The P&p Debate

[Iacobus]

Colleen (Elizabeth is not dumb but prejudiced posts) and I (Elizabeth is dumb posts) have a blog debate running over wheiter Elizabeth Bennet (Of Pride and Prejudice) is dumb.

So I will present to a candid world the debate. BTW

The URLs for the blogs are

[url="http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Iacobus42"]Iacobus[/url]

and

[url="http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=LittleIrishRose"]Colleen[/url]

[Iacobus]

My 1st post.

[quote]LittleIrishRose (I think the little refers to her brain, hehe) says that I am wrong in calling Elizabeth Bennet dumb and slow. So rather than give in, even though I have only read about 33% of the book I shall debate her. Hehe. Therefore, todays blog entry (at least the now I am typing now, hehe) is "Elizabeth Bennet: The foolish, dumb, slow, silly woman"

Granted Elizabeth Bennet is NOT, when compered to Lyida, silly and as foolish. However, when the men of the milta are spoken of ALL Five of the Bennet girls are excited. They all, without exception, want to have a good relationship with the officer. Lyida is the only one whos real desire is stress, but what can one excpet out of a 15 year old girl. Esp a girl not from America (hehe, inside joke).

Moreover, Mr. Darcy is in love with Elizabeth. It starts with him "admiring her fine eyes." But it soon progress to him loving her. After Elizabeth travels the many miles to see her sick sister Jane it is only Mr. Darcy who does not speak ill of her appearance. In fact he says the "excrise has only made her more beautiful." Mind you she is covered in mud and does not appear in a form becoming of a woman of her status.

Therefore, it can be assumed with great sureness that Mr. Darcy truly loves Elizabeth.

He makes himself present near her at all times during the four days she is in the same house as he. He will not directly speak to her, however, but does stand and listen to her conversations.

He also, during the sence when Mary (I think) was singing at the pianoforte Mr. Darcy stares at Elizabeth. She sees his stare and assumes that it is something that is terrible wrong with her. However, he is infautated with her and is taking in her beauty.

Later at the ball, Mr. Darcy asks Elizabeth to dance and speaks (somewhat) with her. He did not do this with any other ladies and would normaly refuse to dance with anyone of a lower class than he. And dancing skill is not a sign of high status as even the most low of the savages can dance.

But the fact that Mr. Darcy asked Elizabeth to dance is a large sign. He holds her in a respect that none of the other Bennet girls have from him.

Yet, Elizabeth fails to see that Mr. Darcy admires and loves her. She thinks he hates he due to his stare and focus on her. And even with the dance at the ball she still thinks he hates her. She does not see that he has chosen her to dance with even though she is of less conqusese than he is.

Her inabilty to see Mr. Darcy's love or admoration for her and her silly behavior dealing with the officers of the milta unit are proof of Elizabeth's silly nature and her dumb traits.
[/quote]

[Iacobus]

Colleens 1st reply

[quote]In response to a certain individual's post in his blog, I hereby write this. I shall go paragraph by paragraph, analyzing the individual's opinions.

So, without further ado, my post, entitled: Why Elizabeth Bennet is Not Dumb. Please know that this is written in fun and the tone is really not a nasty one. Take the points seriously, but not the attitude.

LittleIrishRose (I think the little refers to her brain, hehe) says that I am wrong in calling Elizabeth Bennet dumb and slow. So rather than give in, even though I have only read about 33% of the book I shall debate her. Hehe. Therefore, todays blog entry (at least the now I am typing now, hehe) is "Elizabeth Bennet: The foolish, dumb, slow, silly woman"

Okay, first of all, the little does not refer to the brain. Iacobus is wrong in calling Elizabeth Bennet dumb and slow. He shouldn't even try to defend himself, because, as he himself admits, he has only read 1/3 of the book. Though I must applaud his effort. His decision to read the book was voluntary and quite amazing, I must say.

Granted Elizabeth Bennet is NOT, when compered to Lyida, silly and as foolish. However, when the men of the milta are spoken of ALL Five of the Bennet girls are excited. They all, without exception, want to have a good relationship with the officer. Lyida is the only one whos real desire is stress, but what can one excpet out of a 15 year old girl. Esp a girl not from America (hehe, inside joke).

*rolls eyes at attempt at humor* Of course, Lydia is the epitome of silliness, foolishness, stupidity and thickness. And what is wrong with being excited about meeting some soldiers? I don't think that has anything to do with being slow.

Moreover, Mr. Darcy is in love with Elizabeth. It starts with him "admiring her fine eyes." But it soon progress to him loving her. After Elizabeth travels the many miles to see her sick sister Jane it is only Mr. Darcy who does not speak ill of her appearance. In fact he says the "excrise has only made her more beautiful." Mind you she is covered in mud and does not appear in a form becoming of a woman of her status.

Yes. This is so.

Therefore, it can be assumed with great sureness that Mr. Darcy truly loves Elizabeth.

Agreed.

He makes himself present near her at all times during the four days she is in the same house as he. He will not directly speak to her, however, but does stand and listen to her conversations.

But yet he does not give her any reason to think that he likes her under these above circumstances.

He also, during the sence when Mary (I think) was singing at the pianoforte Mr. Darcy stares at Elizabeth. She sees his stare and assumes that it is something that is terrible wrong with her. However, he is infautated with her and is taking in her beauty.

And why shouldn't she? She overheard him slight her at their first meeting. He told Mr. Bingley that "she is tolerable, I suppose, but not enough to tempt me." She can't help but think that he is in some way thinking ill of her. He has not said anything to make her think otherwise.

Later at the ball, Mr. Darcy asks Elizabeth to dance and speaks (somewhat) with her. He did not do this with any other ladies and would normaly refuse to dance with anyone of a lower class than he. And dancing skill is not a sign of high status as even the most low of the savages can dance.

Key scene, but still, doesn't mean she's slow. She's just now very prejudiced against him because of what he said about her. There's a difference between prejudice and slowness. Sometimes it is not apparent, but in this case, there is.

But the fact that Mr. Darcy asked Elizabeth to dance is a large sign. He holds her in a respect that none of the other Bennet girls have from him.

Yes. But like I said, it does not mean she's stupid.

Yet, Elizabeth fails to see that Mr. Darcy admires and loves her. She thinks he hates he due to his stare and focus on her. And even with the dance at the ball she still thinks he hates her. She does not see that he has chosen her to dance with even though she is of less conqusese than he is.

Doesn't matter. She's blinded by prejudice.

Her inabilty to see Mr. Darcy's love or admoration for her and her silly behavior dealing with the officers of the milta unit are proof of Elizabeth's silly nature and her dumb traits.

She's not silly. She didn't act silly with the officers. She's not dumb. Period. You shall see . . . . I feel like spoiling it for you. Hehe.
[/quote]

[Iacobus]

My reply to Colleen

[quote] In reply to the slow ones post "Why Elizabeth Bennet is Not Dumb." I present. 

«Okay, first of all, the little does not refer to the brain. Iacobus is wrong in calling Elizabeth Bennet dumb and slow. He shouldn't even try to defend himself, because, as he himself admits, he has only read 1/3 of the book. Though I must applaud his effort. His decision to read the book was voluntary and quite amazing, I must say.»

Well I must say I try to be humble!

«*rolls eyes at attempt at humor* Of course, Lydia is the epitome of silliness, foolishness, stupidity and thickness. And what is wrong with being excited about meeting some soldiers? I don't think that has anything to do with being slow.»

Yes Lydia is silly. However, so is her sister Elizabeth. They are all silly about the soldiers. None more so than Lydia but all are to a degree. This is just proof of Elizabeth being silly. It has no bearing on her slownness, that is handled in other areas of this proof.

«Yes. This is so.

Agreed.»

So it is agreed that Darcy loves Elizabeth.

«But yet he does not give her any reason to think that he likes her under these above circumstances.»

If someone who "hated" you keep close to you and would listen to your coverations with great intrest, would you not see that as odd? He attachment to Elizabeth for those days is more than ample chance for Elizabeth to see his love. This is an example of Elizabeth being slow, thick, and rather dumb.

«And why shouldn't she? She overheard him slight her at their first meeting. He told Mr. Bingley that "she is tolerable, I suppose, but not enough to tempt me." She can't help but think that he is in some way thinking ill of her. He has not said anything to make her think otherwise.»

He said she was tolerable. Coming form the mouth of Mr. Darcy that is a complement of infintante value. He said she was not enough to tempt him, yes. However, her eyes were.

«Key scene, but still, doesn't mean she's slow. She's just now very prejudiced against him because of what he said about her. There's a difference between prejudice and slowness. Sometimes it is not apparent, but in this case, there is.»

He asked her to dance and spoke to her. She MUSH have been aware that there was something up with him at this point. Yet, she is still unaware of it. She acts as if it is normal for him to dance. After he complained about dancing, etc. She should have been able to detect something was up. And it could not have been mean. Mr. Darcy has too much pride to risk it on being mean to Vera, umm I meant Elizabeth, hehe, and losing his honor. Thereby, it can be reached taht Mr. Darcy feels something for Elizabeth. She is blinded and blinded by more than prejudice, but blinded by lack of insight into Darcy. Due to that lack of insight she is dumb and slow.

«Yes. But like I said, it does not mean she's stupid.»

She cannot see Mr. Darcy as Mr. Darcy truly is.

«Doesn't matter. She's blinded by prejudice.»

Then she is really blinded by more than mere prejudice.

«She's not silly. She didn't act silly with the officers. She's not dumb. Period. You shall see . . . . I feel like spoiling it for you. Hehe. »

She did act silly about the officers. She was as excitied as the other girls over the officers wintering in the neighborhood. She was dumb, as shown by her lack of insight into Mr. Darcy.
[/quote]

[Iacobus]

Her reply

[quote]lol, okay, here's my reply to Iacobus.

Yes Lydia is silly. However, so is her sister Elizabeth. They are all silly about the soldiers. None more so than Lydia but all are to a degree. This is just proof of Elizabeth being silly. It has no bearing on her slownness, that is handled in other areas of this proof.

So are you saying that any girl who happens to enjoy being with some guys is silly?

So it is agreed that Darcy loves Elizabeth.

No question there.
If someone who "hated" you keep close to you and would listen to your coverations with great intrest, would you not see that as odd? He attachment to Elizabeth for those days is more than ample chance for Elizabeth to see his love. This is an example of Elizabeth being slow, thick, and rather dumb.

If someone that already said something unkind about me started staring at you, I would be a little creeped out, yes. I don't see her as being dumb here. She's just very much prejudiced against him and refuses to see any good in him, because she is blinded by prejudice.
He said she was tolerable. Coming form the mouth of Mr. Darcy that is a complement of infintante value. He said she was not enough to tempt him, yes. However, her eyes were.

How was she to know that was a compliment? She just met the guy. And just before that he got out of dancing with her. He complimented her sister and not her. And I certainly don't see it as a compliment. Her eyes were what got him eventually. But not at that first meeting. Then his attitude toward her changed.
He asked her to dance and spoke to her. She MUSH have been aware that there was something up with him at this point. Yet, she is still unaware of it. She acts as if it is normal for him to dance. After he complained about dancing, etc. She should have been able to detect something was up. And it could not have been mean. Mr. Darcy has too much pride to risk it on being mean to Vera, umm I meant Elizabeth, hehe, and losing his honor. Thereby, it can be reached taht Mr. Darcy feels something for Elizabeth. She is blinded and blinded by more than prejudice, but blinded by lack of insight into Darcy. Due to that lack of insight she is dumb and slow.

Sure, she was aware that something was up, but what was she to think? The reason why she refused to dance with him was because he slighted her. It has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with prejudice and pride.
She cannot see Mr. Darcy as Mr. Darcy truly is.

He wasn't doing too much of a good job letting her see him as he is.
Then she is really blinded by more than mere prejudice.

Pride, maybe. But not stupidity.
She did act silly about the officers. She was as excitied as the other girls over the officers wintering in the neighborhood. She was dumb, as shown by her lack of insight into Mr. Darcy.

Nah-uh. See, he was too stubborn and proud and prejudiced, and she was too stubborn and proud and prejudiced to realize that they both loved each other.

Oh how I want to spoil it for you! Have you gotten to Mr. Wickham yet?

Lol, this is going nowhere, lol.
[/quote]

[Iacobus]

My reply

[quote]So are you saying that any girl who happens to enjoy being with some guys is silly?

No. But I am saying Lydia was silly. The other girls were silly. They were all really excited about the soldiers coming. This excitment makes them silly. Elizabeth was not immune to this excitment. Therefore she is silly.

If someone that already said something unkind about me started staring at you, I would be a little creeped out, yes. I don't see her as being dumb here. She's just very much prejudiced against him and refuses to see any good in him, because she is blinded by prejudice.

She was dumb and prejudice in that she did not see this. It was clear as day that Mr. Darcy likes her. How she doesn't see it is beyond me.

How was she to know that was a compliment? She just met the guy. And just before that he got out of dancing with her. He complimented her sister and not her. And I certainly don't see it as a compliment. Her eyes were what got him eventually. But not at that first meeting. Then his attitude toward her changed.

She was to know that it was a compliment after she saw what kinda of person Mr. Darcy was. How was Mr. Darcy supposed to know to dance with her? He hated dancing unless it was with one that he loved. So he complimented her sister in front to Jane's suitor. Who was his friend. Of course he would speak kindly of her. The eyes got to him at the 1st meeting however he did not express the fact until later.

Sure, she was aware that something was up, but what was she to think? The reason why she refused to dance with him was because he slighted her. It has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with prejudice and pride.

She failed to see that he was in love with her. It is so clear that one can see it through prejudice.

Nah-uh. See, he was too stubborn and proud and prejudiced, and she was too stubborn and proud and prejudiced to realize that they both loved each other.

So she DOES love him, eh? I though so. I have yet to see much of Mr. Wickham. I think he just got back from London.
[/quote]

[Iacobus]

Colleen's reply

[quote]Once more, here we go again, lol.

No. But I am saying Lydia was silly. The other girls were silly. They were all really excited about the soldiers coming. This excitment makes them silly. Elizabeth was not immune to this excitment. Therefore she is silly.

Naw, naw, naw. *sigh*

She was dumb and prejudice in that she did not see this. It was clear as day that Mr. Darcy likes her. How she doesn't see it is beyond me.

She's prejudiced! Prejudiced! Blind! Get it? lol

She was to know that it was a compliment after she saw what kinda of person Mr. Darcy was. How was Mr. Darcy supposed to know to dance with her? He hated dancing unless it was with one that he loved. So he complimented her sister in front to Jane's suitor. Who was his friend. Of course he would speak kindly of her. The eyes got to him at the 1st meeting however he did not express the fact until later.

He didn't speak kindly of Elizabeth at that first meeting, though. She wouldn't know it was a compliment.
She failed to see that he was in love with her. It is so clear that one can see it through prejudice.

No, no, no! Prejudice blinds people! She would have seen it had she not had such a bad opinion of him already.
So she DOES love him, eh? I though so. I have yet to see much of Mr. Wickham. I think he just got back from London.

Whoops, didn't mean to . . . er, never mind. Yeah, just watch what happens with Wickham.[/quote]

[Iacobus]

If you are confused as to who posted what I am the one arguing that Elizabeth is dumb. Colleen is defending Elizabeth.

[Colleen]

lol. let's see if anyone cares, lol.

[Iacobus]

Someone has to. Maybe Vera, lol.

[Colleen]

Maybe, lol. Looks like no one else cares, though, lol.

[foundsheep]

Folks, is there any way we can just get a summary?

[Colleen]

Okay, I'm right and Iacobus is wrong. JK

[Iacobus]

LOL! Too lazy to read it all? LOL. Hehe.

Yeh. Elizabeth is dumb.

[Iacobus]

LOL! I am bumping this becuase well I am. LOL!

[StColette]

Elizabeth is not dumb !!

[Iacobus]

LOL! Liz, when compered to the utter genius of Mr. Darcy is SO dumb. LOL!

[StColette]

Mr. Darcy is a snob !!!!

[Iacobus]

It is SOOO clear that Mr. Darcy LOVES Liz. How does she not see it?

[crusader1234]

Everyone in Jane Austen books are slow. Nobody talks like that and nobody runs around like that. They should all go work on a farm with Mennonites and then quit acting like idiots.