Voting Democrat: Sinful?

[IXpenguin21]

i'm under the impression that if you hear of someone planning to have an abortion, and you don't do everything you can to stop them, it's a sin.

because of a situation like this, if you vote for someone who is in favor of abortions and plans to make it easier for women to have abortions, are you sinning by voting for someone w/ that intention?

[IcePrincessKRS]

I think the answer would be yes, some would argue that if the reasons for not voting for the other candidate are serious enough then culpability would be lessened, but in either case voting for a pro-abortion candidate would be at least venial, and more than likely mortally sinful.

[jasJis]

Voting Democratic is not sinful.

Voting for Pro-Abortionists is.

If you like some of what the Democratic party stands for (excluding Abortion of course) then you should become active and support what you agree with, but become even more active to move the Democratic party away from being Pro-Abortion.

How you may ask? Pay attention and vote. Do you know of a Democratic politician or canidate that is anti-abortion? Share that with friends. Send a letter of support. Send them money. Volunteer to help with the campain. Get friends to send letters of support. Don't you think politicians know which side of their bread is buttered? Don't you think the local Dem Party officials would notice the support an anti-abortion candidate gets? It would become politically advantageous to move away from pro-abortion if the anti-abortion candidate would get elected instead.

Edited May 28, 2004 by jasJis

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

One problem with the Democratic party is that now the party has no identity. For the longest time, the Democrats and Republicans agreed a lot on many of the issues, and in fact each party has supported many stances, sometimes contrary to each other, on several issues over the course of its history.

The problem is now that the Democratic party has decided to turn elsewhere to find voter support. Issues like civil rights and education are no longer as relevant to gaining votes; both parties support those issues. While building up the moral standing of our country in the first half of the 20th century, the democratic party has been tearing it down ever since the 1970's. They go after whatever issues they think will get them votes. You'll hear many democrats say, "I don't agree with abortion, but I'm not going to enforce that on other people." If you don't want to enforce things on people, making legislation may not be the career for you. Try TV/VCR repair or even buisness management or accounting.

my $0.02

[IcePrincessKRS]

Yeah, what jasJis said! Thats what I was getting at. I didn't mean to imply that voting Democrat is a sin, but that voting for a pro-abortion candidate no matter what party he belongs to is sinful to some degree. (Cut me some slack, I'd spent all day in hospital waiting rooms and was posting at 3 am. )

[Dave]

If there was a Democratic pro-life candidate and a Republican pro-abortion candidate, it would only be right to vote for the Democrat.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='Dave' date='May 28 2004, 11:31 AM'] If there was a Democratic pro-life candidate and a Republican pro-abortion candidate, it would only be right to vote for the Democrat. [/quote]
Exactly. And abortion, homosexual marriage, and euthanasia cannot be secondary to economic policy. You may disagree with how one party wants to handle the economy, but the majority of both parties want to do the best thing to help the poor and serve the american people. You may disagree with them on how, but ultimately, you want the same end. For abortion, homosexual marriage, and euthanasia, a responsible catholic doesn't want any of these to happen. Killing babies is killing babies is killing babies. There's no getting around that.

Example:

A republican candidate might say he wants to lower taxes so people will start up companies and these people will hire people to work for them. This adds jobs to the market which reduces the unemployment rate and poverty rate.

A democratic candidate might say he wants to increase taxes to increase federal spending on government programs. Many of these programs will require new jobs, thus decreasing the unemployment rate and poverty rate. People who still live below the poverty line will be given a little bit of monetary support to help make ends meet.

Both of these viewpoints are valid in the sense that they both ultimately have decreasing poverty as their goal. You may be swayed one way or another, but both sides want the same end while the means are different. The means also are not inherintly sinful, i.e., you could vote for either one of these candidates (assuming this is the only issue) and you would not be committing a sin. Abortion is inherintly gravely sinful and therefore warrants more concern as a voter.

[Ash Wednesday]

The only time it might be permissable to vote for a pro-choice candidate is if BOTH are pro-choice -- you would vote for the lesser evil (for example, one who opposes abortion after the first trimester compared to one who doesn't oppose abortion in any circumstance). Though I've read in some instances of voting Catholics opting not to vote in some races (though voting in others) out of a conscientious objection of sorts.

And now we have gay marriage.... yet another issue thrown into the mix that we have to deal with.

*sigh*

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='May 28 2004, 12:50 PM'] Though I've read in some instances of voting Catholics opting not to vote in some races (though voting in others) out of a conscientious objection of sorts. [/quote]
The only problem with not voting is that your lack of a vote might allow the greater of two evils to win the election. If your ballot has a 'none of the above' option, though, that would be a good choice if the candidate has to get a majority and not just a plurality to win.

You can always vote for a 3rd party candidate, as long as he is pro-life. If every Catholic was faithful to the church and voted, we could have quite an impact on the country, even in areas where the Catholic population is small. Then again, if every Catholic was faithful to the Church, the world would be a much better place and there would be many more Catholics.

[IXpenguin21]

[quote name='Dave' date='May 28 2004, 12:31 PM'] If there was a Democratic pro-life candidate and a Republican pro-abortion candidate, it would only be right to vote for the Democrat. [/quote]
yeah... i understand...

i was really just thinking about this upcomming presidential election

[toledo_jesus]

I think that it's true you have to look at what the candidate stands for. If the Democrat is pro-abortion, then you really can't vote for them in good conscience. I myself believe that in the instance of both candidates being pro-choice I would forsake my right to vote. I'd rather be a good Catholic than a good American. It's hard to be both nowadays, I think. That didn't sound as bad to anybody else as it does to me, right?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='May 30 2004, 01:29 AM'] I think that it's true you have to look at what the candidate stands for. If the Democrat is pro-abortion, then you really can't vote for them in good conscience. I myself believe that in the instance of both candidates being pro-choice I would forsake my right to vote. I'd rather be a good Catholic than a good American. It's hard to be both nowadays, I think. That didn't sound as bad to anybody else as it does to me, right? [/quote]
Sounds right to me.

[PedroX]

Ash Wednesday,

You can never willfully choose an evil. So, we can never vote for a pro-abortion canidate. You can not choose evil and say "Well, I hope this works out better." God will provide for us, and often it is a matter of simply looking deeper at the situation.

peace...

[Chrysologus]

Can anyone provide me with quotation from a magisterial document which says that voting for pro-choice candidates for reasons [i]other [/i]than abortion is wrong?

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote]Ash Wednesday,
You can never willfully choose an evil. So, we can never vote for a pro-abortion canidate. You can not choose evil and say "Well, I hope this works out better." God will provide for us, and often it is a matter of simply looking deeper at the situation.
peace...
[/quote]

For the record, I would never willfully choose an evil or vote pro-choice if I could help it.

My statement was made based on the Catechism for voters from EWTN. The document is pretty straightforward that in most cases voting pro abortion is a mortal sin. What I don't understand is balancing a situation where there is an election where all candidates are pro-choice, with what I understand to be an obligation to vote.

I have you stating that you can't vote at all in the event all candidates are pro-choice, and then I have l337 k4th0l1x0r stating that to NOT vote in such a situation allows for the possibility of not stopping the greater of two evils.

So my honest question, who is right, then?

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vote/brief_catechism.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/vote/brief_catechism.htm[/url]

[quote]


8. What if none of the candidates are completely pro-life?

As Pope John Paul II explains in his encyclical, Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life), “…when it is not possible to overturn or completely abrogate a pro-abortion law, an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and morality. This does not in fact represent an illicit cooperation with an unjust law, but rather a legitimate and proper attempt to limit its evil aspects.” Logically, it follows from these words of the Pope that a voter may likewise vote for that candidate who will most likely limit the evils of abortion or any other moral evil at issue.

[b]Except in the case in which a voter is faced with all pro-abortion candidates (in which case, as explained in question 8 above, he or she strives to determine which of them would cause the least damage in this regard)[/b], a candidate that is pro-abortion disqualifies himself from receiving a Catholic’s vote. This is because being pro-abortion cannot simply be placed alongside the candidate's other positions on Medicare and unemployment, for example; and this is because abortion is intrinsically evil and cannot be morally justified for any reason or set of circumstances. To vote for such a candidate even with the knowledge that the candidate is pro-abortion is to become an accomplice in the moral evil of abortion. If the voter also knows this, then the voter sins mortally.
[/quote]

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

I'm stating the whole lesser of two evils in the sense that if we had a really pro-choice candidate who wants to have free abortions for anyone and a candidate who only advocates abortion in the case of emergency, rape, or incest, it would be more acceptable to vote for the latter as it would actually be a step in the right direction from our abortion on demand world to outlawing abortion (except in cases where the double effect occurs, but that's a topic for another day and another thread).

[qfnol31]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Jun 9 2004, 01:36 AM'] I'm stating the whole lesser of two evils in the sense that if we had a really pro-choice candidate who wants to have free abortions for anyone and a candidate who only advocates abortion in the case of emergency, rape, or incest, it would be more acceptable to vote for the latter as it would actually be a step in the right direction from our abortion on demand world to outlawing abortion (except in cases where the double effect occurs, but that's a topic for another day and another thread). [/quote]
I don't think that double effect ever takes place with abortion. I can think of one time (maybe two) where it's okay, but neither are abortion cases, even though they look that way at first.

[Iacobus]

I don't see a true pro life choice for pres this fall. I am not, and never will, vote for Bush. He does lip service to get votes and does little acting. And his campagin promises were not keep.

Note that not voting for Bush doesn't mean I am voting for Kerry.

Chrysologus, I asked my priest about it in confession and he told me it would not be a sin to support the man who best reflects the Church. This year it is a toss up, largy, because neither is real good at it.

And to the pham member who said something about GOP taking on education, do you live with teachers? LOL! Go to a school and ask the teachers opions of NCLB. Lots of goals, lots of bars, nada cash.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Jun 9 2004, 01:51 AM'] I don't see a true pro life choice for pres this fall. I am not, and never will, vote for Bush. He does lip service to get votes and does little acting. And his campagin promises were not keep.

Note that not voting for Bush doesn't mean I am voting for Kerry. [/quote]
Iacobus, what if that vote means Kerry wins?

[Iacobus]

In IL? Bush wrote IL off as a Kerry state. And I cannot vote for Bush in good faith. I don't think I can for Kerry. But I can, and should, vote for the best man on the ticket. If a vote for a better man compered to a lesser evil is bad, I am lost.