Homosexual Outreach At Notre Dame

[Not The Philosopher]

From NCR:

 

After years of petitions, Notre Dame, the premier Catholic university in the United States, has announced it will create an official campus support group for homosexual students and their friends.

 

But Notre Dame has a more radical idea than the petitioners imagined: It plans to create a permanent student organization grounded fully in Catholic social and moral teaching.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/notre-dames-plan-for-a-faithful-homosexual-outreach/#ixzz2FdrnfAhw

 

Given what I've heard of ND as of late, I'm worried that something like this could get out of hand. Nevertheless, I hope it does wind up helping students to bear this particular cross and grow in chastity.

 

Thoughts?

[Mr Cameron]

If, like the artice says, the programme is grounded fully in Catholic social and moral teaching, then perhaps it'll be something similar to Courage? Though I've my doubts.

[Gabriela]

Hmm. Don't know. Let's see what happens. We all know ND is on a questionable path, but that doesn't mean she could never turn from it...

Edited December 21, 2012 by curiousing

[Basilisa Marie]

This is great.  

[Anastasia13]

Hopefully this will encourage them to pursue Godly lifestyles despite their temptations.

[BarbTherese]

I think it becomes a case of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".  Should we refuse to assist another because of what we regard as their moral position ("judge not that you may not be judged").  Not at all - our love and mercy, acts of mercy, should not discriminate, as The Lord does not discriminate with His Love and His Mercy.  We see incidents of this in the Life of Jesus.

 

Doubltess those who do not want to see Notre Dame go ahead with their program will have rationalizations why they should not go ahead with it.  Just as those who would like to see it go ahead, probably will also have rationalizations why Notre Dame should.  I think that The Gospel makes things quite simple and quite clear.  We are not to judge another's subjective personal moral position, we can only speak objectively to moral matters or subjects.  Hence homosexual acts are against the moral law.  Also, we are all sinners and who amongst us can claim not to be and why is my sin not as serious as yours - why can my sin be 'forgiven' and another's not. Why can I 'stand proud' and another not.   How can we know the disposition of another's will, their hearts.  The Catechism clearly tells us

 

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Apotheoun]

I think it is foolish to establish or recognize student clubs that are founded upon disordered desires and inclinations.  In fact anything that ultimately makes a moral disorder a defining characteristic of the human person is contrary to the common good and to the Catholic identity of Notre Dame (although it is questionable just how Catholic the university is anyway).

[theculturewarrior]

I think it is foolish to establish or recognize student clubs that are founded upon disordered desires and inclinations.  In fact anything that ultimately makes a moral disorder a defining characteristic of the human person is contrary to the common good and to the Catholic identity of Notre Dame (although it is questionable just how Catholic the university is anyway).

 

Who makes it a defining characteristic, us or them?

[Apotheoun]

Who makes it a defining characteristic, us or them?

 

Sadly, those who suffer from this disordered condition tend to make it a defining characteristic of their lives.  They tend to also see it as a "culture" or "lifestyle," that is, as a way of existing.  Grace alone can overcome this disordered condition and that should always be the Catholic focus.

[theculturewarrior]

Sadly, those who suffer from this disordered condition tend to make it a defining characteristic of their lives.  They tend to also see it as a "culture" or "lifestyle," that is, as a way of existing.  Grace alone can overcome this disordered condition and that should always be the Catholic focus.

 

I may be misunderstanding you, but you would seem to have them suffer alone in silence.  I would disagree with that, knowing personally how important it is to have someone in your life who understands you.

[Apotheoun]

I may be misunderstanding you, but you would seem to have them suffer alone in silence.  I would disagree with that, knowing personally how important it is to have someone in your life who understands you.

 

Certainly not.  But I do not think it is wise to establish clubs that focus on the disordered condition or that groups large numbers of people suffering from this condition together.  What they really need is a spiritual confessor, that is, they need a spiritual father who can help to guide them in the life of virtue and prayer.  Establishing a group that identifies itself by the politically correct nomenclature of "Gay, Lesbian, Transgendered, Bisexual, and Questioning" is hardly helpful.

[theculturewarrior]

Certainly not.  But I do not think it is wise to establish clubs that focus on the disordered condition or that groups large numbers of people suffering from this condition together.  What they really need is a spiritual confessor, that is, they need a spiritual father who can help to guide them in the life of virtue and prayer.  Establishing a group that identifies itself by the politically correct nomenclature of "Gay, Lesbian, Transgendered, Bisexual, and Questioning" is hardly helpful.

 

I think it depends on what they are looking for.  It is often difficult to get the attention of a priest in today's hectic world.  If they are coming together as a group looking for grace, to support each other in their search for God and human compassion, and to pray for each other, then why not?  If it often difficult for people who suffer the stigma of such things to find a place in the pews.  Maybe the only home that they have in the Church is with each other, having been soundly rejected elsewhere.

[Apotheoun]

I think it depends on what they are looking for.  It is often difficult to get the attention of a priest in today's hectic world.  If they are coming together as a group looking for grace, to support each other in their search for God and human compassion, and to pray for each other, then why not?  If it often difficult for people who suffer the stigma of such things to find a place in the pews.  Maybe the only home that they have in the Church is with each other, having been soundly rejected elsewhere.

 

When I was a young man struggling with masturbation it would not have been a helpful thing to have a club focused upon masturbation at the school I attended.  If you are going to have clubs based on disordered inclinations then why not go all out and have a Pedophilia Club or a Kleptomania Club.  

 

Quite honestly, it would be better for Notre Dame to encourage recourse to the sacrament of penance and spiritual direction; instead of establishing a club that will allow people who are suffering from specific forms of sexual deviancy to identify with their disordered condition.  The Catholic Church needs to be counter-cultural on these moral and sexual issues, but alas it does seem as if the Catholic Church has by and large surrendered to the secular culture.  

Edited December 21, 2012 by Apotheoun

[theculturewarrior]

When I was a young man struggling with masturbation it would not have been a helpful thing to have a club focused upon masturbation at the school I attended.  If you are going to have clubs based on disordered inclinations then why not go all out and have a Pedophilia Club or a Kleptomania Club.  

 

Quite honestly, it would be better for Notre Dame to encourage recourse to the sacrament of penance and spiritual direction; instead of establishing a club that will allow people who are suffering from specific forms of sexual deviancy to identify with their disordered condition.  The Catholic Church needs to be counter-cultural on these moral and sexual issues, but alas it does seem as if the Catholic Church has by and large surrendered to the secular culture.  

 

I may be misunderstanding you again, but I think that the problem here is that you do not distinguish pedophilia from homosexuality. as it pertains to the question at hand.  As a disabled American I have seen a lot of this kind of thing in life.  Society assigns stigma, often without questioning.  This is indeed a scandal that Christians need to avoid.  I agree with the initial poster who said, judge not lest ye be judged.

Edited December 21, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[Apotheoun]

A Catholic school does not need a club that helps a student to identify with a disordered sexual desire.  The fact that Notre Dame has given in to the prevailing culture is just another sign that it is not a real Catholic school.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Apotheoun

[theculturewarrior]

When I was a young man struggling with masturbation, I thought that I was the only one.  If we had a club that removed the stigma, I might have been encouraged and supported in that rather than ashamed and isolated.  Maybe LGTB Catholics would not join the club to identify with the desire so much as the stigma that society gives to them whether they embrace the Gospel or not.  And furthermore, I will try to put this as politely as possible.  I have reached midlife.  I still struggle to a greater or lesser extent the way that the majority of most men do, whether they are married (as I am) or not.  The stigma that Catholics give to this does not change human behavior at all.  I am part of a secular society that would have believe that as a disabled American that I am morally defective.  If found that attitude in the Church, I might be tempted to abandon it altogether.  This why it is important that the disenfranchised not be made to feel isolated by stigma.

Edited December 21, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[Apotheoun]

I may be misunderstanding you again, but I think that the problem here is that you do not distinguish pedophilia from homosexuality. as it pertains to the question at hand.  As a disabled American I have seen a lot of this kind of thing in life.  Society assigns stigma, often without questioning.  This is indeed a scandal that Christians need to avoid.  I agree with the initial poster who said, judge not lest ye be judged.

 

I would never equate a benign disability, and - by the way - I am a physically disabled person, with a disordered condition that involves a tendency toward an act that is intrinsically evil (i.e., homosexual sex).  There is no need for a "Gay, Lesbian, Transgendered, Bisexual, and Questioning" club at a Catholic school, and in fact the whole idea of the existence of such a club distorts the image of the school in question, which should not be condoning disordered inclinations or disordered actions at any level. 

[theculturewarrior]

I would never equate a benign disability, and - by the way - I am a physically disabled person, with a disordered condition that involves a tendency toward an act that is intrinsically evil (i.e., homosexual sex).  There is no need for a "Gay, Lesbian, Transgendered, Bisexual, and Questioning" club at a Catholic school, and in fact the whole idea of the existence of such a club distorts the image of the school in question, which should not be condoning disordered inclinations or disordered actions at any level. 

 

I have a benign disability, and I like you.  You win, hands down.

[theculturewarrior]

I would never equate a benign disability, and - by the way - I am a physically disabled person, with a disordered condition that involves a tendency toward an act that is intrinsically evil (i.e., homosexual sex).  There is no need for a "Gay, Lesbian, Transgendered, Bisexual, and Questioning" club at a Catholic school, and in fact the whole idea of the existence of such a club distorts the image of the school in question, which should not be condoning disordered inclinations or disordered actions at any level. 

 

Do you ever feel though, that the Church has rejected you?  Have you ever felt that way because of your disability, etc.?  Do you not feel alone in this, or have you ever felt that way in your walk with God?

Edited December 21, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[Basilisa Marie]

So what are we supposed to do, write off anyone who admits to having non-heterosexual inclinations?  No.  I don't understand why we have this double-standard when it comes to sexual sin.   If I use my heterosexual inclinations for immoral purposes, but have a change of heart, people aren't quick to write me off as a member of the evil culture. They would accept me with open arms.   Why are we so quick to judge a group that so explicitly says that it's founded on Church teaching, just because it offers support to LGBTQ students? 

 

TCW's right.  LGBTQ people have often found nothing but rejection from Catholics, even when they try to live a holy life.  It's like they have to prove to us how Catholic they are, and THEN we might consider giving them the time of day (but woe unto them if they fall just once!).  We treat no other sinner like this.  We have prison ministries to evangelize felons.  We have support groups for women who sought an abortion.  Why must we make LGBTQ people prove how holy they are before we'll accept them as part of the fold? 

 

I do think we should give careful oversight to any group like this, because it's a delicate issue and it'd be quite easy for such a group to fall away from the Church.  But why do people feel the need to condemn it outright? Why do we have to assume that it will fail?  I know Notre Dame has a checkered recent past. But if we implicitly claim to be better Catholics than they are, I'd hope people would be a little more charitable.