Why I Am No Longer An Atheist Part 2

[stevil]

 
In the absence of proof, how can one really be held accountable for one's lack of faith?

Yeah, I don't understand this aspect of religious belief.
There is no proof, evidence of any god.
It is as if the gods are extremely shy creatures, hiding but watching.

Then they have some moral code, of which they don't tell anyone about. They give no feedback what so ever with regards to whether people are adhering to the code or not.

Then the belief goes that if one believed in the god and coincidentally managed to follow the code during the many years of their lifetime then the god will reward them with heaven but if they got it wrong then they get surprised by being sent to hell.

The aspects of crazy in this are:
- The requirement for belief, and being judged on this, as if it is a bad thing to need evidence. If there is an afterlife and the god actually exists and you get to meet it, then belief goes out the window anyway, because you will have knowledge and will no longer require belief.
- The hiding of the rule book
- The lack of feedback
- The surprise judgement (this is the worst kind of manager/leader, one who surprises its workers without providing feedback and opportunity for improved behaviour. It is like setting a trap, legally it would be called entrapment and human judges don't like people being entrapped)
- The need for judgement (why is it important for the god to sort out good souls and bad souls). Is god scared or threatened by bad souls?

[theculturewarrior]

So a proper way to respond to the brain drain of proofs is it ignore them in favor of emotional reasoning?

 

I am saving this discussion for part 3.

[Fidei Defensor]

- The requirement for belief, and being judged on this, as if it is a bad thing to need evidence. If there is an afterlife and the god actually exists and you get to meet it, then belief goes out the window anyway, because you will have knowledge and will no longer require belief.

 

No one has the answer to this, which is precisely what faith is. You are rewarded for you faith by receiving absolute knowledge of His existence after death (in addition to eternal happiness)

 

- The hiding of the rule book

It's not hidden. What is expected of humanity has been clearly presented and reiterated throughout the ages. And even if one has never encountered it, natural law is written on the hearts of men and is part of our nature.

 

- The lack of feedback

Conventional feedback, yes. However, God isn't conventional.

 

- The surprise judgement (this is the worst kind of manager/leader, one who surprises its workers without providing feedback and opportunity for improved behaviour. It is like setting a trap, legally it would be called entrapment and human judges don't like people being entrapped)

It's not a surprise. We know there will be a judgement. We have our whole lives to correct our failings and to better perfect our ability to love and be loved.

 

- The need for judgement (why is it important for the god to sort out good souls and bad souls). Is god scared or threatened by bad souls?

God doesn't expect perfection, for only He is perfect. What he does want, however, is for us to fulfill the reason of our creation, which is to love (our love being the reflection God and his love.)  We are given many choices in life, and if we love as we ought, we are judged "good." "Bad souls," as you call them, are those who made the choice to fulfill only themselves. God isn't threatened by the "bad," but they aren't deserving of paradise because they chose to create a paradise for themselves in life, instead of hoping for the eternal paradise.

 

However, we don't actually know how it all works out in the end, and we won't until we reach it.

[theculturewarrior]

I'm presently reading "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis. I highly recommend it!

 

Glad to hear it!  It has been years since I finished a book.  The humanities destroyed my desire to read.  I think that since I threw the gauntlet down, I would like to start with the atheist response to CS Lewis, and I would definitely appreciate recommendations.

[stevil]

...they aren't deserving of paradise because they chose to create a paradise for themselves in life, instead of hoping for the eternal paradise.

 

So we aren't to take the initiative and make the most of what we have?

Is it our lot to sit back on our laurells and wait to be given stuff? Hoping, waiting? Like dependant children?

[stevil]

I think that since I threw the gauntlet down, I would like to start with the atheist response to CS Lewis, and I would definitely appreciate recommendations.

Richard Dawkins is the obvious choice.

I haven't read any of his books but I was at a book store and read the first few pages of "The magic of reality" seemed well written, well thought out.

[4588686]

No one has the answer to this, which is precisely what faith is. You are rewarded for you faith by receiving absolute knowledge of His existence after death (in addition to eternal happiness)

 

It's not hidden. What is expected of humanity has been clearly presented and reiterated throughout the ages. And even if one has never encountered it, natural law is written on the hearts of men and is part of our nature.

 

Conventional feedback, yes. However, God isn't conventional.

 

It's not a surprise. We know there will be a judgement. We have our whole lives to correct our failings and to better perfect our ability to love and be loved.

 

God doesn't expect perfection, for only He is perfect. What he does want, however, is for us to fulfill the reason of our creation, which is to love (our love being the reflection God and his love.)  We are given many choices in life, and if we love as we ought, we are judged "good." "Bad souls," as you call them, are those who made the choice to fulfill only themselves. God isn't threatened by the "bad," but they aren't deserving of paradise because they chose to create a paradise for themselves in life, instead of hoping for the eternal paradise.

 

However, we don't actually know how it all works out in the end, and we won't until we reach it.

 

You would have gone to hell had you died a month ago.  Would that have been warranted?  Were you only fulfilling yourself in the time that you lost your faith?     

[Kevin]

Yeah, I don't understand this aspect of religious belief.
There is no proof, evidence of any god.
It is as if the gods are extremely shy creatures, hiding but watching.

Then they have some moral code, of which they don't tell anyone about. They give no feedback what so ever with regards to whether people are adhering to the code or not.

Then the belief goes that if one believed in the god and coincidentally managed to follow the code during the many years of their lifetime then the god will reward them with heaven but if they got it wrong then they get surprised by being sent to hell.

The aspects of crazy in this are:
- The requirement for belief, and being judged on this, as if it is a bad thing to need evidence. If there is an afterlife and the god actually exists and you get to meet it, then belief goes out the window anyway, because you will have knowledge and will no longer require belief.
- The hiding of the rule book
- The lack of feedback
- The surprise judgement (this is the worst kind of manager/leader, one who surprises its workers without providing feedback and opportunity for improved behaviour. It is like setting a trap, legally it would be called entrapment and human judges don't like people being entrapped)
- The need for judgement (why is it important for the god to sort out good souls and bad souls). Is god scared or threatened by bad souls?

 

"Proof" is a funny word. I think there is at least one can proof a la Aristotle that there is a necessary existence, non contingent Existence, since the alternative is an infinite regress.

 

I think the gods of various religions, if any of them are true, put out the way they would like humans to act it various holy texts. No, there is no evidence these are true. To me, since I do feel there is an necessary existence which might be a Mind, I take the idea of what I would do if I were that mind (that is, if I were God) and I see which one matches up. I chose Christianity because I prefer its resolution to the problem of evil in Christ's suffering, since Christ is both God and Man, and since it doesn't dismiss the body, as in the resurrection.

 

A lot of your objections can be answered by appealing to invincible ignorance. If people didn't know about Christianity but they still tried to be good, I think they can be saved. From my view, Hell is for those who know about Christianity and what it is about, and reject it. That's why a judgment is needed, because those "bad" souls are just the souls that rejected God, and in order for their rejection and their will to be complete, they can't be forced to be with the God they don't want.

 

Of course, I may be wrong and there may just be nothing when we die. I hope not, but it may be so. Mostly, I am just working with what seems to make at least a little sense to me, and keeps me from losing hope about life in general.

[Kevin]

Richard Dawkins is the obvious choice.

I haven't read any of his books but I was at a book store and read the first few pages of "The magic of reality" seemed well written, well thought out.

 

No no no no, there are a thousand better choices than this. Dawkins is a polemicists and you don't have to get far into his books to see that everything he says is based on a priori assumptions. Nietzsche is the man you want for the deep dark poison. If you can swallow that and come up unscathed you could probably found a monastic order.

[theculturewarrior]

I stared into the abyss and I saw God staring back at me.  God bless you Kevin.  Please be merciful and do not respond.  I have a real problem.

[Fidei Defensor]

You would have gone to hell had you died a month ago.  Would that have been warranted?  Were you only fulfilling yourself in the time that you lost your faith?     

 

Yes, I was only fulfilling myself.

 

And the straightforward answer would be yes, I would have gone to hell. I willfully turned from the Church. HOWEVER, we don't know how God works. So maybe I wouldn't have.

[theculturewarrior]

"Proof" is a funny word. I think there is at least one can proof a la Aristotle that there is a necessary existence, non contingent Existence, since the alternative is an infinite regress.

 

I think the gods of various religions, if any of them are true, put out the way they would like humans to act it various holy texts. No, there is no evidence these are true. To me, since I do feel there is an necessary existence which might be a Mind, I take the idea of what I would do if I were that mind (that is, if I were God) and I see which one matches up. I chose Christianity because I prefer its resolution to the problem of evil in Christ's suffering, since Christ is both God and Man, and since it doesn't dismiss the body, as in the resurrection.

 

A lot of your objections can be answered by appealing to invincible ignorance. If people didn't know about Christianity but they still tried to be good, I think they can be saved. From my view, Hell is for those who know about Christianity and what it is about, and reject it. That's why a judgment is needed, because those "bad" souls are just the souls that rejected God, and in order for their rejection and their will to be complete, they can't be forced to be with the God they don't want.

 

Of course, I may be wrong and there may just be nothing when we die. I hope not, but it may be so. Mostly, I am just working with what seems to make at least a little sense to me, and keeps me from losing hope about life in general.

 

I am no longer needed here, thanks be to God!

Edited December 18, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[theculturewarrior]

Faith is spiritual, Kevin.  God speaks to the soul.  I am going to pray the rosary everyday, God willing, and I will think of you.  I will ask that God will speak to your soul and strengthen your faith.  When he does, you will make a lot of people think serious thoughts about God.  Thanks be to God.

[Kevin]

Faith is spiritual, Kevin.  God speaks to the soul.  I am going to pray the rosary everyday, God willing, and I will think of you.  I will ask that God will speak to your soul and strengthen your faith.  When he does, you will make a lot of people think serious thoughts about God.  Thanks be to God.

 

Well thanks man, I do feel a bit better. I was just in a funk. I am probably always going to have to deal with doubt and anxiety, but it usually isn't as bad as it was a little while ago. I know this is going to sound bad, but when I read about what happened in Connecticut, at first I thought, this is the kicker, Ivan Karamazov was right, I need to give the ticket back. But then I started crying, and then I thought, why am I crying? And it was because it was so pathetic and miserable and unjust that this had happened - it was sad, in other words - and that was why I was crying. But if life meant nothing, there was no reason to cry about this, or anything. But somehow, I didn't want to stop crying. I really didn't even know who I was crying for either, myself or the kids or all mankind. And then, I think I went to McDonalds and then took a nap, and even though I still felt bad, I wasn't worried. So that was something. And here I am today.

 

Oh, and yeah, I would like to do that. I think I've said, I'm like a poet. I'm in an MFA program I guess, so I'm at least sort of a poet. But I've never been able to write any about God. One day though.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Kevin

[stevil]

"Proof" is a funny word. I think there is at least one can proof a la Aristotle that there is a necessary existence, non contingent Existence, since the alternative is an infinite regress.

Having a magical god that has always existed seems to be a very lazy unscientific way of explaining stuff, it doesn't really get rid of the problem of infinite regress. One can always ask but where did god come from, what is god made of, how can god have knowledge when there is no existence. To simply assert that he has always been, that he has always known is imaginative and lazy.
Infinite regress might simply be the quantum vacuum, an unintelligent state of "nothing", we just don't know all the answers yet, but it is really interesting to see what the scientists discover.

 
I chose Christianity because I prefer its resolution to the problem of evil in Christ's suffering, since Christ is both God and Man, and since it doesn't dismiss the body, as in the resurrection.

You like the story, so you choose to believe, akin to wishful thinking.

 
From my view, Hell is for those who know about Christianity and what it is about, and reject it. That's why a judgment is needed, because those "bad" souls are just the souls that rejected God, and in order for their rejection and their will to be complete, they can't be forced to be with the God they don't want.

I reject a god that hides, I reject a god that requires faith, I reject a god that requires obedience, I reject a god that sends people to be tortured for eternity, I reject a god that requires worship, I reject a god that inspires people to burn witches, I reject a god that inspires people to oppress gay people, I reject a god that inspires people that woman are just a support for men. I happily reject the Christian god. Am I a "bad" soul? No I am not!

[theculturewarrior]

Well thanks man, I do feel a bit better. I was just in a funk. I am probably always going to have to deal with doubt and anxiety, but it usually isn't as bad as it was a little while ago. I know this is going to sound bad, but when I read about what happened in Connecticut, at first I thought, this is the kicker, Ivan Karamazov was right, I need to give the ticket back. But then I started crying, and then I thought, why am I crying? And it was because it was so pathetic and miserable and unjust that this had happened - it was sad, in other words - and that was why I was crying. But if life meant nothing, there was no reason to cry about this, or anything. But somehow, I didn't want to stop crying. I really didn't even know who I was crying for either, myself or the kids or all mankind. And then, I think I went to McDonalds and then took a nap, and even though I still felt bad, I wasn't worried. So that was something. And here I am today.

 

Oh, and yeah, I would like to do that. I think I've said, I'm like a poet. I'm in an MFA program I guess, so I'm at least sort of a poet. But I've never been able to write any about God. One day though.

 

Poetry is the foundation of civilization.  The Bible would be nothing without it.  My favorite period of poetry is the Anglo-Saxon period, which (for the uninitiated) has a very sacred undercurrent.  I think the trick for you to write sacred poetry is to pray sacred poetry.   It will get into your soul and you will start to speak it like a native language.  I highly recommend the Liturgy of the Hours.

 

And when you are established, please write a fantasy novel.  It will help the cause.

[Kevin]

Ah, I realized the things I said in this post were meaningless, so I deleted them. So, just thought I'd say that.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Kevin

[4588686]

Yes, I was only fulfilling myself.

 

How so?

 

 

And the straightforward answer would be yes, I would have gone to hell. I willfully turned from the Church. HOWEVER, we don't know how God works. So maybe I wouldn't have.

 

Why?  What about you has substantively changed that merited eternal torture five seconds prior to stepping into the confessional.  Grace?  That's weak.  You're no better or worse a person than before a Priest started waving his hands around in front of you and declaring you absolved but now suddenly you merit heaven where before you merited damnation?  That's a really petty system of ethics for God to have.

[Kevin]

Poetry is the foundation of civilization.  The Bible would be nothing without it.  My favorite period of poetry is the Anglo-Saxon period, which (for the uninitiated) has a very sacred undercurrent.  I think the trick for you to write sacred poetry is to pray sacred poetry.   It will get into your soul and you will start to speak it like a native language.  I highly recommend the Liturgy of the Hours.

 

And when you are established, please write a fantasy novel.  It will help the cause.

 

 

 

I actually already have a fantasy novel in my head (the story). I just am not very good at sustained writing, because I need to make every paragraph perfect. This is why I am a poet.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Kevin

[Fidei Defensor]

How so?

 

 

 

Why?  What about you has substantively changed that merited eternal torture five seconds prior to stepping into the confessional.  Grace?  That's weak.  You're no better or worse a person than before a Priest started waving his hands around in front of you and declaring you absolved but now suddenly you merit heaven where before you merited damnation?  That's a really petty system of ethics for God to have.

 

I was only fulfilling myself via my very selfish tendencies. Its personal stuff.

 

In regards to the forgiveness — the difference between the before and after was the choices I made. I made the choice to return to the Church and God, to make the act of penance as a way to remove the sins of my past selfish choices.  I haven't merited anything, rather, I made a choice to go back to God.  That was the act that brought me closer to deserving a chance at heaven — my willful assent to the faith.

 

Yes, God looks at the sins I've committed willingly in the past and forgives them (assuming my intent to not commit them again.) However, only God can truly judge the soul, so who knows what is possible. We do know that confession is a guaranteed forgiveness (again, assuming we repent.) But for all we know, its not the only way to be forgiven. Thats between God and his creatures.

That being said, I have always personally believed that God wouldn't likely condemn a person to hell who reached the conclusion of agnosticism or atheism by use of their logic and reason (rather than out of malice or anger) and have lived a good life.