Question About The Latin Mass

[PhuturePriest]

I went to Latin Mass for the first time on Christmas (I was recruited to sing with the choir) and I was so lost the whole time! I think it was a High Mass (There is such a thing right?) and basically the only thing I knew was not to say Amen when receiving. But I did end up liking Latin Mass more than I thought I would... 

 

I've only been to one Latin Mass in my life. I'm going to a friend's wedding in April, and it's going to be a full Latin wedding Mass. Apparently those take like, two hours.

[Nihil Obstat]

That is what Katy and I are doing this summer. :proud:

 

[NonNovi]

I went to Latin Mass for the first time on Christmas  and I was so lost the whole time!

Yeah, the EF asks some effort, you actively have to learn what every part is. That's what makes it so much more interesting. Keep going, you'll get the hang of it ;)

 

There is also a Solemn Pontifical Mass, when it is celebrated by a bishop. It is rather complex, and I have not been fortunate enough to see one in person yet.

A bishop can also celebrate like he is just a priest. I've seen a Pontifical High Mass, it's awesome. I've also seen a Pontifical Novus Ordo High Mass in Latin. Also awesome.

 

In the usus antiquior, a lay response is not necessary or expected. As I said, it is not wrong, but it is also not necessary. As far as I understand these things.

There always should be an altar server when celebrating Mass. He represents the laity and has to say the answers. So actually answers are  necessary, but not by the people. (of course, in some cases priests say a private Mass without anybody present and answer themselves, but that's not what the Missal prescribes)

[Nihil Obstat]

There always should be an altar server when celebrating Mass. He represents the laity and has to say the answers. So actually answers are  necessary, but not by the people. (of course, in some cases priests say a private Mass without anybody present and answer themselves, but that's not what the Missal prescribes)

 

Yes, I should have said congregational response. But that is what I meant.

[Apotheoun]

I really do not like the restriction of the congregations responses to the server, and the Church Fathers would have found that idea to be highly irregular.

[Nihil Obstat]

I really do not like the restriction of the congregations responses to the server, and the Church Fathers would have found that idea to be highly irregular.

 

Well it is not a mandated thing. I think calling it a restriction is not necessarily correct. More like a custom.

I actually prefer when the congregation joins in the responses.

[Laudate_Dominum]

This is highly irregular!!

[Apotheoun]

Well it is not a mandated thing. I think calling it a restriction is not necessarily correct. More like a custom.

I actually prefer when the congregation joins in the responses.

 

It is a Late Medieval custom, because you have councils and bishops even in the early Middle Ages saying that at least two "viri ieiuni" at a minimum must be present during the liturgy (see Joseph Jungmann's reference in his book "The Mass of the Roman Rite" to Bishop Thorlak of Iceland's penitential written in the mid-12th century). In fact, a Synod in Paris (A.D. 829) said that private masses were a practice that had arisen through "partim incuria" and "partim avaritia."

 

I also prefer congregational singing of the responses because the liturgy is formulated as a true interaction and cooperation between the priest and the lay faithful.

 

After Vatican II all that really was necessary was an attempt to get the people to sing their portions of the liturgy. There was no need for a liturgical commission, nor did the Roman Missal need a complete overhaul.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Fidei Defensor]

It is a Late Medieval custom, because you have councils and bishops even in the early Middle Ages saying that at least two "viri ieiuni" at a minimum being present during the liturgy (see Joseph Jungmann's reference in his book "The Mass of the Roman Rite" to Bishop Thorlak of Iceland's penitential written in the mid-12th century).

 

I also prefer congregational singing of the responses because the liturgy is formulated as a true interaction and cooperation between the priest and the lay faithful.

 

After Vatican II all that really was necessary was an attempt to get the people to sing their portions of the liturgy.  There was no need for a liturgical commission, nor did the Roman Missal need a complete overhaul.

 

Thanks for your opinion. However, the Roman Church has its own traditions just as the Eastern Church does. I could call the Eastern Liturgies a big smelly pile of fluffy poo, but I don't. Because 1) It's none of my business, and 2) who the hell cares?

[Apotheoun]

Thanks for your opinion. However, the Roman Church has its own traditions just as the Eastern Church does. I could call the Eastern Liturgies a big smelly pile of fluffy poo, but I don't. Because 1) It's none of my business, and 2) who the hell cares?

 

That is why I only referenced Western sources.  The Roman Church does have an ancient tradition, but of course private masses and the like are not ancient.

[Fidei Defensor]

That is why I only referenced Western sources.  The Roman Church does have an ancient tradition, but of course private masses and the like are not ancient.

 

Indeed. I'll make sure to call up the Church Fathers if I am curious about how they feel about the modern Latin Rite liturgy. 

[Apotheoun]

Indeed. I'll make sure to call up the Church Fathers if I am curious about how they feel about the modern Latin Rite liturgy. 

 

No need to do that, you can just read their writings, something that would no doubt benefit you greatly.

[Fidei Defensor]

No need to do that, you can just read their writings, something that would no doubt benefit you greatly.

 

I have. But I also recognize that I am but one insignificant mind and that I trust God to guide His Church to the ends he desires.

[Apotheoun]

As far as the modern Roman Rite liturgy is concerned, the Fathers probably would not be too keen on a liturgy being created by a committee, but ignoring that point for a moment, their view of it would probably be determined by how it is celebrated.  Is it celebrated reverently or irreverently?  Etc.

 

 

I have. But I also recognize that I am but one insignificant mind and that I trust God to guide His Church to the ends he desires.

 

 

 

St. Maximos the Confessor, a lay monk, would tell you that every Christian is a guardian of orthodoxy.  In fact, all the great heresiarchs were bishops or priests.   :smile3:

Edited January 11, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Fidei Defensor]

As far as the modern Roman Rite liturgy is concerned, the Fathers probably would not be too keen on a liturgy being created by a committee, but ignoring that point for a moment, their view of it would probably be determined by how it is celebrated.  Is it celebrated reverently or irreverently?  Etc.

 

 

 

 

 

St. Maximos the Confessor, a lay monk, would tell you that every Christian is a guardian of orthodoxy.  In fact, all the great heresiarchs were bishops or priests.   :smile3:

 

Well if and when I'm called to Rome for my opinion on the matter, I'll spill my guts.

[Apotheoun]

Well if and when I'm called to Rome for my opinion on the matter, I'll spill my guts.

 

Rome isn't the Church, so you don't need to be "called to Rome" in order to defend the faith and preserve holy orthodoxy.  The Church is wherever the people are gathered together under the presidency of a bishop (or one of his presbyters) in order to celebrate the Holy Eucharist.

[Fidei Defensor]

Rome isn't the Church, so you don't need to be "called to Rome" in order to defend the faith and preserve holy orthodoxy.  The Church is wherever the people are gathered together under the presidency of a bishop (or one of his presbyters) in order to celebrate the Holy Eucharist.

 

Fancy that. I'll go ahead and let my parish priest know that we can shoot the bishop and email and then go ahead and make some changes to the Liturgy. I am quite partial to those plastic blow horns from sports events.

[Apotheoun]

Fancy that. I'll go ahead and let my parish priest know that we can shoot the bishop and email and then go ahead and make some changes to the Liturgy. I am quite partial to those plastic blow horns from sports events.

 

Are you really a passive Christian?  Can there even be such a thing?  You as a lay Christian, a member of the body of Christ, have a duty to defend the faith just like St. Maximos.  If you wish to joke about your powerlessness, fine, but I take being a Christian seriously.

[Fidei Defensor]

Are you really a passive Christian?  Can there even be such a thing?  You as a lay Christian, a member of the body of Christ, have a duty to defend the faith just like St. Maximos.  If you wish to joke about your powerlessness, fine, but I take being a Christian seriously.

 

No. However, you come off as very holier-than-thou with your constant comments about what you don't like about the Latin rite. No one cares. You attend your Eastern rite liturgy and we'll attend our own.  Maybe things surrounding authority and structure are different in the East, but I follow the traditions of authority of the Roman Church so I couldn't give a damn about what the East thinks.

[Apotheoun]

No. However, you come off as very holier-than-thou with your constant comments about what you don't like about the Latin rite. No one cares. You attend your Eastern rite liturgy and we'll attend our own.  Maybe things surrounding authority and structure are different in the East, but I follow the traditions of authority of the Roman Church so I couldn't give a damn about what the East thinks.

 

And you come off as someone with a chip on his shoulder (mainly due to "the original sin" thread no doubt). But who cares how either of us "comes off," what is important is the truth, and speaking clearly. There is far too much fog in the Church today. Just look at the horrible liturgies in large numbers of Churches. Perhaps if the lay faithful would stand up together and say "enough is enough . . . the liturgy is sacred," some of these nonsensical things (e.g., clown masses, strange dances and other entertainments) would cease. Maybe Western Christians need to re-evaluate the liturgical reform of the 1960s, and take what was good from it and apply it to the older Roman liturgy and dump the new one.  

Edited January 12, 2013 by Apotheoun