Tolerance

[MissyP89]

This is what confuses me. Correct me if I'm wrong (I am about 70% of the time), but doesn't the Church view gay inclinations as a disorder? If it is really a disorder, doesn't that mean that the person can't morally be fired for it? Would a Catholic school also fire those it believes have other mental/sexual disorders? 

 

Being gay is not a disease or a mental problem. But it is a state that a lot of the time can't be changed. You can't really "cure" being gay and the Church isn't asking anyone to force being straight. 

 

There's a difference between having a temptation or inclination to something, and making the decision to act on it.

 

To use Raz's example above, he may want to have sex with his girlfriend -- it's the way he's wired -- but they choose to be chaste.

 

That's a very simplistic explanation, but I wanted to respond quickly.

[CatherineM]

If someone was genetically predisposed to be a alcoholic, they still have a choice to not act on that inclination. If they instead choose to be an active alcoholic, it would be okay to fire them from their job driving the school bus.

[brianthephysicist]

This line of thinking would mean that any teacher who sinned in any way shape or form could be justly fired. We are not called to punish all sinners. We are called to forgive them if at all possible. If you can't find it in your heart to forgive a sinner, then that's between you and the big guy.

 

Raz, I have a question: is there a difference between someone that is honestly trying not to view pornography and masturbate but sometimes fails to do so and someone that pays subscriptions to pornographic magazines and frequently engages in masturbation but simply wants it to appear that they don't?

 

I'm not saying we can't forgive both, just asking for the whole "teach by example" if either is capable of teaching the gospel by their example.

[BG45]

In before it gets moved to Debate Table and I never read it again.

 

Though some of the reaction I've seen expressed here remind me of the disbelief expressed to the author of the gay, Catholic, and doing fine blog post.

 

Actually, the only time I get shock or disgust or disbelief, the only time I've noticed people treating me differently after I tell them, is when I tell someone who supports the gay lifestyle. Celibacy?? You must be some kind of freak.

[Guest Raz]

I'm not aruging the sinfullness of homosexuality, the Church's stance on that is pretty clear. My point is that we should be tolerant of the homosexuals just as we are tolerant of all other sinners. That, above all, is what Jesus asks of us. The diocese demonstrated a lack of compassion and lack of respect for their own teachings, and it left me disappointed.

[GeorgiiMichael]

The Church has canonical punishments for those who refuse to acknowledge their sins in hopes that they will repent and seek forgiveness. 

 

The Church is called to love sinners, but to love a sinner also includes addressing their sin and impressing upon them the necessity of giving up that sin. A man (or woman) struggling with pornography is just that, struggling. It is not something he (or she) is proud of. However, even discreetly living with a sexual partner of the same sex is an outright choice that is clearly sinful. I'm sorry this woman has lost her job, but the school has a right to have a faculty that is faithful to Church teachings.

 

The Church is not called to tolerate sin. Ever. The end. 

[Guest Raz]

If someone was genetically predisposed to be a alcoholic, they still have a choice to not act on that inclination. If they instead choose to be an active alcoholic, it would be okay to fire them from their job driving the school bus.

 

Considering drinking while driving would put people in direct danger, yes it would be more than okay for someone to be fired for doing this. This woman was not putting anyone in danger, and it had been that way for 19 years. The church could have used this situation as an example of how we as Christians can practice tolerance and understanding, instead they chose to use the situation as an example of how we should punish sinners. It is not a good message to send out to the world.

 

Also, I think your understanding of addiction and genetic predisposition must be a bit misinformed. While it's true that we all the freedom of choice, I cannot stress to you enough that it is not as easy as simply choosing not engage in whatever negative activity it might be.

 

"The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."

 

Is this what we should do for the least of our brothers and sisters? Take their jobs away?

 

 

Raz, I have a question: is there a difference between someone that is honestly trying not to view pornography and masturbate but sometimes fails to do so and someone that pays subscriptions to pornographic magazines and frequently engages in masturbation but simply wants it to appear that they don't?

 

I'm not saying we can't forgive both, just asking for the whole "teach by example" if either is capable of teaching the gospel by their example.

 

Yes, there is definitely a difference between those who try not to sin and fail, and those who sin willfully. And as you said, we as humans absolutely can and should forgive both, and we should especially pray for that those who sin willfully will learn the error of their ways.

 

In terms of teach by example, this woman taught at this school for 19 years. She did not teach anything that went against Catholic doctrine. This was a teaching opportunity for the diocese of columbus, and the lesson they chose to teach was one of punishment isntead of forgiveness.

[Guest Raz]

The Church has canonical punishments for those who refuse to acknowledge their sins in hopes that they will repent and seek forgiveness. 

 

The Church is called to love sinners, but to love a sinner also includes addressing their sin and impressing upon them the necessity of giving up that sin. A man (or woman) struggling with pornography is just that, struggling. It is not something he (or she) is proud of. However, even discreetly living with a sexual partner of the same sex is an outright choice that is clearly sinful. I'm sorry this woman has lost her job, but the school has a right to have a faculty that is faithful to Church teachings.

 

The Church is not called to tolerate sin. Ever. The end. 

 

Impress upon them the necessity of giving up that sin, yes. Take away their livelihood in order to do so, no.

[4588686]

It's just the tactlessness of this whole thing. If she was marching in a pride parade then ok. She chose to work in a place that has really awful views of her and the worth of her relationship and so should know to be wary of that fact. But that the information came out because her partner's first name was listed in her mother's obituary? It's just completely heartless. And honestly, the absolute worst person involved her is that terrible, terrible mother who read this in the paper and went squealing off the the school.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

If someone was genetically predisposed to be a alcoholic, they still have a choice to not act on that inclination. If they instead choose to be an active alcoholic, it would be okay to fire them from their job driving the school bus.

Yes, but I believe this analogy is a bit weak. The teacher's position does not require him or her to have sex with the students. His or her sexual preferences wouldn't make a difference. One might argue that a gay teacher would use the classroom to push a gay agenda at a Catholic school... but that's almost as silly as saying that a Muslim teacher would push a Muslim agenda at a Catholic school. 

[GeorgiiMichael]

Excommunication is a worse punishment because it isn't temporal, it's spiritual. Firing someone for embracing sin is a much less harsh punishment.

 

Try harder.

[4588686]

I'm excommunicated. It's disrupted my life much less than my career being destroyed right after my mother dying.

[Chestertonian]

She might have had to sign some sort of a "church teaching" contract when she was hired.

[GeorgiiMichael]

I'm excommunicated. It's disrupted my life much less than my career being destroyed right after my mother dying.

 

Thank you for your input.

[4588686]

Thank you for your input.

You're welcome. If you'd like any more thoughts from somebody with firsthand experience of the Church's 'fraternal correction' just let me know.

[Chestertonian]

To the OP: I hope you're at least equally as outraged about the treatment of gays and women in some sectors of Islam.

[Winchester]

I think it's an unfair leap to assume that every male watches porn. I'm a male and I don't.

 

The underlying point is true though, we all sin in some way some times, but it shouldn't cost us our jobs (well, within reason haha. If you come into work and kill a few people then yeah, I think a firing is in order).

 

He said "every male teacher at that school". Are you a male teacher at that school?

[4588686]

This school is definitely a cut above the Saudi Monarchy. Nobody can take that away from them.

[hotpink]

Lets get a few facts straight.

 

1.  The teacher's career was not "ruined"  she was fired from ONE school.  She did not loose her license to teach.  The school did not publicly condemn her teaching skill.

 

2.  The Catholic Church dosn't go around firing people who have just lost their mother, it was the sad co-incidence that brought this to light.

 

3.  Co-habitation in any forms should be grounds for firing from a Catholic school.  I live in the west and there are plenty of pods of polygamy.  Many of them are amazing people.  However, the Catholic schools don't hire these people.  No one whines about their "rights" to a personal life.

 

 

With that said.  The school should of given her a chance to rectify her living situation before letting her go.  Then again, she should of known she was not living up to the pretty basic standards of the Catholic Church.  To me (I'm not Catholic) co-habitation is the issue, not gay....but everyone pays attention because it's a gay issue.

[Chestertonian]

Thankfully countries like Iran don't have to deal with such issues, because according to ol' Mahmoud, they dont have "homos in Iran."

Edited April 24, 2013 by Chestertonian