Syllabus Of Errors Vs Nostra Aetate/dignitatus Humanae

[Evangetholic]

I see.

[Apotheoun]

Below is an helpful quotation from a book by Anglican author George Every, S.S.M., on the Eastern Christian rejection of the use of the term "vicar":

 

"[In the East] the primacy of Rome was seldom directly denied, in the sense of 'the primacy among her sisters, and the presidency in the first place of honor at General Councils,' but the Latin interpretation of the primacy in terms of jurisdiction revealed a difference between East and West in the doctrine of the Church. Attempts were made to relate this to the [i]filioque[/i], but these could not penetrate to the heart of the matter while the distinctive element in Latin theology was very little, if at all, understood in the East. St. Augustine was not translated into Greek before the fourteenth century. His [I]De Civitate Dei[/I] and his anti-Donatist writings did much to determine the development of the Western doctrine of the Church, as his anti-Pelagian writings are the starting-point of all Western controversies on the nature of grace. Grace is the connecting link between theology (in the Byzantine sense of the doctrine of the Trinity) and ecclesiology, the doctrine of the Church. The Eastern Churches never had a doctrine of created grace, of the gifts of God apart from the gift of Himself to the baptized who are buried and risen with Christ and live and reign in the Holy Spirit. Therefore they could never understand the idea of the vicar of Christ ruling His Church in His absence. They thought of their bishops not in the first place as rulers, but as high-priests in the presence of Christ and the Spirit, witnesses to the truth, and stewards of the mysteries of God." [George Every, S.S.M., [u]The Byzantine Patriarchate 451-1204[/u], pages 191-192]

[Evangetholic]

I agree with you I suppose. :) Why (and this is becoming rude us having this conversation here) is this statement unity when you make it, but schism when Constantinople says it and heresy when Canterbury says it?

Oh and George EVERY <3

[Apotheoun]

I agree with you I suppose. :) Why (and this is becoming rude us having this conversation here) is this statement unity when you make it, but schism when Constantinople says it and heresy when Canterbury says it?

That is a good question, but the only answer at present is that in the case of the Roman Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches the fellowship of communion is by mutual assent; while - in the case of the other groups you mentioned - this mutuality is missing (e.g., the Eastern Orthodox do not accept the idea that Rome can have doctrinal formulations that are distinct from those enshrined in the ecumenical councils - like the filioque, and so communion is not possible).

It should also be noted that Rome has not always been open to the idea of unity in diversity, which is why the Eastern Catholic Churches suffered varying degrees of Latinization over the years.  In fact, Rome at one time openly taught that the Latin liturgy was superior to all others, and that all other liturgies and para-liturgical devotions should be conformed - in varying degrees - to the practice of the Roman Church (this Roman ecclesial imperialism often went under the name "praestantia ritus latini").

[Evangetholic]

Honestly I don't know what to do. I cannot remain "an Anglican" my beliefs too closely match the Ancient Church to be subjected to Lady Priestesses, Lady Bishops, active homosexual clergy, "barely there supernaturalism," and all the rest. But I can neither see myself bending the knee to Rome nor swimming the sad gap that divides East from West. And other varieties of Protestantism are unimaginable to me, child of incense, and holy water that I am. What's a boy to do?

[PhuturePriest]

Honestly I don't know what to do. I cannot remain "an Anglican" my beliefs too closely match the Ancient Church to be subjected to Lady Priestesses, Lady Bishops, active homosexual clergy, "barely there supernaturalism," and all the rest. But I can neither see myself bending the knee to Rome nor swimming the sad gap that divides East from West. And other varieties of Protestantism are unimaginable to me, child of incense, and holy water that I am. What's a boy to do?

 

Read Crossing The Tiber by Stephen Ray. He used to be a Baptist that hated the Church, and it is his story on how he finally converted to Catholicism and accepted that it wasn't a pagan cult that worshiped statues and couldn't tell you what the four Gospels are. Even if it doesn't convince you, it's still an amazing story to read.

[Evangetholic]

I don't believe any of that nonsense about Catholicism.

[Apotheoun]

Honestly I don't know what to do. I cannot remain "an Anglican" my beliefs too closely match the Ancient Church to be subjected to Lady Priestesses, Lady Bishops, active homosexual clergy, "barely there supernaturalism," and all the rest. But I can neither see myself bending the knee to Rome nor swimming the sad gap that divides East from West. And other varieties of Protestantism are unimaginable to me, child of incense, and holy water that I am. What's a boy to do?

As a former Anglican myself I understand what it is like to be in your situation.  I will keep you in my prayers.

[Nihil Obstat]

[...]
It should also be noted that Rome has not always been open to the idea of unity in diversity, which is why the Eastern Catholic Churches suffered varying degrees of Latinization over the years.  
[...]

John Ireland. <_< He had much to answer for after he passed.

[Evangetholic]

John Ireland. <_< He had much to answer for after he passed.

 

Who dat?

Who dat?

 

Nigh chile you know. He dis man:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ireland_%28bishop%29

[Apotheoun]

John Ireland. <_< He had much to answer for after he passed.

I am surprised that Archbishop Ireland has not been declared a patron saint by the Eastern Orthodox Churches in the United States, because his actions against an Eastern Catholic priest named Fr. Alexis Toth (now known as St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre) brought about the conversion of almost half of the Eastern Catholics living in America to Orthodoxy at the end of the 19th century.

[Nihil Obstat]

From Wiki:

 

 

In 1891, Ireland refused to accept the credentials of Greek-Catholic priest Alexis Toth, citing the decree that married priests of the Eastern Catholic Churches were not permitted to function in the Catholic Church in the United States,^[16] despite Toth being a widower. Ireland then forbade Toth to minister to his own parishioners,^[17] despite the fact that Toth had jurisdiction from his own Bishop, and did not depend on Ireland. Ireland was also involved in efforts to expel all Eastern Catholic clergy from the United States of America.^[18] Forced into an impasse, Toth went on to lead thousands ofGreek-Catholics to leave the Catholic Church to join the Russian Orthodox Church.^[19] Because of this, Archbishop Ireland is sometimes referred to, ironically, as "The Father of the Orthodox Church in America." Marvin R. O'Connell, author of a biography on Ireland, summarizes the situation by stating that "if Ireland's advocacy of the blacks displayed him at his best, his belligerence toward the Greek Catholics showed him at his bull-headed worst."^[20]

 

[edit]

[Apotheoun]

Below is some information on the experience of Eastern Catholics in America that can be found in a book entitled: "Making the Irish American: History and Heritage of the Irish in the United States," by Joseph Lee and Marion R. Casey.

 

 

Perhaps the single biggest failure of the American Catholic Church in responding to the successive waves of Catholic immigrants involved the Ukrainian and Carpatho-Rusyn members. As Byzantine-rite Catholics (or Greek-rite Catholics, as they were commonly called), for centuries in Eastern Europe they had enjoyed their own hierarchy, liturgy, canon law, and the longstanding custom of a married clergy. In the United States, however, the latter practice aroused fierce hostility from the American bishops, who refused to permit it. "The possible loss of a few souls of the Greek rite," the U.S. archbishops declared in 1893, "bears no proportion to the blessings resulting from uniformity of discipline." As a result of this episcopal obtuseness, which deprived Byzantine-rite Catholics of the services of their own clergy, some 225,000 eventually left the Catholic Church and joined the hitherto numerically insignificant Russian Orthodox Church. The situation began to improve only after 1907 with the appointment of Stephen Ortynsky as the first Byzantine-rite bishop in the United States. (pages 577-578) 

[Evangetholic]

(Pope Pius IX [my favorite Pope] had your patriarch thrown to the ground and put his foot on his head--the late Victorian period sounds like an unpleasant one in the Catholic Church; this is also the period of time when they introduced segregation into Catholic churches (but not schools??) in my ancestral homeland--Louisiana.)

[Nihil Obstat]

(Pope Pius IX [my favorite Pope] had your patriarch thrown to the ground and put his foot on his head--the late Victorian period sounds like an unpleasant one in the Catholic Church; this is also the period of time when they introduced segregation into Catholic churches (but not schools??) in my ancestral homeland--Louisiana.)

It is a comfort (cold comfort, but comfort nonetheless) that there are also many examples of Catholic priests and leaders leading the shift in culture that stopped tolerating segregation. Archbishop Joseph Rummel, in 1955, interdicted an entire parish after the white parishioners refused to allow the new black priest enter. He worked really hard to desegregate his diocese. Took a lot of backlash for his efforts.

[Evangetholic]

The archdiocese in the state I live in--the most segregated state in the south by some lights--integrated Catholic schools in the 1940's, American Catholics have no cause for racial shame. My black family (I'm mixed race whether or not that is immediately apparent) were comfortable Middle Class practitioners of Catholicism from the start of the 1700's until about five minutes ago. 

 

Sometimes, that which unsettles us can reveal to us what we believe to be true (I'm unsettled by Catholicism). If I, believing the Bible, also believe that Catholic priests can forgive sins, and I believe what the Catholic Church believes about the Eucharist, might I (who have been baptized and confirmed as a Catholic) go to communion take back up the practice of a religion I did not willfully apostasize from (I was 13 and we just stopped going to mass it was only much later that my mother was bold enough to take us to the Episcopal church) even though I have major areas of disagreement with said institution.

[Nihil Obstat]

Sometimes, that which unsettles us can reveal to us what we believe to be true (I'm unsettled by Catholicism). If I, believing the Bible, also believe that Catholic priests can forgive sins, and I believe what the Catholic Church believes about the Eucharist, might I (who have been baptized and confirmed as a Catholic) go to communion take back up the practice of a religion I did not willfully apostasize from (I was 13 and we just stopped going to mass it was only much later that my mother was bold enough to take us to the Episcopal church) even though I have major areas of disagreement with said institution.

That would be something well worth discussing with a priest whom you trust. :) Are there any near you to whom you would feel comfortable sitting down with to ask some of those questions?

[Evangetholic]

No, but my grandmother's priest will do I suppose.

[Nihil Obstat]

No, but my grandmother's priest will do I suppose.

I always tell people that they should find a priest who offers the Traditional Mass, if at all possible. :hehe:

[Evangetholic]

Oh God, I hadn't even thought of the liturgy--I know you probably mean for doctrinal reasons, but "doing church" the way your average North American Catholic does is distressing to me; my Episcopal parishes are both "higher church" than the Catholic church here, but still I feel like I'm supposed to belong to the Church most Christians belong to and accept its teachings and practices with faith and with docility and obedience when faith fails. I'd love the Traditional Latin Mass, but the closest is an hour away and I do not drive because of an anxiety disorder.