as is every other Catholic I've ever met, including the ones on this forum. Admitting to being a cafeteria Catholic, in my mind, is being an honest Catholic. No one agrees with 100% of what the church has always universally taught -- ask ten Catholics about Limbo, no salvation outside the church, etc. and see if you don't think I'm right.[/color][/quote] I am posting this for those who want to understand submission to the Magisterium and to help out GoodFriday with his question! If he wishes? Comments, thoughts In their Hearts Jason
Good Friday Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 [quote][b]Jason writes:[/b] I am posting this for those who want to understand submission to the Magisterium and to help out GoodFriday with his question! If he wishes?[/quote] I didn't have a question. I was stating that I'm a cafeteria Catholic, and that I believe all Catholics are, in one way or another, cafeteria Catholics. I expected that would be met with a chorus of "we submit to all that the magisterium teaches," and it was... but that doesn't change my opinion that, in fact, there is not one single living Catholic who really submits to all that the magisterium teaches, not even the pope himself. I don't have any questions about that, nor am I really looking to discuss it. It's just how I feel, after having met many Catholics who expect me to believe this or that, but then don't believe various magisterial teachings themselves.
Guest AloysiusGhost Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 ppl aren't perfect. but as Catholics we are called to fight against our imperfections. it is wrong to say i know the Church teaches such and such but i'm gonna be a cafeteria Catholic it's alright to struggle with certain issues. the fact that you're struggling with it prooves you believe in the Church's authenticity Pax Amorque CHristi i'm prayin for ya
Guest AloysiusGhost Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 by the way, Limbo was never officially taught doctrine, it's a pius explanation from the lay ppl of where unbaptized babies go. Catholic Doctrine teaches we must use our God-given conscience, but that that can be currupt, and so we must inform our conscience with the teachings of the Church. Treat the Church as a teacher who is much wiser than you, and learn from her. If you disagree with her, look into it. Delve deep into Her reasons for teaching you this, always with a trust in Her as your teacher and guide. If you cant figure out why she's right, that doesn't mean she's not. In humility and obedience you can logically assume that it's more likely you're wrong and she's right, more likely you're just not seeing it either clouded by desires or you're just not smart enough to understand. but that's okay. when it gets to be wrong is when you know the Church teaches such and such and you're set out to change the Church. I'm gonna call a spade a spade: the biggest motivation for such ideals of changing the church is [color=red] PRIDE [/color]
amarkich Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 The statement made by the previous post, that pride is the sin that causes others to attempt to change the Church, is a great one. There is much to be said in this discussion, but it is crazy to think that no one completely believes what the Church teaches. If this were true, there would be no one in Heaven. This is leading to (if it is not already) the sin of Despair. While there are many who do not believe the Church's teachings (especially concerning Outside the Church there is no salvation), there are many people that I know who submit fully to the Church's teachings, including myself. I know that most Priests do not even believe what the Church teaches, but my Parish has two that do, and I know others that do as well. As far as the Doctrine of Limbo is concerned, it is not taught by the Church authoritatively and is not required as a belief to adhere completely to the Church's teachings, but it is the only logical deduction from what God has told us: 1) you have to be Baptized to go to Heaven 2) you cannot go to Hell without committing actual sin; therefore, an unbaptized baby could not go to either of these places, Heaven or Hell. The baby goes to Limbo as a result. Limbo is a state of natural happiness in which the pains of suffering and of loss are not felt. I simply wanted to clarify what Limbo is and to say that it is not a doctrine created by laymen. It was believed from the Church Fathers on and was explicitly explained by Saint Thomas Aquinas. God bless.
theculturewarrior Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 I submit to the magesterium of the Church, to the office of the Pope, and to the Tradition handed down through the apostles.
cmotherofpirl Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 Here at PM, all Church Militant submit to the complete authority of the Church. Its a requirement.
theculturewarrior Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 I forgot to add that statistic to mine. Thanks for reminding me Dave. I am 100% loyal. I believe it all, and should I struggle, I pray to give my assent of faith. God bless.
Good Friday Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 So you all say, but let me ask you what you think about the following subjects: 1) Communion in the hand vs. on the tongue... 2) Female altar servers... 3) No salvation outside the church... (not only do you believe in it, but what does it mean to you?) 4) Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate... 5) Latin in the Mass vs. the vernacular... That's enough for now. I know that at least one of you on this thread thinks that Communion should be received on the tongue rather than in the hand, while some of you think it's fine to receive in the hand. I know that most of you think that women shouldn't be altar servers, despite the fact that the church allows it (and there will be some who think it's fine). I know that at least one person, possibly two, on this thread interpret no salvation outside the church, one of the church's core doctrines, differently than the others on the thread -- and both sides would say that their interpretation is the correct one that is to be believed. Most on the thread will probably be fine with Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, but there are some Catholics who are not. And I know there will be at least one person in this thread who thinks the Mass should be said in Latin, even though the church allows it to be said in the vernacular. If the church teaches absolute truth, which of the above flip-flops is absolutely true? Your side or your opponent's? When you've tried to explain your way out of those disagreements with the church's teaching, we'll move on to subjects like usury, slavery, ecumenism, etc. and the contradictions of different popes' teachings and the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. That is to say, we'll move on to those things if this thread doesn't get deleted because of Catholic vs. Catholic debate, which I suspect it will. It's too bad you have to be a non-Catholic around here to doubt your faith and discuss it with the other members of Phatmass.
theculturewarrior Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 (edited) I'll pray for you, Friday. Pray for me too. Edited May 24, 2004 by theculturewarrior
Dave Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Good Friday' date='May 24 2004, 04:33 PM'] 1) Communion in the hand vs. on the tongue... 2) Female altar servers... 3) No salvation outside the church... (not only do you believe in it, but what does it mean to you?) 4) Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate... 5) Latin in the Mass vs. the vernacular... [/quote] Numbers 1, 2, and 5 have nothing to do with doctrine or dogma. Doctrine and dogma can't be changed, but Church discipline can. The Church has spoken definitively on Number 3 -- that there's no salvation outside the Church but that it doesn't mean that non-Catholics are automatically out of luck should they die without having entered the Church. Anyone who dares to claim otherwise is not in full communion with the Church no matter how much they may insist they are. As for Number 4, the Church has always taught it. The question is, should it be solemnly proclaimed as dogma? There's a lot of debate on that, but even if the Church decided not to proclaim it as such, it wouldn't mean it wasn't true. [quote]When you've tried to explain your way out of those disagreements with the church's teaching, we'll move on to subjects like usury, slavery, ecumenism, etc. and the contradictions of different popes' teachings and the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. [/quote] The Church teaching against usury has never changed. What has changed is the Church's assessment of what exactly constitutes usury. That's just an example of development of doctrine. Church doctrine develops over time, but it is never understood to mean the opposite of what it once meant. Ecumenism is another thing that had to develop. And the Church never formally condoned slavery. But it was at the forefront of those condemning slavery. And finally, Vatican II changed NONE of the teachings of the Church. Edited May 24, 2004 by Dave
mulls Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 [quote name='Good Friday' date='May 24 2004, 04:33 PM'] When you've tried to explain your way out of those disagreements with the church's teaching, we'll move on to subjects like usury, slavery, ecumenism, etc. and the contradictions of different popes' teachings and the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. That is to say, we'll move on to those things if this thread doesn't get deleted because of Catholic vs. Catholic debate, which I suspect it will. It's too bad you have to be a non-Catholic around here to doubt your faith and discuss it with the other members of Phatmass. [/quote] ooohh, gf spittin fire! i know you're not on my "side" or anyone's "side," but you bring up good points.
Paladin D Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 [quote name='Jake Huether' date='May 24 2004, 05:33 PM'] Ditto to Dave, theculturewarrior, and cmom. [/quote] I repeat... [b]Word[/b].
mulls Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 good friday, i'm also guessing you have the same point of view when it comes to Christianity in general....how people pick and choose what to believe in the bible?
jasJis Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 I've been considering not even throwing my two cents in, but I don't think I should stay silent. This was addressed eloquently by one of our priests this Sunday when he talked about the politicians and communion thing. Nobody should recieve the Eucharist with an easy conscience. We all are falling short in some way. Some people are getting the misguieded idea that they are better catholics then the politicians that are publically being chastised. They are being publically chastised because they are making their mistakes in public. One of the graces of the Eucharist is cleansing of our sins. Also, the graces to improve ourselves by joining with Jesus death to die to our sins. I ascribe to everything the Church teaches. Some I don't understand or agree with wholeheartedly or life circumstances have boxed me into situations. Being a better Christian by improving my obedience to the Holy Spirit manifested through the Church is my goal. I'm not there yet and I know nobody else (even the Pope) is a perfect Christian. Together, us humans in the Church, we will make mistakes and err, but together with the Holy Spirit, we will find Perfect Correction as we grow in obedience to God's will. The one thing to remember about Catholics is we aren't perfect until we are in Heaven. We recognize our awful need for continual grace and recognize the more than neccessary and abundunt and over-flowing grace that God provides us through the Church, through Scripture, through our Siblings in Christ, and directly in our Hearts. There is a big difference between being a perfect Catholic and working to be a better Catholic.
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 24, 2004 Author Posted May 24, 2004 I see somethings wrong with this thread already! Titles don't make anyone loyal to the Magisterium of the Church. Only by GOD'S GRACE am I loyal to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. It is a GIFT not a TITLE "Who is good but God alone." So I guess if your not "Church Militant " your not faithful to the Magisterium. psss *Shakes head* GoodFriday I am 100% loyal to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, I'll tell you how I see it. I am a child I don't know nothing, the things I do know is by God goodness, He could take it all away in a Heartbeat. We are always supposed to pray for final perseverance! God is the only One Who keeps us in a state of grace. I don't have the Saints name but their were some on there death bed who were tested in their faith in the Catholic Church. Listen to this prayer of St. Thomas Aqunias it is a prayer to Our Lady: [quote][b]"I pray also at the end of my life, you Mother without compare, Gate of Heaven, and Advocate of sinners, will not allow me, your unworthy servant, to stray from the holy Catholic Church....."[/b][/quote] It goes on, one of my favorite prayers it's a long one but a good one Your list is, hahaha, well you little stinker Some of the things you have chosen the Church has given the indivdual the option to do. Like the Communion in the hand or the tounge, some love one way some love the other way. This where I was saying you can't take imperfect opinions and use them. Both are in line of the Catholic Church. Now I know better that you have been around long enough to know about Mary or Salvation, so GF you know better Altar girls again is an option that holy Mother Church has given. Although boys are prefered but girls are still permitted. So what do we have again OPINIONS. But they are allowed because the Church has permitted it. But the prefered that was said was put prefered for a reason! Plus GF you know that doctrine develops, why your last statement? My loyality to the Magisterium is to be given credit to Jesus Christ Truly Present in the Most Blessed Sacrament, for without Him I am NOTHING!! Man oh man *sigh* In their Hearts Jason Pray for me a SINNER!!!
Good Friday Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 (edited) [color=red][Deleted by dUSt: Catholic vs Catholic Debate][/color] Edited May 24, 2004 by dUSt
dUSt Posted May 24, 2004 Posted May 24, 2004 [quote]1) Communion in the hand vs. on the tongue...[/quote] I accept and adhere to what the Church teaches. [quote]2) Female altar servers...[/quote] I accept and adhere to what the Church teaches. [quote]3) No salvation outside the church... (not only do you believe in it, but what does it mean to you?)[/quote] I accept and adhere to what the Church teaches. [quote]4) Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate...[/quote] I accept and adhere to what the Church teaches. [quote]5) Latin in the Mass vs. the vernacular...[/quote] I accept and adhere to what the Church teaches. [quote]That's enough for now. I know that at least one of you on this thread thinks that Communion should be received on the tongue rather than in the hand, while some of you think it's fine to receive in the hand.[/quote] Okay, you can [b]prefer[/b] one or the other while remaining 100% loyal to the magisterium, because the Church allows either. Now, if you do not adhere to the Church's teaching on this matter, or publically disagree with it, then you should not call yourself Catholic. [quote]I know that most of you think that women shouldn't be altar servers, despite the fact that the church allows it (and there will be some who think it's fine). [/quote] Again. You can prefer that girls don't altar serve (the Church even prefers boys over girls), but unless you refuse to submit to the Church's teaching on this matter, you remain 100% loyal to the magisterium. [quote]I know that at least one person, possibly two, on this thread interpret no salvation outside the church, one of the church's core doctrines, differently than the others on the thread -- and both sides would say that their interpretation is the correct one that is to be believed.[/quote] This has nothing to do with being faithful to the magisterium. The point your making is against correct interpretations of doctrine. The only way a person would be in violation of the magisterium, is if they were explained the correct interpretation, and then fail to accept it or recognize the Church's authority on the matter. [quote]Most on the thread will probably be fine with Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, but there are some Catholics who are not.[/quote] Okay, they shouldn't call themselves Catholic then. [quote]And I know there will be at least one person in this thread who thinks the Mass should be said in Latin, even though the church allows it to be said in the vernacular.[/quote] See my points above. As long as one accepts the Church's teaching on vernacular masses, they can prefer whatever they want. My kid [b]prefers[/b] that we eat pizza for dinner every night, but she [b]accepts[/b] it when we have meatloaf and collard greens. [quote]If the church teaches absolute truth, which of the above flip-flops is absolutely true? Your side or your opponent's?[/quote] I don't see any flip-flops. [quote]When you've tried to explain your way out of those disagreements with the church's teaching, we'll move on to subjects like usury, slavery, ecumenism, etc. and the contradictions of different popes' teachings and the teachings of the Second Vatican Council.[/quote] Nothing contradicts homeslice. [quote]That is to say, we'll move on to those things if this thread doesn't get deleted because of Catholic vs. Catholic debate, which I suspect it will.[/quote] I'll delete this thread after I'm finished with it. [quote]It's too bad you have to be a non-Catholic around here to doubt your faith and discuss it with the other members of Phatmass.[/quote] Well, you shouldn't have any problems then.
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