Questions About Private Vows.

[Chiquitunga]

Sponsa Christi is also a member of Phatmass and a Consecrated Virgin.  According to her website, private vows are made immediately prior to or after a Mass (with agreement of celebrant) but not during Mass : http://sponsa-christi.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/how-do-i-make-private-vow.html

 

Really quick, I wanted to say after reading her post, in case you didn't get the time to, that she means they would be before or after Holy Mass if someone wanted to do them in the context of a Mass, but not during. But you can also do them in a much more private manner as I did, just in a rectory room with the priest to witness and a friend. Very short and simple formula/prayer I used..

 

Also, in case your SD is not in the area, you could simply do it in private like during/after your thanksgiving (without him to witness or anyone else) but with his approval I would think :like:

[BarbTherese]

:like2:

Yes, private vows can be made in a variety of ways, including in the complete secrecy of one's heart.  I had not been aware, however, that private vows should not be made during Mass, rather before or after - until I read the blog in question.

It is always prudent and wise, I think, to seek spiritual advice prior to making any private vow or vows, after all it is a vow/promise to The Lord and not something to be done lightly.  However while spiritual direction is most wise and prudent, advisable, it is not absolutely necessary to seek spiritual direction for a private vow or vows to be valid.

 

 

http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu238.htm

A. 2. Many, with all good intent, when they are young and zealous, they make a vow to God with the intention of keeping it for life. Not having consulted a spiritual director prior to making such a vow, they do not realize that a vow for life is a long time. Also, those who make private vows often walk a lonely spiritual life without the support that religious vocations find in Dioceses or religious Orders.

Such vows or promises may consist of a vow to remain celibate for life, a promise to be a missionary for life, a promise to pray the Rosary on a daily basis throughout one's life, a promise to never commit a certain sin, etc...

Knowing that many individual do make private vows and that some may want to be dispensed from such a vow during their lives, the Church covers this matter in the Canon Laws

 

[Sister_Laurel]

Any time someone makes a vow about anything, they should necessarily discern what it means and the consequences should they make that vow.

 

Perhaps I was assuming that those who are getting ready to make private vows will have already researched what this means and discussed it with a spiritual director.

 

Since we can't control what another person does, we can only pray that those who do choose to make vows to God, do so after much prayer, reflection, discernment, research, common sense and advice.

 

There will always be people who do not meet what we consider to be our own 'high standards' of care perhaps, but God can sort this out. The way I look at it, it isn't our place to judge another person who has decided to make private vows of some kind to God. He judges by the heart, which we can't possibly do. If someone's actions somehow intrude upon us, then we might be called to make some kind of judgment about what we should do with regard to this, but barring that eventuality, I prefer to leave each individual to their own conscience and relationship with God. The Church herself says

Can. 1192 §1 A vow is public if it is accepted in the name of the Church by a lawful Superior; otherwise, it is private.

 

No theology degree is required for one to make a vow to God - simply a sincere desire to make a commitment in their heart. When we start putting restrictions even on private vows then we really do wander into pharisee country.

 

Nothing to do with private vows - but probably the simplest and most sincere person I have ever met was Mother Teresa's auntie, a lay person. We were eating a meal together in the kitchen of the rehab centre where we were working and I asked her to say grace. She bent her head and quietly said, 'Thanks God.'

 

The reason I bring this up is because a very simple lay person with no understanding of theology at all, and no spiritual director, might decide in their heart to make some kind of private vow to God. Personally, I think God would be more impressed by that person's vow, than by someone who knew all the theology of vows and promises and commitments and evangelical counsels together but still didn't have simplicity of heart and quiet trust in Him.

 

From my perspective I have run into too many people who actually fail to understand that their baptismal consecration obliges them to live the evangelical counsels in their own state of life. They are already obliged to poverty, chastity and obedience and we do NOT make vows for things we are already obligated to. When religious make vows they embrace religious obedience, religious poverty, and consecrated celibacy or religious chastity. If one finds their baptismal promises inadequately demanding, then perhaps it is time to take a look at them and consider why that is so. One can specify how these call one at this particular time without making added vows.

 

Ordinarily it makes no sense to vow obedience which is akin to religious obedience unless one will have a legitimate superior and a Rule to which one is obligated to conform one's life and will. (Obedience as listening already binds each Christian.) That is why some canonists and I agree that a vow of obedience is usually meaningless apart from either community or solitary vowed life.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

DIocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[Nunsense]

From my perspective I have run into too many people who actually fail to understand that their baptismal consecration obliges them to live the evangelical counsels in their own state of life. They are already obliged to poverty, chastity and obedience and we do NOT make vows for things we are already obligated to. When religious make vows they embrace religious obedience, religious poverty, and consecrated celibacy or religious chastity. If one finds their baptismal promises inadequately demanding, then perhaps it is time to take a look at them and consider why that is so. One can specify how these call one at this particular time without making added vows.

 

Ordinarily it makes no sense to vow obedience which is akin to religious obedience unless one will have a legitimate superior and a Rule to which one is obligated to conform one's life and will. (Obedience as listening already binds each Christian.) That is why some canonists and I agree that a vow of obedience is usually meaningless apart from either community or solitary vowed life.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

DIocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

 

While I usually agree with most things you post Sr Laurel, perhaps I am a little more flexible here than you are. I don't object to anyone making the vows that they consider necessary to God as private vows. I still believe this is between their conscience and God, and not something that anyone else should evaluate or judge. I do recommend that anyone planning to make a vow to God, because of the serious nature of such a promise or commitment, discuss this with their spiritual director or Confessor and obtain advice about exactly what they are promising in their vows and what this means to them. Just because the vow of obedience is usually meant as being under obedience to a superior and a Rule, there may be other interpretations or variations on a vow of obedience that are unique to an individual after they have discerned it carefully.

 

Canon law allows for private vows but does not limit them according to state in life. To me, private means just that, private.

 

But I can see that this might be interpreted many different ways, even by canonists and religious and priests. I made my private vows to God, as  sanctioned by canon law and under the guidance of a spiritual director and since they have meaning for me, I don't really care what some canonists or others think about them. :)   No offence however.

[BarbTherese]

From my perspective I have run into too many people who actually fail to understand that their baptismal consecration obliges them to live the evangelical counsels in their own state of life. They are already obliged to poverty, chastity and obedience and we do NOT make vows for things we are already obligated to. When religious make vows they embrace religious obedience, religious poverty, and consecrated celibacy or religious chastity.

 

It is true that the evangelical counsels (as per my quote from the CCC) obliges all the baptised and for those outside religious life etc. – ACCORDING TO their state in life and vocation as Charity may ask. Those in the lay state are not necessarily called to a stable form of the evangelical counsel – all as I have quoted from the CCC.  Those in the lay state are not living in a stable form of canonically vowed RADICAL poverty, chastity and obedience and on a continual basis at all times in all circumstances.  While Jesus has addressed the evangelical counsels to every disciple or all baptised not all are called to live in a stable state of the evangelical counsels and radically so.  And I have quoted from the CCC in this regard.

The privately vowed person to the evangelical counsels chooses to live in a stable form of these counsels not in imitation of religious life necessarily (some may feel a call to do so) rather in imitation of Jesus Himself – as the CCC states - as I have already quoted.

To demand that vowing the evangelical counsels privately is questionable, is to deny persons to vow to live as Jesus lived in poverty, chastity and obedience a life in the spirit of The Beatitudes – and in a consistent state in life.  While my obedience may not be as radical as in some expressions of religious life, my poverty is certainly more radical than in many forms of religious life.  "Radical" is a very big word. 

 If one finds their baptismal promises inadequately demanding, then perhaps it is time to take a look at them and consider why that is so. One can specify how these call one at this particular time without making added vows.

 

This is very true and quite skillfully, if unkindly, worded.  It is not necessarily finding baptismal promises inadequate - rather to build on them and in imitation of Jesus and His Person and His Life - and for the sake of The Kingdom.  However to deny or challenge that there is a vocation such as private vows to the evangelical counsels in the lay state is to be opposed to what The Church tells us. It is also opposing those who are aware of a call to make private vows and denying their consciousness as valid. This is challenging Canon Law and you are quite free to do so, while any person vowed (privately or canonically) to obedience is not - without compromising obedience per se.

  All vocations no matter which build or have a foundation in Baptism.  Those in private vows to the evangelical counsels renounce as it were for one the married state in life and in order to live more radically the call to Chastity and for the sake of The Kingdom. They also vow to live the counsel of Poverty in some radical form along with the vow of obedience.  As the CCC tells us, the evangelical counsels remove what might be opposed to GROWTH in Charity, while not necessarily opposed to Charity. 

 

Radical is a very big word – even in religious life forms of this radical state vary and in degree.

 

I would point out also that there may be some who have clear impediments to any form of canonical vow and as The Church permits have decided to embrace the vows in imitation of Jesus (and religious life) anyway and in the lay state with a desire to give their whole life to Jesus and for the sake of The Kingdom.  If  their choice is to imitate the vows of religious life in some way (and in the person and life of Jesus) why all the fuss and bother?

 

Ordinarily it makes no sense to vow obedience which is akin to religious obedience unless one will have a legitimate superior and a Rule to which one is obligated to conform one's life and will. (Obedience as listening already binds each Christian.) That is why some canonists and I agree that a vow of obedience is usually meaningless apart from either community or solitary vowed life.

 

What Jesus has called us to in obedience as a counsel for all the baptised is obedience to The Will of God - in whatever form it is expressed and for Catholics, canonically vowed or not,and  this is expressed in and through The Church.  With the canonically vowed, The Church authorizes some authority to be a direct expression of The Will of God for those vowed.  A privately vowed person is free to choose some authority  in The Church to which to vow obedience.  This is not “meaningless” since obedience as a counsel will assist in the growth of Charity as the CCC states.  This is one of the things that disturbed me in some posts into some threads – that Charity seemed not to be present at all. 

 

The privately vowed person is also quite free to write a ‘rule of life’ for themselves since The Church has not stated to the contrary.  In fact in Vita Consecrata JPII has put the dedicated life as a form of consecrated living (“special consecration”) and under the sub-heading of “Thanksgiving for The Consecrated Life”.

 

To state anything else is simply to be contrary to what The Church tells us.  We are quite free to have our own concepts; however, there is a limit, a very clear boundary, on those concepts as a Catholic and under the counsel of obedience.  One’s concepts are either in line with The Church or they are not, either within the boundary of any vow of obedience, or outside it.

 

If you consider the lay state under private vows questionable, then you are free to do so.  I choose to hear and apply what The Church states and as coming under my private vow of obedience.  Also, I consulted two theologians on the matter (for two Church authorities only) prior to making life vows.  Of course, you are quite free to disagree with their affirmation of life private vows as a quite valid potential.  This is simply a theological disagreement between those who have some education in the science – and nothing new, nothing new whatsoever. 

[BarbTherese]

A person is completely free in Church law and understanding to make a private vow of virginity - and completely free to make a private vow to live eremitically in a stricter life of separation from the world and a life of asiduous prayer and penance, and to determine for themselves how these things are to be lived out.  Just as a person is free to make private vows to the evangelical counsels and how they are to be lived out.

 

Again one is most wise and prudent to seek spiritual direction prior to any private vow or vows -  and on an ongoing basis.  During this spiritual direction motivation will be discerned and discussed - ideally that is - as well as that the person understands what they are doing in making a private vow or vows including how they are to be lived out.  It will also be discerned, ideally, whether a person might have a potential call to the consecrated state or not.  Rather recently Pope Benedict did advocate spiritual direction including for all those in the laity who are striving to lead comitted spiritual lives.

 

It doesn't particularly worry me either on a personal basis what the theologically educated in some way may say either.  I always choose to obey what The Church states - always - and ignore theological disagreements of any kind by any person that are not in line with The Church.   Not all however understand what The Church teaches and does not teach and with the proliferation of the internet and the ability to spread both sound and unsound information without limitation, it is quite concerning.

 

 

 

[BarbTherese]

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com.au/search/label/public%20vs%20private%20vows

The above links to Sr Laurel O'Neal's blog.  For some reason I as unable to highlight and copy and paste - but then the whole entry on the above link is worth the read for the interested and is related to private vows in the lay state to the evangelical counsels - and does not speak directly against them.  It is quite possible that Sr Laurel's personal insight and understanding might have moved on (to some degree anyway) from the above entry in March 2012.

It would be impossible to live as I do (for the sake of The Kingdom) outside of a radical form of poverty and chastity.  Obedience came into play not long ago when my director advised me that I not move in a certain direction.  There is no need to make private vows to the evangelical counsels to live in such a way - private vows are a radical form of living as one's commitment - and for me, the commitment is for life by private vow and come what may.  It is a commitment to my baptism in a quite radical manner- and not necessarily asked by baptism in the lay state.  It was in response to a very clear invitation and call to live in a certain quite radical manner in the lay state - and I thoroughly researched what I was doing by seeking advice.  In I hope prudence and wisdom, I did delay any sort of perpetual life vows for quite a few years and made the vows for 12 monthly periods renewable each year.

Any seeking of dispensation for me personally would be a quite serious move for me on a personal level, other than if a greater good was involved, and for a few reasons.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

Again, I'm very thankful for all the information; it has been helpful!  :)

 

I had another question concerning obtaining permission from a spiritual director. I do have a priest that has been very helpful to me in certain situations and he's the one to whom I ask questions and to talk about my spiritual life. He isn't in my area, actually very far away. I don't know if he knows me well enough to be able to give me the permission for this so I don't know if he would be able to or not.

 

I know my intention is pure and I know where my heart stands; that this vow is most likely already in my heart. I would though like to do this while remaining in the world and Lord willing that I would be able to enter a religious community at some point. However, I wouldn't want to do this if I knew it would be displeasing to Our Lord because I don't have the proper permission before making this vow (receiving the permission from a priest.) Would it be more prudent then not to do this if I weren't to get permission because the priest doesn't know me well enough? 

[BarbTherese]

Again, I'm very thankful for all the information; it has been helpful!  :)

 

I had another question concerning obtaining permission from a spiritual director. I do have a priest that has been very helpful to me in certain situations and he's the one to whom I ask questions and to talk about my spiritual life. He isn't in my area, actually very far away. I don't know if he knows me well enough to be able to give me the permission for this so I don't know if he would be able to or not.

 

I know my intention is pure and I know where my heart stands; that this vow is most likely already in my heart. I would though like to do this while remaining in the world and Lord willing that I would be able to enter a religious community at some point. However, I wouldn't want to do this if I knew it would be displeasing to Our Lord because I don't have the proper permission before making this vow (receiving the permission from a priest.) Would it be more prudent then not to do this if I weren't to get permission because the priest doesn't know me well enough? 

 

As I see things, it is entirely up to you.  To my mind it is unwise and imprudent to make any sort of private vow or vows without first seeking spiritual direction.  The Church does not place any restrictions on private vows providing one is over 14 years I think it might be.  I am unsure of any age restrictions so dont take me as 'gospel'.  It does remain a very serious move to make a vow to God even privately, be assured of this.

 

You do realize of course that if you hope to enter religious life at some point, there is no need for any sort of actual private vow in the interim.  There is no need to make a private vow to God in order to live a certain way.  To live a holy life does not ask any sort of vow.

 

The Lord is never displeased with what we do with the very best motives and intentions and especially when what we do is a good in itself with the intention of performing some good.  This is not to state that for our human part, it may be an unwise and imprudent move.  Were it me in your instance, I would be talking with Father anyway - it is entirely up to him and whether he feels he may know you well enough to give you advice on the matter. From there you can make up your own mind and decide.  While, again, we are probably very wise and prudent to follow what a priest may state as some sort of advice, there is no actual obligation in obedience to obey everything a priest may advise or state (unless of course one has made a private vow of obedience to him, AND he has accepted such a private vow and the terms of the vow).

 

Is there any way you can seek out regular spiritual direction.  This is only a discussion forum and not at all in any way very often a place of any sort of personal spiritual advice, which does ask a spiritual director again if one is wise and prudent.

 

Personally, I do value obedience immensely (along with my other private vows).  We read of Jesus in the Gospel that "He learnt obedience" and also "Not My Will, Father, but Thine be done" and other references in the Gospel to obedience - and powerful references.  Primarily, we owe obedience to The Church as Catholics and through whom The Will of God is expressed for us.

Edited January 3, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Sr Laurel : "Ordinarily it makes no sense to vow obedience which is akin to religious obedience unless one will have a legitimate superior and a Rule to which one is obligated to conform one's life and will. (Obedience as listening already binds each Christian.) That is why some canonists and I agree that a vow of obedience is usually meaningless apart from either community or solitary vowed life: "

 

 

 

This may be well a common agreement by "some canonists" that a private vow of obedience is meaningless outside of community or solitary vowed life and they are most certainly entitled to an opinion on the matter -  such opinion is not necessarily at all an agreement by all canonists I suspect nor a binding opinion on anyone whatsoever.  Nor is there any sort of official statement by The Church on the matter which precludes a lay person from making a private vow of obedience as well as determing what that obedience embraces.  I would be personally guided by The Church until such time (if it occurs) as The Church decides against a private vow of obedience for a lay person or decides any other matter relating to private vows and in this case to the evangelical counsels. Privately vowed obedience as that listening which binds every Christian is not of necessity whatsoever the content of every private vow of obedience - just as I suspect the opinion you have expressed is likely not the opinion of all canonists or all other educated people in Church matters.  Primarily to me however, it is not an instruction from The Church re a private vow of obedience.

 

Nor does it of necessity mean that a lay person making private vows to the evangelical counsels misunderstands their baptism.  The CCC clearly states that while Jesus recommends the evangelical counsels to all disciples, this is not necessarily in a consistent form of life in the lay state.  The lay person making private vows in the lay state to the ECs makes a commitment to a consistent form of life under the ECs as determined by the person making the private vows and therefore it goes beyond the askings of our Baptism.

 

Catholic Catechism:

1974 The evangelical counsels manifest the living fullness of charity, which is never satisfied with not giving more. They attest its vitality and call forth our spiritual readiness. The perfection of the New Law consists essentially in the precepts of love of God and neighbor. The counsels point out the more direct ways, the readier means, and are to be practiced in keeping with the vocation of each
 

• [God] does not want each person to keep all the counsels, but only those appropriate to the diversity of persons, times, opportunities, and strengths, as charity requires; for it is charity, as queen of all virtues, all commandments, all counsels, and, in short, of all laws and all Christian actions that gives to all of them their rank, order, time, and value.

 

Even in religious life per se and perhaps even in the eremitical life under Canon 603, the radical nature of each of the vows to the ECs may vary greatly insofar as each religious order states how the particular vow is to be lived out within their various communites.  These statutes (or whatever is the correct term) do receive some form of Church approval, although I am unsure by whom exactly and this may vary too depending on whether a religious community is of diocesan approval only or whether it has Papal approval.  Nowhere does The Church state that a rule of life must receive either diocesan or Papal approval in the case of individuals writing a rule of life for themselves alone and to which they obligate their life and their will by private vow to God.  Such a private vow between the person and God may even be made in complete secrecy.  Nothing in Church law to preclude it.  However, to my mind it would be wise and prudent to seek spiritual direction per se before making any private vow at all.  Is it necessary in Church law - no it is not necessary but might indicate immaturity in the spiriutal life and possibly a lacking in prudence and wisdom not to seek spiritual advice.  Of course, private vows to God are not necessarily related to the ECs alone -  and while we have made a vow to God, the breaking of that vow might involve different levels of seriousness and grave or non grave matter -- and best submitted to a priest in Confession along with the fact that a private vow to God had been made.

Edited January 3, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Lumen Gentuium - Dogmatic Constitution on The Church

(215) However, this holiness of the Church is unceasingly manifested, and must be manifested, in the fruits of grace which the Spirit produces in the faithful; it is expressed in many ways in individuals, who in their walk of life, tend toward the perfection of charity, thus causing the edification of others; in a very special way this (holiness) appears in the practice of the counsels, customarily called "evangelical." This practice of the counsels, under the impulsion of the Holy Spirit, undertaken by many Christians, either privately or in a Church-approved condition or state of life, gives and must give in the world an outstanding witness and example of this same holiness.

[Indwelling Trinity]

From my perspective I have run into too many people who actually fail to understand that their baptismal consecration obliges them to live the evangelical counsels in their own state of life. They are already obliged to poverty, chastity and obedience and we do NOT make vows for things we are already obligated to. When religious make vows they embrace religious obedience, religious poverty, and consecrated celibacy or religious chastity.

 

It is true that the evangelical counsels (as per my quote from the CCC) obliges all the baptised and for those outside religious life etc. – ACCORDING TO their state in life and vocation as Charity may ask. Those in the lay state are not necessarily called to a stable form of the evangelical counsel – all as I have quoted from the CCC.  Those in the lay state are not living in a stable form of canonically vowed RADICAL poverty, chastity and obedience and on a continual basis at all times in all circumstances.  While Jesus has addressed the evangelical counsels to every disciple or all baptised not all are called to live in a stable state of the evangelical counsels and radically so.  And I have quoted from the CCC in this regard.

The privately vowed person to the evangelical counsels chooses to live in a stable form of these counsels not in imitation of religious life necessarily (some may feel a call to do so) rather in imitation of Jesus Himself – as the CCC states - as I have already quoted.

To demand that vowing the evangelical counsels privately is questionable, is to deny persons to vow to live as Jesus lived in poverty, chastity and obedience a life in the spirit of The Beatitudes – and in a consistent state in life.  While my obedience may not be as radical as in some expressions of religious life, my poverty is certainly more radical than in many forms of religious life.  "Radical" is a very big word. 

 If one finds their baptismal promises inadequately demanding, then perhaps it is time to take a look at them and consider why that is so. One can specify how these call one at this particular time without making added vows.

 

This is very true and quite skillfully, if unkindly, worded.  It is not necessarily finding baptismal promises inadequate - rather to build on them and in imitation of Jesus and His Person and His Life - and for the sake of The Kingdom.  However to deny or challenge that there is a vocation such as private vows to the evangelical counsels in the lay state is to be opposed to what The Church tells us. It is also opposing those who are aware of a call to make private vows and denying their consciousness as valid. This is challenging Canon Law and you are quite free to do so, while any person vowed (privately or canonically) to obedience is not - without compromising obedience per se.

  All vocations no matter which build or have a foundation in Baptism.  Those in private vows to the evangelical counsels renounce as it were for one the married state in life and in order to live more radically the call to Chastity and for the sake of The Kingdom. They also vow to live the counsel of Poverty in some radical form along with the vow of obedience.  As the CCC tells us, the evangelical counsels remove what might be opposed to GROWTH in Charity, while not necessarily opposed to Charity. 

 

Radical is a very big word – even in religious life forms of this radical state vary and in degree.

 

I would point out also that there may be some who have clear impediments to any form of canonical vow and as The Church permits have decided to embrace the vows in imitation of Jesus (and religious life) anyway and in the lay state with a desire to give their whole life to Jesus and for the sake of The Kingdom.  If  their choice is to imitate the vows of religious life in some way (and in the person and life of Jesus) why all the fuss and bother?

 

Ordinarily it makes no sense to vow obedience which is akin to religious obedience unless one will have a legitimate superior and a Rule to which one is obligated to conform one's life and will. (Obedience as listening already binds each Christian.) That is why some canonists and I agree that a vow of obedience is usually meaningless apart from either community or solitary vowed life.

 

What Jesus has called us to in obedience as a counsel for all the baptised is obedience to The Will of God - in whatever form it is expressed and for Catholics, canonically vowed or not,and  this is expressed in and through The Church.  With the canonically vowed, The Church authorizes some authority to be a direct expression of The Will of God for those vowed.  A privately vowed person is free to choose some authority  in The Church to which to vow obedience.  This is not “meaningless” since obedience as a counsel will assist in the growth of Charity as the CCC states.  This is one of the things that disturbed me in some posts into some threads – that Charity seemed not to be present at all. 

 

The privately vowed person is also quite free to write a ‘rule of life’ for themselves since The Church has not stated to the contrary.  In fact in Vita Consecrata JPII has put the dedicated life as a form of consecrated living (“special consecration”) and under the sub-heading of “Thanksgiving for The Consecrated Life”.

 

To state anything else is simply to be contrary to what The Church tells us.  We are quite free to have our own concepts; however, there is a limit, a very clear boundary, on those concepts as a Catholic and under the counsel of obedience.  One’s concepts are either in line with The Church or they are not, either within the boundary of any vow of obedience, or outside it.

 

If you consider the lay state under private vows questionable, then you are free to do so.  I choose to hear and apply what The Church states and as coming under my private vow of obedience.  Also, I consulted two theologians on the matter (for two Church authorities only) prior to making life vows.  Of course, you are quite free to disagree with their affirmation of life private vows as a quite valid potential.  This is simply a theological disagreement between those who have some education in the science – and nothing new, nothing new whatsoever. 

 

Dear Barbara Therese and all:

 

Thank you so much for the above post. I do not wish to Hijack this thread but only give some small witness which I pray will bear some fruit. I thought to wait longer before responding until my rational mind had caught up with my emotions but my heart urges me to speak. Before I go on I warn all that this will be highly emotionally charged on some levels  with emotions of love, joy, sadness sorrow, ,yes some anger, but most of all Gratitude for the gift of my life and the most wondrous gift of my vocation.

 

This will be long , so most probably i will have to write it in parts as my strength allows. (Laughing and as your stamina wanes).

 

I chose not to start another thread as there are so many going on right now loaded with legalese talk I dare not open another can of worms . Yes, some of the discussions do shed light and that is  an important factor in making sound faith filled decisions ; but i find many of them shed little or no warmth and love.   For  me some of the posts sound  like everything is taking place in the head  and has not yet reached the heart ( but that is only an impression i get for ONLY GOD KNOWS  the heart of another and and i have no right to judge anyone save myself. But after reading  many of these posts i do not come away feeling more ardent in my love for God but instead feel drained and frustrated for there is nothing them to sustain the spirit and feed the soul. Yes i may come away a little smarter, but that is about it;  and the spiritual life is so so much more! It is endless and wide, wondrous, deep and boundless!  Most of all it is the most passionate love affair anyone can have no matter what state of life one is called to. It is that what my heart seeks. It is that that God has gifted me with even when i stumble or fall badly that gift still remains.

 

The vocation station I used to know was a simple joyful supportive place for the most part free of constant distinctions, classifications and re-classifications of everything. It was a place of meeting for simple  childlike joy of souls  no matter what age, who in the fervor of their love only wanted to find a community of support and gentle loving guidance that would fan the tiny flames of their vocation into a burning fire until each one of us found where and how God was calling us to that intimate love affair with him. For those of us already in religious life it was a refreshing place to renew our spirits and encourage others  and rejoice as they began their own wondrous journey to God.

 

It seems lately i see some of that is being lost to cynicism and silly stuff like what vocation is more special than another which requires more serious commitment and dedication etc.... Lets face it. No one is openly saying that but that is what is happening. It is just that out of politeness or fear of being banned that no one is calling a spade a spade.

 

My Brothers and sisters, when we have to resort to doing things like that, even on an unconscious level, it is often a sign that there is something still missing in us or perhaps issue,old hurts, or insecurities, that we have not dealt with.  As for myself, after reading some posts, i use a simple general rule of thumb to go by. "If it increases my love for God or challenges me to do that, i let it in my heart and mind and if it does not, I simple walk away. My house is already cluttered with thing I must let go of, why add more? God cannot fully fill a soul  the way he would like if it is already inhabited. But that is another topic.

 

The second reason I am posting this on this particular thread, is that i see my life is now coming full circle to where my love affair with God began It began at age 14 with private vows. I am now 56 I have laughed loved, cried, experienced at times such beauty beyond words,  I have suffered, fallen ,wanted to run away, at times even been tempted to want to end my life. But I have NEVER for one second regretted giving my self to God, yes, even as a teenager.

 

When God calls  so gently and persistently and the love in ones heart burns so bright, to not respond is sheer agony for Love can only be answered by love to the heart that seeks God. Yes spiritual guidance is important, but i am afraid God called my heart even before i knew what spiritual guidance was!  Love for Love was the only answer I could comprehend in my heart. And it gave my heart peace.

 

If my thoughts or feeling will offend please do not read on.

[PhuturePriest]

Dear Barbara Therese and all:

 

Thank you so much for the above post. I do not wish to Hijack this thread but only give some small witness which I pray will bear some fruit. I thought to wait longer before responding until my rational mind had caught up with my emotions but my heart urges me to speak. Before I go on I warn all that this will be highly emotionally charged on some levels  with emotions of love, joy, sadness sorrow, ,yes some anger, but most of all Gratitude for the gift of my life and the most wondrous gift of my vocation.

 

This will be long , so most probably i will have to write it in parts as my strength allows. (Laughing and as your stamina wanes).

 

I chose not to start another thread as there are so many going on right now loaded with legalese talk I dare not open another can of worms . Yes, some of the discussions do shed light and that is  an important factor in making sound faith filled decisions ; but i find many of them shed little or no warmth and love.   For  me some of the posts sound  like everything is taking place in the head  and has not yet reached the heart ( but that is only an impression i get for ONLY GOD KNOWS  the heart of another and and i have no right to judge anyone save myself. But after reading  many of these posts i do not come away feeling more ardent in my love for God but instead feel drained and frustrated for there is nothing them to sustain the spirit and feed the soul. Yes i may come away a little smarter, but that is about it;  and the spiritual life is so so much more! It is endless and wide, wondrous, deep and boundless!  Most of all it is the most passionate love affair anyone can have no matter what state of life one is called to. It is that what my heart seeks. It is that that God has gifted me with even when i stumble or fall badly that gift still remains.

 

The vocation station I used to know was a simple joyful supportive place for the most part free of constant distinctions, classifications and re-classifications of everything. It was a place of meeting for simple  childlike joy of souls  no matter what age, who in the fervor of their love only wanted to find a community of support and gentle loving guidance that would fan the tiny flames of their vocation into a burning fire until each one of us found where and how God was calling us to that intimate love affair with him. For those of us already in religious life it was a refreshing place to renew our spirits and encourage others  and rejoice as they began their own wondrous journey to God.

 

It seems lately i see some of that is being lost to cynicism and silly stuff like what vocation is more special than another which requires more serious commitment and dedication etc.... Lets face it. No one is openly saying that but that is what is happening. It is just that out of politeness or fear of being banned that no one is calling a spade a spade.

 

My Brothers and sisters, when we have to resort to doing things like that, even on an unconscious level, it is often a sign that there is something still missing in us or perhaps issue,old hurts, or insecurities, that we have not dealt with.  As for myself, after reading some posts, i use a simple general rule of thumb to go by. "If it increases my love for God or challenges me to do that, i let it in my heart and mind and if it does not, I simple walk away. My house is already cluttered with thing I must let go of, why add more? God cannot fully fill a soul  the way he would like if it is already inhabited. But that is another topic.

 

The second reason I am posting this on this particular thread, is that i see my life is now coming full circle to where my love affair with God began It began at age 14 with private vows. I am now 56 I have laughed loved, cried, experienced at times such beauty beyond words,  I have suffered, fallen ,wanted to run away, at times even been tempted to want to end my life. But I have NEVER for one second regretted giving my self to God, yes, even as a teenager.

 

When God calls  so gently and persistently and the love in ones heart burns so bright, to not respond is sheer agony for Love can only be answered by love to the heart that seeks God. Yes spiritual guidance is important, but i am afraid God called my heart even before i knew what spiritual guidance was!  Love for Love was the only answer I could comprehend in my heart. And it gave my heart peace.

 

If my thoughts or feeling will offend please do not read on.

 

Thank you so much for posting this. I too have felt Vocation Station has strayed very far away from what it was. Yes, discernment and things related to it are serious; that's why we need to be lighthearted at times. If you take something too seriously, it kills the natural joy it brings. We need to be lighthearted again and make this place much more welcoming. So many ridiculous arguments (I decided to call a spade a spade, as you mention in your post) that have been going on recently have taken the joy out of discerning. I can tell you in just two years of discerning that discerning in itself brings about times of anxiety and dread. There is no reason to bring about any more than there naturally is in it with silly arguments.

Edited January 6, 2013 by FuturePriest387

[BarbTherese]

Thank you for the contributions.  It's a bit hard to reply, not understanding where you find "silly arguments" are applying and other comments that to me are obscure and this is not to say that they are - only that such as I find them so.

It is very sad and I agree when a thread in this forum in particular becomes argumentative.  For my part, I have tried to state with quotations from various Church reliable sources that individual private vows to the evangelical counsels (outside of an insitution of some kind) are indeed a valid form of following Christ in a radical manner.  For my part again, I have discerned I think probably most every form of consecrated life (except Consecrated Virginity as I am ineligible) and also Third Orders for laity and with spiritual direction in that discerning, and continue on this path of private vows outside of any Church approved institution and with an increasing real sense of call and vocation.  There has been a variety of reasons why my discerning with an institution may have ceased or not really begun in the first place.

 

 It is my experience over some years now that discussion on private vows outside of a Church approved institution very often do become argumentative sadly and due to the fact that some wish to dismiss the way of life as a potential call from The Lord in the first place.  I did like the comment by nunsense that no matter what a particular person educated in Church matters said, her private vows were important to her.  Or words to this effect.  I feel the same way; however, if The Church decided against such vows as mine, I would follow whatever The Church said while probably continuing to live the vows (while knowing that my private vows no longer no existed) and in whatever context The Church decided in the lay state in secular life - and of course this is my current state in life and call in life (i.e. to secular life) and with every fibre of my being.  My very sincere and active hope is that I would never be outside of what The Church has to say on any matter where it is necessary to embrace what The Church has to state.  Iam quite confident that nunsense would probably feel the same way or very similar, along those lines.  She is not available just now having just entered a Carmelite monastery.

I do not share with others ina general sense, not even my family, that I have made private vows.  Within my family and each community to which I belong, I am simply a divorced Catholic with an annulment if anyone should enquire and have been so for over 30 years now - and with these private vows.  It has been a long journey and up a few creeks and wrong turns on the way most often due to episodes of my Bipolar condition and a confused state of mind.  Thankfully and beyond my hopes and anticipates, short of a near on miracle, the past ten years have seen serious episodes of Bipolar be a memory from the past and these are very painful memories.

I decided to 'come out the closet, on Catholic discussion sites if necessary including where discussions on private vows may be taking place - again, if I thought it necessary and most times it is, due to the argumentative nature of such threads and the presence of arguments totally against such a way, call and vocation as mine.  I decided to speak for the call and vocation to private vows as a private individual.

 

As for the head and the heart, some do not wish to share the heart's content at times.  This is not to state that the heart is as much in the vocation as the head - perhaps even moreso.  Heart, mind and soul.

 

Edit:  This thread did not start out to be argumentative although I confess I have jumped right in very deliberately into any argument against PV to the EC as an individual.  And will in the future I daresay should the situation arise once more.  It is another topic I can put on my list for discussion with my director.

Edited January 6, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

What possibly could be misunderstood is that very often I, for one, am battling for the right to make the vows in the first place and to live by them as I have defined each of the vows and submitted to my spiritual director at the time for approval.  He was (now dec'd) an Order priest and theologian who lived and worked at our Seminary lecturing in theology.  He gave his approval to my 'rule' without one single modification.   It does feel on these discussion forums and on the feeling level like a battle for survival, which of course it is in some aspects anyway and sometimes against those who are far better educated in Church matters than I will every be probably.  Be this as it may, it does not make such educated invidiuals of necessity correct in all their concepts and in their comments and most especially if reliable Church sources state to the contrary.

The only way that I have and others like me have to defend our desire and right to live in this radical way in the lay state and in secular life is by quoting Church sources and texts that support our decisions and as quite valid decisions in that there is nothing in Church Law (Canon Law) nor other reliable Church documents to give an indication that an individual outside of a group context making private vows to the evangelical counsels is somehow unwarranted nor wise.  Rather The Church speaks quite to the contrary.  If The Church should ever speak to the contrary, then I would be taking up what The Church has to state and with heart, mind and soul in obedience to The Church.

[Indwelling Trinity]

I humbly ask that no one take offense at what i write until i am able to complete my response adequately. As stated i the very beginning  i would be responding in parts. This subject is very near and dear to my heart. I have just come out of the hospital  ICU  to the floor unit and am forced to write in short spurts. After i have finished you can :bash: me LOL.

[Lil'Nun]

I have to concur, for what it is worth, with some of the sentiments above. Although I have not been on Phatmass as long as some I have noticed that, of late, the tone of VS has changed. This makes me a little sad. I am sure it's just a cyclical thing and do hope things will improve again.

Just my two cents worth.

[Indwelling Trinity]

Hello, My name is Catherine.

 

I am Sister Emmanuel's  blood sister and am writing on her behalf. Sister has Taken a turn for the worse this morning  and asks your prayers.  Sister has again gone into respiratory failure after an episode of bleeding internally and choking.  She is intubated and still conscious but lightly sedated.

 

She  has asked me  in writing to convey you her apologies at not finishing what she was saying to you. She sends her love to each of you and wants you to know that she will be praying for each of you until the she can return. 

 

Kindly,

 

Catherine Finnegan

 

 

[PhuturePriest]

Hello, My name is Catherine.

 

I am Sister Emmanuel's  blood sister and am writing on her behalf. Sister has Taken a turn for the worse this morning  and asks your prayers.  Sister has again gone into respiratory failure after an episode of bleeding internally and choking.  She is intubated and still conscious but lightly sedated.

 

She  has asked me  in writing to convey you her apologies at not finishing what she was saying to you. She sends her love to each of you and wants you to know that she will be praying for each of you until the she can return. 

 

Kindly,

 

Catherine Finnegan

 

Oh dear. I am so sorry to hear this. I will pray for your sister, and for you.

[BarbTherese]

I am very sad and concerned also and will be praying for her.  When she said in a post that she was in a hospital environment, I had thought she must have been a nurse - not that she was a patient herself.  Assure her of prayer and I thank her for her own prayers.  It is an outstanding kindness and very thoughtful, entirely loving, of her to think of us in her own time of need.  I send my love, prayer and thoughts.

 

Barb

Edited January 7, 2013 by BarbaraTherese