Feeding 5000 With 2 Fish And 5 Loaves...

[Laudate_Dominum]

Whatever Aloysius just said.

[reyb]

To Anyone,

 

 

Please excuse me Mr. Delivery Boy. I just want to clarify something regarding this issue.

 

Suppose this ‘miraculous feeding for multitudes of people’ is truly a literal event (Please see John 6:10-12).

My question is this: What kind of food Jesus gave to them (with this miracle)? Is it a kind of food that spoils? Or is it a kind of food that gives eternal life?

 

Because in John 6:26-27 it is written,  â€˜Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

 

So, again what kind of food Jesus gave to these multitude of people? Is it a kind of  â€˜food for the stomach’ or Is it a kind of 'food that gives eternal life'?

 

Who is that 'Son of Man' who will give 'food that endures to eternal life' if Jesus' miraculous food will give a mere 'food for the stomach'?

 

Edited March 9, 2013 by reyb

[Guest]

Aloysius...Peace bro...Hope you are well...Thank you for your replies...Great stuff as always and gives me more to think about...I guess where I'm at with all this is if this stuff really did happen it had to be on a much smaller scale...And that's fine with me because it doesn't change how great the miracle/miracles are...The huge problem I see though is when these stories are so big and unbelievable that they become a problem for someone with reason and logic. And I'm not saying that reason and logic should trump faith...Although when you read some of these stories about the miracles and they are on a such huge scale and said to be witnessed by so many people it can plant a seed of doubt in a persons mind with reason and logic...So then that person says well I wonder if this really happened...So they look back at history and they find out Jesus can hardly be found except in the Gospels...So now even more doubt sets in...Because it becomes extremely difficult for one to believe that miracles on such a huge scale would not be recored anywhere except in the Gospels...And we have 2 writers in Josephus and Philo Judaeus who wrote specificaly about these type of things and lived in the time of Jesus and in the area...So a conclusion that makes sense for them not writing or hearing about it or taking it seriously is if it happened on a much smaller scale...Or some things were added to make the story sound better when told to future people...Sorta just like when Josephus words get added to in the 4th century to make it seem as if he calls Jesus the Christ and other things...I do realise this is a slippery slope to go down because then like Socrates said where do you draw the line ? Is it possible when Jesus came back with saints he only appeared to a small number instead of thousands ? Because one would think again if it happened to this extent surely you are going to hear about it in writings other then the Gospels...

Edited March 9, 2013 by Guest

[Era Might]

dboy, send me your email.

 

IMO, the question is not whether the miracles were real or not, but whether you believe or not. There are all kinds of intellectual structures you can build to support or deny whether something like the miracles were "historical facts." But remember that the Gospel is not philosophy.

 

 

See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

 

--Colossians 2:8

 

Believe simply, and not like the wise, or else don't believe at all.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2013 by Era Might

[Guest]

I read what you wrote again Alosyius...Good stuff...Also that was one of my theories that the crowd didn't realise what was really happening...Does the Bible say anywhere that the crowd was aware of the miracle ?

Edited March 9, 2013 by Guest

[Evangetholic]

Holy Church does not regard Her Sacred Texts as a collection of fables. It is a mistake in my opinion to try to resolve doubts (and I'm out of my depth here, because I've never had serious doubts) by seeking intellectually pleasing explanations of hard sayings. Jesus Christ is a person. He is a person who loves you DB and who wishes to live with you for an eternity. He will not be able to have this desire of His fulfilled if you apostasize from the faith--formally or by allowing your faith to wither away. If you doubt, then I'm willing to bet the real locus of your doubt is centered on the person of Christ, not on Scripture, and not even on the Church. If you want to know who He is and know it with a certitude, then ask Him.

 

He is faithful.

He is just.

And He'll hear and answer you.

 

[Guest]

Evan peace brother...I have always had a strong unbroken faith in God ( The Creator) since I can remember...My whole life...I have never once been atheist or agnostic to a loving creator...I will (for my own disgraced self) attempt to disagree with you on the part where you say my my problem isn't with scrioture but the person of Christ...When these doubts come on it is way more to do with scripture then Christ...My problem seems to become with not being able to explain some scripture or sometimes defend (old testement) them when asked by someone else or my own lame wondering self sitting alone in my apartment...It makes it even tougher when I go to atheist sites and read their presentation on the Bible and history...And attempt on my part to read them from an objective standpoint...When the conflict starts its not a conflict of wether I believe in God (The Creator) or not...The conflict becomes wether I believe and stand behind everything that's contained in Scripture and Christianity...And the answer is I do I'm just struggling...Like Era Might says it probably is best to believe simply or to not believe at all...But for some reasom some part of me pleads that it doesn't have to be an all or nothing like that...But yet mabey it does...

Edited March 9, 2013 by Guest

[Guest]

I will even take it a step further and say I've experienced miracles and believe God has reached out and shown me He's real...I've experienced that love and from how it happened to what was happening in my life at the time these things happened I attribute it to the Christian God...So I guess I have to do as Era Might said and just believe simply...As tough as that is to do...

Edited March 9, 2013 by Guest

[Evangetholic]

You never have to go it alone with scripture. You have, if you  are in a state of grace, the Holy Spirit living in your soul and sanctifying grace "welling up unto eternal life." You have access to the God who created the Universe and to the Human Authors of the various books as well. And you have the Magisterium of the Church.

 

You can get lost in God's imagined unkindness in some sections of the Old Testament (the radical acts needed to get the attention of an entire nation), or you can remember that God doesn't by right owe us anything. We have inherited separation and the inclination to evil from Adam, still He died for us, still He bears with us.

 

You can get lost in Jonah spending three days in whale's belly or you can remember that the primary point of that story is to point to Christ (the Church tends to read Her Book typologically). Jonah had to be battered and cajoled to do God's will, but the Father had with Him another who would come and do His Will without having to be battered. Jonah's three days in the whale are metaphor for our Lord's three days in the tomb. The awful gentile prophet, compared to the Hebrew  Lord who would willingly lay down His life to save even gentiles.

 

You can get lost in whether there were 5000 people or 80. Or you can remember that God has the power and the desire to feed His people. :)

 

You can be swayed by atheists, modernists, and people who "have made a shipwreck of their faith." Or you can remember that you are a foot soldier engaged in war to save your eternal soul and those of others, that you have real enemy, who is the Father of Lies, who tempted Christ Himself, and who'd love nothing more than to receive your soul at your death and to sideline you in the war for men's souls right now.

 

Either way, I'll pray for you DB.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I hereby invoke modern biblical scholarship. Not to be Captain Obvious, but the bible is a collection of writings reflecting different times, cultures, and literary genres. Naive literalism is not a requirement of Catholic orthodoxy, and in fact there are Church documents that encourage biblical criticism. It's certainly possible to acknowledge that some stories are probably not historically accurate (e.g., Bel and the Dragon) without being condemned to the infamy of heresy. You aren't required to believe things that are unreasonable. The idea is that the fundamental claims of Christianity are reasonable and defensible. My understanding is that the Catholic Church rejects fideism (e.g., Fides et Ratio, the Catechism).

[Guest]

I agree Ld...Well said brother...Modern biblical scholarishp is going to be so important in the nxt 20 to 30 years...With the internent a person of faith can turn into an atheist/agnostic overnight...Not that there is anything wrong with atheist/agnostics...The ones I met are good people and a ton smarter then me...Although faith in the Creator is such a real and great thing and something people shouldn't miss out on...

[Socrates]

Socrates Josephus words were altered...That's if he wrote about Jesus at all...That's a known fact...Josephus and Philo wrote about what was going on at the time...If a mircale like this happened it would of got around...Why wouldn't it be included in their writings? That's a big deal. Just like its a big deal when Jesus comes back to life and brings saints with Him and thousands of people are said to see them. Why wouldn't that be recorded in these mens writing ? I'm at a point where I'm confused. A lot of the stuff in the old testement turns out not to be true right ? Such as Jonas in a whale etc etc. So is it a far stretch to think some of these stories about Christ might not be what really happened ? There has to be a logical reason Jesus seems not to be recorded in history outside of the gospel. If all these miracles occured it almost seems He would have to be wrote about outside of the gospels. I still identify as a catholic christian and I believe Christ was raised from the dead. Although I also wonder if things were done on a much smaller scale then how the Gospels present them to have happened.

 

The part about Josephus's words being altered is a theory, rather than known fact, but is largely beside the point. . . .

 

 

You have to keep in mind that the events recorded in the Gospels took place in the first century - long before there was any internet, television, radio, telegraphs, newspapers, or printing press - and largely took place in comparatively out-of-the-way parts of the world.  There was no press corps following around Jesus with microphones and cameras to immediately broadcast news of His deeds to Rome and the rest of the world.  

 

In ancient times, news spread mostly by word-of-mouth, and had to be painstakingly written down on papyrus, and copied word-for-word by hand for copies to be spread to others. By standards of ancient history the four Gospels were practically newsflashes - most historical writings at the time were written down long after the events took place.  The Gospel was spread by orally before the four Gospels were written down, and Matthew and John were eyewitness, while Mark and Luke got their information from eyewitnesses whom they were close to.

 

The only people to witness the miraculous feeding of the five thousand were those present at the event - and it likely was a big event for those witnesses, many of whom no doubt became Christians, and spread their faith with others.  The Christian Faith did not grow so quickly in its early years for no reason.  Those following Jesus who witnessed the miracle were probably largely already His followers to some extent, and already regarded Him at least as a great and holy prophet, and this miracle no doubt confirmed their belief in Jesus's holiness.  

The news of this and other of  Christ's miracles were spread enthusiastically by His followers before being put down in writing in the four Gospels.

 

 

If, as you say, you believe in Christ's glorious Resurrection from the dead, and believe in His divinity, there is absolutely no reason not to believe in the reality of His lesser miracles.  These miracles were written down in History - in the Gospels.  Josephus and Pliny were not witnesses to these events.

 

The Church does in fact teach that the events of Christ's life recorded in the Gospel are historically factual, and not mere parables or fables.

Whether you choose to believe is another matter - it's easy enough to claim that the Gospels are fictional fabrications - as most unbelievers regard them, but if that was the truth, we must conclude that an awful people were eager to to lose everything - even their own lives - in order to perpetuate a fraud.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Socrates

[Socrates]

The Church does in fact teach that the events of Christ's life recorded in the Gospel are historically factual, and not mere parables or fables.

Whether you choose to believe is another matter - it's easy enough to claim that the Gospels are fictional fabrications - as most unbelievers regard them, but if that was the truth, we must conclude that an awful people were eager to to lose everything - even their own lives - in order to perpetuate a fraud.

 

Last line should read, "but if that was the truth, we must conclude that an awful lot of people were eager to to lose everything - even their own lives - in order to perpetuate a fraud."

[Guest]

Socrates I need to have a beer with you...Or a few...

[reyb]

The part about Josephus's words being altered is a theory, rather than known fact, but is largely beside the point. . . .

 

 

You have to keep in mind that the events recorded in the Gospels took place in the first century - long before there was any internet, television, radio, telegraphs, newspapers, or printing press - and largely took place in comparatively out-of-the-way parts of the world.  There was no press corps following around Jesus with microphones and cameras to immediately broadcast news of His deeds to Rome and the rest of the world.  

 

In ancient times, news spread mostly by word-of-mouth, and had to be painstakingly written down on papyrus, and copied word-for-word by hand for copies to be spread to others. By standards of ancient history the four Gospels were practically newsflashes - most historical writings at the time were written down long after the events took place.  The Gospel was spread by orally before the four Gospels were written down, and Matthew and John were eyewitness, while Mark and Luke got their information from eyewitnesses whom they were close to.

 

The only people to witness the miraculous feeding of the five thousand were those present at the event - and it likely was a big event for those witnesses, many of whom no doubt became Christians, and spread their faith with others.  The Christian Faith did not grow so quickly in its early years for no reason.  Those following Jesus who witnessed the miracle were probably largely already His followers to some extent, and already regarded Him at least as a great and holy prophet, and this miracle no doubt confirmed their belief in Jesus's holiness.  

The news of this and other of  Christ's miracles were spread enthusiastically by His followers before being put down in writing in the four Gospels.

 

 

If, as you say, you believe in Christ's glorious Resurrection from the dead, and believe in His divinity, there is absolutely no reason not to believe in the reality of His lesser miracles.  These miracles were written down in History - in the Gospels.  Josephus and Pliny were not witnesses to these events.

 

The Church does in fact teach that the events of Christ's life recorded in the Gospel are historically factual, and not mere parables or fables.

Whether you choose to believe is another matter - it's easy enough to claim that the Gospels are fictional fabrications - as most unbelievers regard them, but if that was the truth, we must conclude that an awful people were eager to to lose everything - even their own lives - in order to perpetuate a fraud.

 

It is written in Matt 27:51-53

 

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

If Catholic claim is true about ‘historicity’ of these events, do you really think Josephus -  if it is true that he wrote about Jesus-  will ever, ever, ever missed this ‘resurrection of saints’ scandal? Cannot you imagine the ‘scandal’ it will bring to them?  Dead people (not one but many people) risen from cemetery!  What kind of ‘present’ historian or non-historian will ever miss this event? Are you saying all of them never wrote about this event?

 

And another thing, why all your early fathers never mention about this ‘resurrection of saints’ during their discussion with these heretics (since this heretics do not accept their ‘human’ Jesus). If I were in Ignatius shoes they will surely be ashamed of me even without too much discussion. I will simply hold their hands and then, we will go to Jerusalem and then, I will let them discuss and debate with these ‘resurrected saints’ themselves. Let us see who will win.

 

Anyway, you are correct. If anyone can accept this ‘resurrection of saints’ as historical event even without any recorded physical evidences then, you can really accept anything even lies.

Edited March 11, 2013 by reyb

[Laudate_Dominum]

I want to have some beers with Socrates too.

[reyb]

I want to have some beers with Socrates too.

I am willing to come. If Socrates will invite me.

[krissylou]

So you believe Jonas was in a whale ? You believe God ordered women and children to be killed and raped ? I'm sorry but I don't. Although I guess I can see how those stories tied in with the new testement can come together in some crazy way to form a more postive then negative effect in the end....I think.

 

Father Barron has some interesting htings to say on this score.  He'll interpret quite a bit metaphorically.

 

So I think you're still within the family.

[krissylou]

Google one of Father Barron's discussions on "The Youtube Heresies" and look for his section on fundamentalistic Biblical interpretation.

[Guest]

Hey Krissy...Big fan of Father...I will check it out...Thank you...Godbless :)