Is Nfp For All, Or Only For The Few In Specific Undesirable Circumstan

[jim111]

"The matrimonial contract, which confers on the married couple the right to satisfy the inclination of nature, constitutes them in a state of life, namely, the matrimonial state. Now, on married couples, who make use of the specific act of their state, nature and the Creator impose the function of providing for the preservation of mankind. This is the characteristic service which gives rise to the peculiar value of their state, the bonum prolis. The individual and society, the people and the State, the Church itself, depend for their existence, in the order established by God, on fruitful marriages. Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason, would be a sin against the very nature of married life.
Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called "indications," may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned. If, however, according to a reasonable and equitable judgment, there are no such grave reasons either personal or deriving from exterior circumstances, the will to avoid the fecundity of their union, while continuing to satisfy to tile full their sensuality, can only be the result of a false appreciation of life and of motives foreign to sound ethical principles."

PiusXII, Allocution to Midwives http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P511029.HTM

 

Pius XII is stating that NFP is not somthing we want to have to use, but is an allowable imperfection in the case of grave circumstances. Its like self defense, you never want to have to hurt others, but if one is attacked one may choose to run, but he may also choose to fight back and inflict pain. Just like one must have a just reason to preform the negative act of hurting soemone. One must have a just reason to willfully try to avoid the primary prupose of marriage.

[LouisvilleFan]

When you look at many health, communicative, and spiritual benefits that come from practicing NFP, it almost seems silly and possibly careless not to use it. Of course, I am referring to the practice of NFP in regards to women's health and a couple's family planning, whether choosing to have a child, not to have a child, or being entirely indifferent about it.

 

Thus, I noticed in summarizing Pius XII, you replaced his words, "the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful" with "Natural Family Planning." These are not equivalent. He is only talking about one part of NFP, and it's important to not that the circumstances are not rare in which couples will wisely choose to break out the Barry White only during sterile periods.

[jim111]

When you look at many health, communicative, and spiritual benefits that come from practicing NFP, it almost seems silly and possibly careless not to use it. Of course, I am referring to the practice of NFP in regards to women's health and a couple's family planning, whether choosing to have a child, not to have a child, or being entirely indifferent about it.

Pius the XII is saying one may not make the choice of using natural means to prevent pregency while having relations, unless grave circumstances arise. If there are no  grave circuim stances it is a sin, and benefits your soul in a negaive way.

 

Thus, I noticed in summarizing Pius XII, you replaced his words, "the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful" with "Natural Family Planning." These are not equivalent. He is only talking about one part of NFP, and it's important to not that the circumstances are not rare in which couples will wisely choose to break out the Barry White only during sterile periods.

The pope stated "Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason, would be a sin against the very nature of married life." Below he states conditions that would make it lawful. Since NFP is when one is embraceing the matrimonial state to avoid its primary duty, I can logically substitue the word NFP and have a true statement.

 

 

 

 

[Papist]

NFP is not used as birth control as you imply. Any couple using NFP properly knows that they must have valid reasons for postponing pregnancy. Best way to postpone is to not engage in the marital act. However, if they decide to, they know there is a chance of conception and are open to the life that make come forth.  There is nothing unnatural happening. There is nothing that mandates that a couple must engage only during the high fertile times.

[Gabriela]

Is it wrong for a (perfectly normal) couple who wish to avoid pregnancy for the entirety of their marriage to engage in the marital act only during sterile times? I mean, there is still a possibility of them conceiving. But they are deliberately trying to avoid pregnancy just cuz they don't want kids (not for economic, health, social, etc., reasons).

 

 

[ToJesusMyHeart]

Is it wrong for a (perfectly normal) couple who wish to avoid pregnancy for the entirety of their marriage to engage in the marital act only during sterile times? I mean, there is still a possibility of them conceiving. But they are deliberately trying to avoid pregnancy just cuz they don't want kids (not for economic, health, social, etc., reasons).

Yes, that is wrong.

[Nihil Obstat]

Is it wrong for a (perfectly normal) couple who wish to avoid pregnancy for the entirety of their marriage to engage in the marital act only during sterile times? I mean, there is still a possibility of them conceiving. But they are deliberately trying to avoid pregnancy just cuz they don't want kids (not for economic, health, social, etc., reasons).

Such a marriage would probably be invalid as well, due to a contraceptive intention from the start.

[Papist]

Simply not wanting a child is not being open to life.

[Apotheoun]

As an Eastern Catholic I do not support NFP; instead, I support the Tradition of the marital fast, which is connected to the liturgical cycles of prayer and fasting that forms the basis of the Church's worship.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

As an Eastern Catholic I do not support NFP; instead, I support the Tradition of the marital fast, which is connected to the liturgical cycles of prayer and fasting that forms the basis of the Church's worship.

Can you elaborate? When are the fasting times?

[LouisvilleFan]

Pius the XII is saying one may not make the choice of using natural means to prevent pregency while having relations, unless grave circumstances arise. If there are no  grave circuim stances it is a sin, and benefits your soul in a negaive way.

 

The pope stated "Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason, would be a sin against the very nature of married life." Below he states conditions that would make it lawful. Since NFP is when one is embraceing the matrimonial state to avoid its primary duty, I can logically substitue the word NFP and have a true statement.

 

So what do you call it when a couple is using NFP in order to become pregnant? Or determine the date of conception? What if a single woman or wife wants to know she is healthy? Or is diagnosing/managing a medical condition? These are all uses of NFP that have nothing to do with the specific use that Pius XII is addressing.

 

 

Is it wrong for a (perfectly normal) couple who wish to avoid pregnancy for the entirety of their marriage to engage in the marital act only during sterile times? I mean, there is still a possibility of them conceiving. But they are deliberately trying to avoid pregnancy just cuz they don't want kids (not for economic, health, social, etc., reasons).

 

Is there a grave reason to avoid pregnancy? If they do not want children, then they should not pursue the vocation of marriage.

Edited April 28, 2013 by LouisvilleFan

[Gabriela]

Why, then, do we allow an infertile couple to get married? If I know I'm infertile, and my partner knows he's infertile, but we want to get married, the Church would not say 'no'. Or if a Catholic woman wants to marry a man who, say, has already had a vasectomy, the Church would not say 'no'.

 

Why?

[jim111]

So what do you call it when a couple is using NFP in order to become pregnant? Or determine the date of conception? What if a single woman or wife wants to know she is healthy? Or is diagnosing/managing a medical condition? These are all uses of NFP that have nothing to do with the specific use that Pius XII is addressing.

 

      When I say NFP, I mean when people use is having relations when the the woman is not fertile. I am not sure how this can be used to get pregnant. She can determin the date of conception by choosing the day she wants to sleep with her husband. As Pius XII stated, medical conditions are a valid reasonfor practicing NFP.

 

 

 

 

Is there a grave reason to avoid pregnancy? If they do not want children, then they should not pursue the vocation of marriage.

 

If a family is poor to the point where they are starving, it can be licit to use NFP to avoid pregnancy.

 

[Maggyie]

      When I say NFP, I mean when people use is having relations when the the woman is not fertile. I am not sure how this can be used to get pregnant. She can determin the date of conception by choosing the day she wants to sleep with her husband. As Pius XII stated, medical conditions are a valid reasonfor practicing NFP.

 

 

 

 

 

If a family is poor to the point where they are starving, it can be licit to use NFP to avoid pregnancy.

 

If you don't understand how a woman could use NFP to become pregnant, then you don't understand NFP.

 

If you think a woman can determine the date of conception by choosing the day she has sex, you don't understand human biology or how sex works.

 

Did you know - Sometimes a couple can have sex at the beginning of the week, and the resulting conception doesn't actually happen until the end of that week?

 

Were you given any sex education? I'm seriously asking. If you're fuzzy on the details there are a lot of non-explicit materials I can hook you up with.

 

NFP is fertility awareness, period, in fact I hate referring to it as NFP because it's doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with family planning.

[jim111]

Why, then, do we allow an infertile couple to get married? If I know I'm infertile, and my partner knows he's infertile, but we want to get married, the Church would not say 'no'. Or if a Catholic woman wants to marry a man who, say, has already had a vasectomy, the Church would not say 'no'.

 

Why?

 

Though the rasing of children is the primary puropse of marraige there are also secondary resons. As long as one does not go agist the primary purpose, they may benefit from the secondary purpose of marriage.

 

"59. Holy Church knows well that not infrequently one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning,
when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case,
there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade
and to deter the partner from sin. Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married
state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of
certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial
rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting
of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated
to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved."         Pius XI, Casti Canubi

 

As a result of origonal sin mans body was susceptable to physical evils, which are imperfections of the body caused by nature. These inculde dwarfs, ADD, or any bodily imperfection. They are evils becuase they are contrary to a proper functioning human being. A sterile person is another physical evil where the sexual organs do not function properly. They may partake in the sexual act, as long as it is nature that is the case of the improper functioing of there body and not mans choice, to prevent his body form achiving the prupose God gave it. There is also the possibility a miracle could occur.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2013 by jim111

[beatitude]

Why, then, do we allow an infertile couple to get married? If I know I'm infertile, and my partner knows he's infertile, but we want to get married, the Church would not say 'no'. Or if a Catholic woman wants to marry a man who, say, has already had a vasectomy, the Church would not say 'no'.

 

Why?

 

I think there is a difference between not being able to have children through no fault of your own, and deliberately deciding that you will never conceive a child even though medically you're OK.

 

What is important in a marriage - in any vocation, really - is generosity of spirit. If an infertile couple marries, they are embracing one another in love, even though they have limitations that other couples might not face. They will now work together to give and receive love in spite of those limitations. Maybe they will be extra active in the parish. Maybe they will foster a disturbed child who has no other home to go to. Maybe they will just be a really fun sleepover destination for beloved nieces and nephews. And maybe their infertility is just a temporary cross, and eventually they will be blessed with children, as Elizabeth and Zechariah were and Abraham and Sarah - after they have received the trust and faith that God is working to give them through their circumstances. In all these situations, the couple is reaching for holiness, trying to be as generous and self-giving as possible. They are holding nothing back. They are offering everything they have.

 

If you are a perfectly healthy couple and you want to get married, but you decide that you just don't want any children, you are holding something back. That is the difference. Of course, there is no guarantee that a married couple will conceive any children even if they don't practise NFP and have no known fertility problems. That's OK. Our faith doesn't say 'thou shalt have 4.6 children exactly'. We are just called to live generously within our particular vocation, and this means embracing possibility. This is a sacred thing.

 

If you do not feel as though you ever want children, and this is a steady feeling that is present throughout your prayer and discernment, then the possibility is that marriage may not be the right way for you to go in life.

[jim111]

If you don't understand how a woman could use NFP to become pregnant, then you don't understand NFP.

 

If you think a woman can determine the date of conception by choosing the day she has sex, you don't understand human biology or how sex works.

 

Did you know - Sometimes a couple can have sex at the beginning of the week, and the resulting conception doesn't actually happen until the end of that week?

 

Were you given any sex education? I'm seriously asking. If you're fuzzy on the details there are a lot of non-explicit materials I can hook you up with.

 

NFP is fertility awareness, period, in fact I hate referring to it as NFP because it's doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with family planning.

 

If you mean having sex during the fertile times of a womans cycle, then that is clearly not what I am talking about, did you read the OP.

 

My comments were to address people who have relations at specific times to avoid having children.
 

Edited April 28, 2013 by jim111

[Basilisa Marie]

Look, the problem here I think is that you're assuming that the procreative purpose of sex is much more important than its unitive nature, which isn't true.  They are equally important, otherwise it would be ONLY moral to have sex when a woman is known to be fertile.  But that's not the case - a married couple can engage at any time in a woman's cycle. Even if a couple isn't using any kind of fertility awareness method to space children, if the wife is using ecological breastfeeding she'll be infertile for a long time after she gives birth - and it's moral for the couple to engage in relations then, too.  These cases help show us that the unitive nature of sex is just as important as the procreative nature, and the two can't ever be separated.  

 

And while the Church gives good guidelines on what constitutes a "serious reason," the truth of practical experience is that every couple is different, because every human being is unique. A serious reason for one couple may not be a serious reason for another, and this is OKAY.  What is important is that the couple prayerfully discern their serious reasons, often in consultation with a priest or spiritual director.   

 

For many people, living without any method of keeping track of when the wife is fertile and "accepting children as they come and letting God plan the size of our family" would actually be a source of temptation toward the sin of presumption.  There's a line between trusting in God and assuming God will hand you a job with a six figure salary and a nicely-sized house to support 20 children.  Nowadays it's much more expensive to raise children than in the past (I'm talking like decades and decades ago), and with modern medical advances nearly all children born to a couple would live into adulthood, whereas a century or two ago, depending on where you lived, that wasn't a sure thing.  It's not fair for us or prudent to automatically pass such harsh judgment on a couple's serious reason.  Instead our first instinct should be to charity, and assume that a couple has no or only a few children that there is a serious reason.  And frankly, that reason is most often none of our business. 

[Archaeology cat]

At its core, NFP is about knowing your body. For someone like me, with irregular cycles at any time and long periods of infertility due to breastfeeding, this is invaluable knowledge. We can then choose to use hat knowledge to conceive or avoid, or ignore any rules, as we discern. The Church, in Her wisdom, has not laid down rigid criteria for knowing when it is ok to use this knowledge to avoid, to my knowledge.

[Amppax]

Look, the problem here I think is that you're assuming that the procreative purpose of sex is much more important than its unitive nature, which isn't true.  They are equally important, otherwise it would be ONLY moral to have sex when a woman is known to be fertile.  But that's not the case - a married couple can engage at any time in a woman's cycle. Even if a couple isn't using any kind of fertility awareness method to space children, if the wife is using ecological breastfeeding she'll be infertile for a long time after she gives birth - and it's moral for the couple to engage in relations then, too.  These cases help show us that the unitive nature of sex is just as important as the procreative nature, and the two can't ever be separated.  

 

I'm not sure if the highlighted portions are quite true.  I'm trying to remember what I read in Casti Connubii but I think this contradicts that. As I recall, the procreative has primacy and is more important.  At the same time, the unitive aspect can't be downplayed, it is important.  

 

I really hate to just say this and run, but Finals week.  I'll try to come back to this with some actual quotes.  

 

Edit: I do agree that they can't be separated.  

Edited April 29, 2013 by Amppax