Hli Priest Speaks Out On Denying Holy Communion

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Anna' date='May 28 2004, 02:09 AM'] Got it!

Rosa L. DeLauro
Ed Pastor
James P. McGovern
Ciro D. Rodriguez
Nick Lampson
Raul M. Grijalva
James P. Moran
Silvestre Reyes
Linda T. Sanchez
Bill Pascrell, Jr.
Bart Stupak
Michael E. Capuano
Betty McCollum
Anna G. Eshoo
Carolyn McCarthy
John D. Dingell
Peter A DeFazio
Stephen F. Lynch
Edward J. Markey
Jose E. Serrano
Madeleine Z. Bordallo
Tim Ryan
Lane Evans
Hilda L. Solis
Michael F. Doyle
John B. Larson
Maurice D. Hinchey
Loretta Sanchez
Mike Thompson
Robert A. Brady
Diane E. Watson
Jim Langevin
Joe Baca
Charles A. Gonzalez
Nydia M. Velazquez
Martin T. Meehan
William Lacy Clay
Frank Pallone, Jr.
George Miller
Karen McCarthy
Dennis A. Cardoza
Xavier Becerra
Grace F. Napolitano
William D. Delahunt
James L. Oberstar
Luis V. Gutierrez
Dennis J. Kucinich
Nancy Pelosi

To view the letter, click [url="http://britius.stblogs.org/archives/015378.html"]HERE[/url] :angry:

There is also the opportunity to leave your personal comments at the end. [/quote]
Now their names are all on one list. All the easier to excommunicate them.

[Anna]

Tru Dat!!!

I think if you visit that website, you can click on those names and email those "Catholic" Congressmen!

They need to hear from us.
We need to defend Our Mother, the Church, from those who insult and mock her.
And a good many do so from [i]within.[/i]

Ready, set, go....Let 'em have it! :punch: :knockout: :pebcam: :squash:

[CreepyCrawler]

that makes me so mad. you have to be catholic to receive communion, right? but being catholic requires certain things. i could call myself white but it wouldn't be simply because i called myself that. it would requite that i had white skin. to be catholic means you believe and follow church teachings. it's so simple. why can't politicians figure it out? the bishops aren't politicizing the eucharist, they're just being vocal about what it means to be catholic. politicians are so dense.

i love the bishop who wrote that response. he's my hero. short, sweet, and to the point. yeah for him!

[_bc]

The way I understand this letter, the legislators are not demanding for themselves the right to receive the Eucharist while in sin. Rather, they are arguing to the bishops that withholding the Eucharist from certain politicians is not likely to further Catholic policies and legislation. From what I can tell, they are mainly discussing political strategy.

In addition, some of them seem to feel that certain individuals within the Church are using it for political purposes that are not those of the Church itself, as seen from this quote in the MSNBC article:

[quote]One of the signers [b]with a solidly antiabortion voting record[/b], Rep. Bart Stupak (Mich.), said in an interview that bishops "are making these statements thinking they're undermining the candidacy of John Kerry, when what they're really undermining is the Catholic church."

Stupak added that he has been surprised by the partisanship of some bishops.

"I've had some threaten not to give Communion to me, even though they don't know my position, just because I'm a Democrat," he said. "I've had cardinals refuse to shake my hand because I'm a Democrat, and then somebody whispers to them that, 'No, no, he's a good guy.' " [/quote]

The name of the Church, and positions within it, have before been misused for political ends by individuals. Certainly, if these people want to be good Catholics, they are required to discuss their suspicions of such misuse with the people in question.


Ps. That is not to say that I believe the Bishops are misusing their positions, just that if what the politicians wrote in the letter are their sincere beliefs, I can't see that they were wrong to send the letter.

Edited June 5, 2004 by _bc

[Dave]

[quote name='_bc' date='Jun 5 2004, 04:21 PM'] The way I understand this letter, the legislators are not demanding for themselves the right to receive the Eucharist while in sin. Rather, they are arguing to the bishops that withholding the Eucharist from certain politicians is not likely to further Catholic policies and legislation. From what I can tell, they are mainly discussing political strategy.

In addition, some of them seem to feel that certain individuals within the Church are using it for political purposes that are not those of the Church itself, as seen from this quote in the MSNBC article:



The name of the Church, and positions within it, have before been misused for political ends by individuals. Certainly, if these people want to be good Catholics, they are required to discuss their suspicions of such misuse with the people in question.


Ps. That is not to say that I believe the Bishops are misusing their positions, just that if what the politicians wrote in the letter are their sincere beliefs, I can't see that they were wrong to send the letter. [/quote]
I agree, _bc. I bet none of these politicians care about sin or hell in the least. Heck, how many of them even believe in sin or hell, I wonder?

[VeraMaria]

[quote name='Anna' date='May 27 2004, 09:49 AM'] [url="http://www.hli.org/pres_statement_bishops.html"]http://www.hli.org/pres_statement_bishops.html[/url] [/quote]
Wow. Awesome to read something like that for a change...

[MC Just]

ok im gonna send a email to each and everyone of them, just to let them know, that they have no power or authority to tell the Bishops what to do. This makes me very mad.

[HomeTeamFamily]

[quote] Now their names are all on one list. All the easier to excommunicate them.[/quote]

that just made my night

[MC Just]

ok,heres my letter, tell me what yall think.


Dear
Dissenting so called “Catholic” Politicians, excuse my sarcasm but a letter was recently written and sent to the Us Catholic Bishops, in regards to denying Holy Communion to pro-abortion politicians. First off I would like to remind you of the position(s) you are in and the position(s) the Catholic bishops are in. The Catholic Church has always been Pro-life and always will be. There is no way your going to change that. The bishops speak with a much higher authority than anyone of you. It is their job to tell us what’s wrong and sinful and what’s not wrong and sinful. To receive the one (Christ) who is Life, in a state of “Mortal Sin” is sacrilege, not only is that wrong, but even the scriptures warn us of what happens when you receive un-worthily. The Church teaches abortion is a horrible sin and abomination, if the Church teaches that it is a mortal sin to be pro-abortion or pro-death, then it is a mortal sin, there is nothing you can do to change that. We all have our own choices, yes we’ve heard it a million times, but when you are Catholic, you have one set of hands and that’s for the Church, you cannot be Pro-Abortion and Catholic at the same time, that hypocrisy, they do not fit together. There will be no great harm brought to the Church if they deny communion to pro-abortion politicians. But great harm will be brought to the souls who receive the Precious body of Christ in mortal sin. Do not be more American than Catholic, do not expect the Catholic Church to change it’s teachings to suit your fancies. The Scriptures tell us to “Obey our Leaders, that they keep watch over us” the scriptures tell us this:
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
For any one who eats and drinks, not discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. --1 Corinthians 11:27-29
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons.
You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?
-- 1 Corinthians 10:21-22
The bishop’s can and will deny communion to pro-abortion politicians, whether you all think it’s wrong or not.

God Bless,
A concerned Faithful lay person of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

[MC Just]

although that Priest's, letter was pretty dope.

[qfnol31]

[quote]...'Undermining the church'
The letter questioned how the bishops could limit the denial of Communion to abortion, noting that Pope John Paul II and many U.S. bishops have condemned the death penalty...[/quote]

I don't find this part very accurate. (msnbc's thing)

[MC Just]

i really need some feedback on my later, what do ya'll think.

[IcePrincessKRS]

BUMP (sounds pretty good to me )

Jake, Ironmonk, you guys seem to be the expert letter-writers around here. Any advice/pointers for MCJust before he sends it?

[Guest JeffCR07]

Hey everyone, just a thought here. I'm as angry as the rest of you about this whole thing. Its terribly sad that people reject the Church's teachings, convince themselves that they are not in mortal sin, when they know full well the teaching and claim to be "formed," and, most of all, it is depressingly sad that these people feel they have a "right" to receive with blemishes upon their soul.

However, I think we must take a step back for a second. The letter was amazing until the last lines..."Get the Hell Out" rang in my ears like a warped and blackened Church Bell. And, sad to say it, much of what I have read on this postboard so far has appeared to flirt dangerously close to a lack of charity.

Righteous Indignation is good, as Christ showed us in the Temple and the Church has taught throughout history, but we should never let anger get the best of us. No bishop or priest will ever allow a man or women who they KNOW TO BE IN MORTAL SIN to receive Christ into their body, just as Christ would not allow the temple to be defiled. Sarcasm, however, will not turn into flesh a heart of stone.

These men and woman cannot receive the blessed sacrament. This is not an option. We cannot allow ourselves to be led into anger or wrath. This too, is not an option.

We must speak with Charity, but with the firm Charity of Truth.3

[Jake Huether]

MC Just,

The letter was good. May I suggest letting it sit for a few days, then re-read it, and then send it. Sometimes I'll write something very heartfelt and accurate, but upon reflection later I see things that I might have written differently. Our goal is to inform them, not necessarily to slam dunk them. The old saying "you catch more bees with honey" is good advice. If it is well written, it will indeed strike a cord with these peeps. But it won't shut them down. The Holy Spirit will convict them. But if it is written such that it simply aggrivates them, then you've not only lost the battle, but you might have also done more damage.

When you write, think about the end result. Don't always write simply to defend the Church. The defense of the Church shouldn't be the end of the letter. The intent to defend the Church is good, but the end result should always be an attempt to bring the soul back to God and His Church.

That's my advice anyway.

I haven't yet read the letter these guys wrote, so I've not yet been inspired to write my own rep. But if I do, I'll post the letter too.

God bless and continue the fight for truth.

[MC Just]

Cool! thanks.

[Jake Huether]

It might do good to analyze the letter, and see where these Political figures are missing the mark. With that info, we might write them to show them where they have missunderstood something.




[quote]We the undersigned, are Catholic Members of Congress who are increasingly concerned about statements made recently by some members of the Catholic hierarchy indicating that the sacrament of communion should be withheld from certain Catholic legislators because of their votes on public issues. The focus has been on legislators' pro-choice position on abortion but this raises much broader issues that concern all of us.[/quote]

Not much to comment on there.


[quote]We firmly believe that it would be wrong for a bishop to deny the sacrament of holy communion to an individal on the basis of a voting record. [/quote]


The Bishops are not going to deny the Sacrament of Holy Communion from "an individual on the basis of a voting record", as it would be darn near impossible for the Church to even compile the billions of votes cast by individuals in order to find out who's voting pro-abortion. The Bishops wish to deny the Sacrament to PUBLIC FIGURES who PUBLICALLY support abortion. If the Bishops can positivly identify a person who is objectively and subjectively sinning Mortally in public, then it is their duty to withhold Communion from them, in an effort not to defend the Church, but to save the person's soul from incurring greater mortal sin.

[quote]We believe that such an action would be counter-productive and would bring great harm to the Church.[/quote]

Christ brought great harm to Himself to save us all. The Bishops, acting on behalf of the Church, MUST risk "great harm to the Church" (and, by the way, Christ promised that "great harm" would never overcome the Church) in order to save souls.

[quote]Our concerns about the apparent threat of withholding a sacrament in order to influence how a legislator acts go beyond the issue of pro-choice or pro-life, as indicated by the fact that some of the undersigned have "pro-life" voting records. [/quote]


Again, they miss the mark. Communion is not withheald in order to influence how a legislator acts. Communion is withheld to preserve the soul of the individual at the present. It isn't an act done to cause a future event. It is an act done to prevent a sin.

[quote]While some of us differ on this issue, each and every one of us is committed to the basic principles that are at the heart of Catholic social justice - helping the poor and underprivileged, protecting the most vulnerable among us, and insuring that all Americans of every faith are given meaningful opportunities to share in the blessings of this great country.[/quote]

They are committed to the "basic principles...of Catholic social justice"? Oh... Okay, then I guess they can recieve Jesus in the Eucharist! LOL. There are no "basic principles" of Catholicism. It's a whole, or it's protestant. If they want to pick, then maybe they should join the closest Protestant denom and recieve the symbole of Christ, not Christ himself. Why would they wish to recieve "COMMUNION", when they themselves admit that they "DIFFER" on this issue. If they are different, then they are not in communion. It's one or the other.



[quote]We also emphasize that legislators viewed as "pro-choice" can and do take steps every day in their Congressional lives to advance respect for life and respect for the dignity of every human being. In fact, many of us became members of Congress to do just that. [/quote]


This has got to be the greatest lie there is. Oh, we promote the choice to murder innocent babies, but we do all we can to advance respect for life and dahdahdah. Blah. Blatant hypocrisy!


[quote]That commitment involves different things for different legislators but includes pushing for real health care reform, reluctance before war and promoting alternatives to abortion, such as adoption. [/quote]

This is another lie. Name me a polititian who is pro-choice, who has come up with any form of legislation (even at it's very early stages) that would promote an alternative to abortion. There is really no such thing as pro-choice, because they don't advocate a choice, they represent only the choice to murder.


[quote]Some of those who are viewed as pro-choice have voiced opposition to capital punishment, and are active on other issues affecting life, including hunger relief and human rights. [/quote]

Which is just plain silly. How can one respect the life of a murderer, and yet advocate the choice to murder an innocent baby? It has nothing to do with sesitivity and charity and love. It's a big political game to get the most votes! And they should know that it IS okay to be Catholic and promote capital punishment for the right reasons. It is not, however, an option to be Catholic and pro-"choice".





[quote]At the same time, we live in a nation of laws and the Supreme Court has declared that our Constitution provides women with a right to an abortion. [/quote]


Right, the Supreme Court has declared... But what does the Constitution really say? Does it say that women have the right to kill their children. No? The Supreme Court, unfortunatly, has missinterpreted the Constitution, along with their misinformation on the reality of human life and it's beginning. The Supreme Court has grievously errored. Because Life, Liberty, etc. are granted to ALL. And "all" included unborn humans as well. Women have rights! I agree. But where's the definition of "women" and show me where this shouldn't include the unborn women as well.



[quote]Members who vote for legislation consistent with that mandate are not acting contrary to our positions as faithful members of the Catholic Church. [/quote]


Yes they are.


[quote]We also do not believe that it is the obligation of legislators to prohibit all conduct which we may, as a matter of personal morality, believe is wrong. [/quote]


So, the believe in relativism? What's wrong for them, really isn't wrong wrong. It's more just like a preference. They don't prefer it, but it isn't "bad". How can they believe something is wrong, and yet advise others to do it. That's just bad politics then if you ask me.


[quote]Likewise, as Catholics, we do not believe it is our role to legislate the teachings of the Catholic Church. [/quote]


So in otherwords, they don't believe the Church is right?? Are the teachings meant for everyone? Or are they only meant for those who choose them? It just doesn't make sense. Do they believe the Teachings or not?



[quote]For any of us to be singled out by any bishop by the refusal of communion or other public criticism because we vote in what we believe are the requirements of the United States Constitution and laws of our country, which we are sworn to uphold.is deeply hurtful.  [/quote]


Give me a break. It isn't "public criticism". Stop thinking of yourself for once. The Church is doing it for YOUR own good. Not hers. She's keeping you from greater sin.






[quote]We would remind those who would deny us participation in the sacrament of the Eucharist that we are sworn to represent all Americans, not just Catholics. [/quote]


Oh, and so if ALL Americans believed that it's okay to murder, should you support that too? Should ALL Americans believe that stealing is okay, should you support that? Don't lie to yourself.


[quote]Church leaders must recognize, as did the great Catholic theologian and scholar John Courtney Murray, that in public life distinctions must be made between public and private morality. Because we represent all of our constituents we must, at times, separate our public actions from our personal beliefs.[/quote]


Hogwash. As the great philosopher Jerry Maguire once said, "show me the money". That's all it's about. They want to votes. They want to crowd.


[quote]As the bishops of the United States recently emphasized in the publication Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to Political Responsibility, "In the Catholic tradition, responsible citizenship. Is a virtue; participation in the political process is a moral obligation." As legislators chosen by the peoplewe represent, we take that moral obligation seriously. This means that we are called to represent the views of our constituents even when those views may conflict with some of our personal views.[/quote]


We're talking about making murder legal. Umm. Do Americans know what's best for them??

[quote]If Catholic legislators are scorned and held out for ridicule by Church leaders on the basis of a single issue, the Church will lose strong advocates on a wide range of issues that relate to the core of important Ca1holic social teaching. [/quote]

Wait a second here. When has the Church "held out from ridicule" any politition? And it sound here like their threatening the Church? LOL. Oooooh, if you don't stop, you're going to loos advocates. LOL. The Church doesn't need the likes of advocates that only advocate part of the Teachings anyway.



[quote]Moreover, criticism of us on a matter that is essentially one of personal morality will deter other Catholics from entering politics, and in the long run the Church will suffer. [/quote]


"Essentially one of personal morality" eh? Oh wise one, define what "personal morality" means? It's only moral for some and not for others. Come on...



[quote]For many years Catholics were denied public office by voters who feared that they would take direction from the Pope. Opponents to John F. Kennedy expressed the. view that, if elected, his first act would be to build a tunnel from the White House to Rome. While that type of paranoid anti-Catholicism seems to be a thing of the past, attempts by Church leaders today to influence votes by the threat of withholding a sacrament will revive latent anti-Catholic prejudice, which so many of us have worked so hard to overcome.[/quote]

It isn't a matter of influenceing votes. It's a matter of saving YOUR buttox.



[quote]Nor do we see how the bishops could 1imit this punishment to the pro-choice issue alone, and we are troubled by the possible consequences of proceeding down this road. [/quote]

Well trouble yourself no more. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit (who you should believe in). So, no matter what she descides, it will be good.




[quote]Both the Holy Father and members of the U.S. hierarchy have condemned the death penalty, as well as the war in Iraq. [/quote]


No they haven't. And even if they did, this is not a Teaching of the Church. Look it up in the Catechism. Abortion is evil. Death penalty is permissible in certain circumstances. War too.


[quote]Will an individual bishop decide to deny communion to a legislator -Republican or Democrat - who has voted in favor of the death penalty? Will another bishop decide to communion to a legislator who authorized the war in Iraq? [/quote]


No because this is a subjective matter. War and the death penalty are not objective sins. Murder is.


[quote]Such conduct would foster division within the Church as well as division between the hierarchy and the laity. [/quote]

For sure it would. But that conduct will not happen, because, like I said, war and the death penalty are not objective sins.


[quote]And allowing a bishop to take actions that lead to involvement in partisan politics wou1d be detrimental to the Church. As the USCCB recognizes in Faithful Citizenship. “The Catholic community is large and diverse. We are Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.” Unfortunately, tbe threats of some bishops to withhold communion from "pro-choice legislators has the effect of miring the Church in partisan politics and allowing the Church to be used for partisan purposes.[/quote]


It doesn't matter what the USCCB or anyone thinks. Recieving Jesus in the Eucharist in mortal sin is itself a mortal sin. The Church is obliged to rescue us from sin, when she can. And to deny the Eucharist to one who is unworthy, is one such obligation. She, obviously cannot know who among us is in sin, but she can know, when that individual publicly manifests their sin.


[quote]
All of us firmly believe that we can be good Congresspersons and good Catholics and we respectfully submit that, while sometimes difficult, each of us has the responsibility and the right to balance publiv morality with private morality without pressure from certain bishops. [/quote]


Morality is morality. There is no such thing as public and private morality. That's a silly made up thing. How can what is moral for one person be immoral for another? Is God a God of lies?


[quote]While we do not question the authority of the bishops, we respectfully submit that each of us is in the best position to know the state of our soul and our relationship to God and our Church. Therefore, each of God's children should be the final judge as to whether it is appropriate for them to receive the sacrament of communion.[/quote]

The Church could only hope that we would be such good stuwards of the Temples of the Holy Spirit that we are. But when we publically manifest our sin, there is no doubt that you are unworthy to recieve God in Communion.

[quote]We raise these issues, not just to address the immediate reports about the pro-choice issue, but to underscore importance of Catholic teachings to all of us. It is reflected in the broad range of issues where we have so much affinity with the Church. The Church has played a central role in all of our lives and instilled in us a value system that drives us to fight for a. better life for all Americans. [/quote]


Blatant lie. They promote the death of millions of Americans yearly, and then say that this derived from a value system which the Church gave them. LOL.



[quote]We value the Church, its teachings and are proud to be Catholics.[/quote]

But unfortunatly, in supporting abortion, they are not really Catholics (i.e. Universal). If you don't support what the Church teaches, then you are not a Catholic, or at the very least a poor Catholic.

[quote]We thank you for attention to this important issue. When your schedule permits, representatives of our group would appreciate the opportunity of meeting with you and if, you feel it appropriate, other members of your task force, so that we may begin a dialogue on these issues which are so important to the Church and to us. In the meantime, feel free to share this letter with your fellow bishops.[/quote]

Nuff said.

I'm going to write my rep...

Pray for them and pray for me.

[Jake Huether]

Grrrr. I'll have to write 12 peeps. Is it surprising that 12 of these people are from California?

[Dave]

Great work, MC Just! And Jake, God bless your letter-writing efforts too!

[IcePrincessKRS]

I knew you'd come through for us Jake! Thanks!