Near Death Experiences?

[HisChildForever]

One night a few years ago I was glued to this website chock full of near death experience stories. While the stories had some similarities there were also huge differences. For example, there were Christians who reported Jesus, no Jesus, and nothingness - just like there were Buddhists who reported Jesus, or the general concept of a God, or loved ones, whatever. I wish I could remember the site. Anyway, I know this is the internet and people can make up whatever they'd like, but we hear these stories in the news, maybe the workplace, maybe from a friend.

 

How do we as Catholic Christians make sense of these stories, especially if certain versions of the afterlife don't jive with Catholic theology?

[HisChildForever]

Blah, I meant JIBE.

[Little Flower]

I talked to my dad about this (he knows a LOT about theology and stuff) and he told me that, first of all, probably most of these aren't real. Either the person is making it up, or the pain meds made them loopy, or when they were unconscious they had lifelike dreams or something. 

 

I was specifically asking about this book I had read, Heaven is for Real, about a protestant little boy who has a near death experience. I was wondering why he didn't see Mary, and everything he saw was basically in line with what his family already believed. My dad said that Jesus doesn't force himself on us, and so probably wouldn't do that. 
 

So basically, for someone in another religion, if they had a near-death experience, God would not be like "Bam, here's everything you've had wrong all your life" but would show his presence in a way that the person would comprehend with their beliefs and experiences in their own life.

 

My dad also said that it is important to note that these people are not actually in heaven; when you go there you don't come back. Rather, God has allowed them to have some experience of what heaven might be like, or even just of his love for them giving them an experience that they can understand.

 

So basically, most of them probably aren't real, but just because they don't entirely make sense with Catholic beliefs doesn't mean they necessarily are fake.

 

Does this make sense?

[jazzytakara]

I feel as if it is best not to take most of these stories too seriously. A near death experience is not the same as dying/death. The human soul to my understanding will only pass on to heaven/hell/purgatory once human life has ended, so near death experiences may bring a person close to the moment of death, but rarely will the person actually experience what departed souls experience. Also, there are a lot of tests that describe these 'visions' as something similar to dreams/hallucinations.

 

In cases were someone has died for a few minutes before being resuscitated, God is all knowing and thus would know whether or not the person is going to pass on or be brought back. It makes more sense to me that every human who undergoes minutes of death before being resuscitated will not pass on to the afterlife, as they are not actually leaving the world of the living yet. Unless God actually chooses to grant someone divine revelation, most of these stories are more than likely made up, dreams, or hallucinations of some sort. 

 

I used to struggle with these stories, for instance when people speak of 'past life memories'. I came across a thread on some site once where people were convinced of reincarnation as their children would say things like 'my other mother and sister were okay after the car crash, but I wasn't and now I'm here'. There were also discussions of people having dreams or what they referred to as 'memories' of injuries in a past life where they now have birthmarks. I eventually rationalized from my own experiences as a child and with younger relatives, that children pick up weird things all of the time. My cousin once thought if he sat still too long aliens would come get him, I thought a reflection of light on the wall in a room was a ghost names Savia when I was child. So who knows where children pick up the things they pick up. As for the birthmark stories, the dreams were probably the response to the person wondering about their birthmark. When we think of things a lot or have certain things we know about and are constant in our life, our dreams will reflect them. I recently started watching Supernatural and once in awhile I will have dreams featuring the actors or their characters. 

 

I kind of became sidetracked, all I can say is to take these stories like a grain of salt and pray about it. =) 

 

As an Aside: I've also sometimes wondered if Purgatory is a place also for those of other faiths and have lived a good life, but have never had a chance to know God? For instance, Purgatory would work in the traditional manner for Catholic-Christians as a means to cleanse from sins, but also as a means to introduce God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit to those who never knew them? 

Edited May 29, 2013 by jazzytakara

[HisChildForever]

Just to be clear, with the stories I'm referring to, the people weren't unconscious or in a coma, they had already flat-lined and the doctors were working on them to bring them back. On either a TV segment or a documentary I've seen, one person resuscitated on the table was later able to describe everything in the room (because he'd "seen" everything leaving/returning to his body), as well as specific words and terminology the doctors/nurses had been using that no one outside the room could've known about. He was unconscious before and after he flat-lined so it's not like he was awake and able to process his surroundings.

 

In cases were someone has died for a few minutes before being resuscitated, God is all knowing and thus would know whether or not the person is going to pass on or be brought back. [b]It makes more sense to me that every human who undergoes minutes of death before being resuscitated will not pass on to the afterlife, as they are not actually leaving the world of the living yet.[/b] Unless God actually chooses to grant someone divine revelation, most of these stories are more than likely made up, dreams, or hallucinations of some sort. 

 

Then where exactly is the soul at this point? Just being a devil's advocate.

[Little Flower]

Just to be clear, with the stories I'm referring to, the people weren't unconscious or in a coma, they had already flat-lined and the doctors were working on them to bring them back. On either a TV segment or a documentary I've seen, one person resuscitated on the table was later able to describe everything in the room (because he'd "seen" everything leaving/returning to his body), as well as specific words and terminology the doctors/nurses had been using that no one outside the room could've known about. He was unconscious before and after he flat-lined so it's not like he was awake and able to process his surroundings.

 

 

Then where exactly is the soul at this point? Just being a devil's advocate.

Although the person may be brain dead, the soul would still be within the body. There is a reason that the Catholic Church allows Last Rites to be administered well after a person is presumably dead (I don't remember exactly but I believe it may be as much as multiple hours), because we don't know exactly how long after physical death the soul leaves the body. In the case of a person who dies and comes back to life, the soul would never have left the body.

 

ETA: the soul is bound incredibly strongly to the body, and it probably can't immediately just up and clean cut away from the body, but rather take a while to disattatch itself and leave

Edited May 29, 2013 by Little Flower

[CatherineM]

Near death is just that, it's not death. God knows if we are going to be revived or not. When I almost died, I heard my Dad's voice. I don't think that was because I was in Heaven or Hell. I think that was because I was completely vulnerable, and subconsciously wanted my Dad to save me.

[jazzytakara]

Just to be clear, with the stories I'm referring to, the people weren't unconscious or in a coma, they had already flat-lined and the doctors were working on them to bring them back. On either a TV segment or a documentary I've seen, one person resuscitated on the table was later able to describe everything in the room (because he'd "seen" everything leaving/returning to his body), as well as specific words and terminology the doctors/nurses had been using that no one outside the room could've known about. He was unconscious before and after he flat-lined so it's not like he was awake and able to process his surroundings.

 

 

Then where exactly is the soul at this point? Just being a devil's advocate.

 

From my understanding, the soul would still be bound to the human body in someway (no one aside from God know's how the soul is bound to the human body, thus why I used the description 'in someway'). Also if my understanding is correct, the soul only detaches from the body upon permanent death; once detached and 'passing on' it cannot be returned to the body. From this, it can be understood that in the case of temporal death (for instance a person who has flat-lined for a few minutes) the soul remains attached to the body until the body is resuscitated; if the body cannot be resuscitated, it detaches as passes on to the afterlife (whether that be Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell). The case you spoke of may be the patients experience, as the soul may be aware of the surroundings even if the body temporarily dead; the soul is more than likely still attached to the human body and thus able to perceive the room and scenario around it and by God's will is able to remember this experience to recall at a later date and time once resuscitated. What I have read so far from Catholic Theology is that all souls pass on once permanently dead, they do not linger on Earth like some secular media teaches (ghosts, etc.). So if the person who has flat-lined is meant to die at that point, their soul will pass on into the afterlife upon detaching from the body, but if the person is meant to live on, their soul will remain attached to the body. 

 

I'm not sure if this makes any sense, and if anyone is better versed in theology notices an error, please correct me, I'd like to understand this concept myself (as much as any human can understand). 

[Little Flower]

From my understanding, the soul would still be bound to the human body in someway (no one aside from God know's how the soul is bound to the human body, thus why I used the description 'in someway'). Also if my understanding is correct, the soul only detaches from the body upon permanent death; once detached and 'passing on' it cannot be returned to the body. From this, it can be understood that in the case of temporal death (for instance a person who has flat-lined for a few minutes) the soul remains attached to the body until the body is resuscitated; if the body cannot be resuscitated, it detaches as passes on to the afterlife (whether that be Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell). The case you spoke of may be the patients experience, as the soul may be aware of the surroundings even if the body temporarily dead; the soul is more than likely still attached to the human body and thus able to perceive the room and scenario around it and by God's will is able to remember this experience to recall at a later date and time once resuscitated. What I have read so far from Catholic Theology is that all souls pass on once permanently dead, they do not linger on Earth like some secular media teaches (ghosts, etc.). So if the person who has flat-lined is meant to die at that point, their soul will pass on into the afterlife upon detaching from the body, but if the person is meant to live on, their soul will remain attached to the body. 

 

I'm not sure if this makes any sense, and if anyone is better versed in theology notices an error, please correct me, I'd like to understand this concept myself (as much as any human can understand). 

Thank you for phrasing what I wanted to say waaaayyy better than I ever could. Your explanation made so much more sense. :)

 

And I hadn't thought about the idea of the soul still being aware of the surroundings although the body is unconscious... that makes sense. Of course I'm no theologian myself :P

[dominicansoul]

I'm not sure what the Church teaches on these experiences, but have you all heard of Father Steven Scheier?  He was in a terrible accident, and while in emergency surgery, the doctors "lost" him.  Father claims he died and went to his judgement.  He was horrified by the experience because He wasn't going to heaven, Christ was sending him to hell for being a lukewarm priest.  It was during his "sentencing" that he heard the voice of a woman behind him, pleading with her Son not to condemn him but to spare him.  He "came back" on the operating table (something the doctors themselves find miraculous,) and now Father shares his story everywhere, especially at retreats for priests...

 

I find his story incredible but I don't doubt he experienced it.  I just wonder how much of what happens to people during "near death experiences" is psychological rather than reality...

 

 

 

[Luigi]

I thought I was dying once, and I remember thinking, "Oh - so this is what happens when you die." Very calmly.

 

In fact, I was only passing out. That had never happened before, so I didn't recognize it.

 

But then I puked, which prevented me from passing out.

 

 

 

 

 

But I didn't change my life radically afterward or anything - I'm still just plain ol' me.

[Guest]

I read Heaven is for real which is the story of that little boy...I also read Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander....Proof of Heaven is really convincing....But here's the catch...He now believes reincarnations are 100 percent valid from what he went through....I don't believe in reincarnation but then again at the end of the day I really don't know either....I don't even know if God exist....I believe he does and hope He does but I don't know for sure....And if God does exist I don't know for sure its the God of christianity...Again I think it is and I hope it is but its not something I know for sure...Nde's are interesting to say the least....They give me hope that God is real and everything doesn't just end at the end of this life....

[Guest]

I read Heaven is for real which is the story of that little boy...I also read Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander....Proof of Heaven is really convincing....But here's the catch...He now believes reincarnations are 100 percent valid from what he went through....I don't believe in reincarnation but then again at the end of the day I really don't know either....I don't even know if God exist....I believe he does and hope He does but I don't know for sure....And if God does exist I don't know for sure its the God of christianity...Again I think it is and I hope it is but its not something I know for sure...Nde's are interesting to say the least....They give me hope that God is real and everything doesn't just end at the end of this life....

[HisChildForever]

Although the person may be brain dead, the soul would still be within the body. There is a reason that the Catholic Church allows Last Rites to be administered well after a person is presumably dead (I don't remember exactly but I believe it may be as much as multiple hours), because we don't know exactly how long after physical death the soul leaves the body.

 

I thought brain death meant that there's no coming back, the body has to be kept alive on machines - in that case we can "pull the plug" so to speak. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Guest]

Ya all the nd experiences where someone has been "dead" they really weren't all the way dead...Or they wouldn't be alive...They might have been close though....Doctor Eben Alexander claims to be really close to being clinicaly dead and having no brain activity when his nde happened...And it was over like 7 days....His book is really good...I read it all in one sitting I think...Or two....

Edited May 30, 2013 by Guest

[Ice_nine]

I'd like to read Proof of Heaven. I think what's most interesting about that book is that he is a scientist and scientists of this day and age are really predominantly materialistic, so might be interesting from a scientific view, if not a theological one, that consciousness can exist apart from matter.

 

 

A lot of times nde tend to reinforce a person's learned faith. For example, I've not heard a Christian had a nde that involved mohammad or vice versa with Christians.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

 

How do we as Catholic Christians make sense of these stories, especially if certain versions of the afterlife don't jive with Catholic theology?

Take Ketamine. 

[Guest]

From what I've read ketamine isn't exactly the same as nde's and the experience is different.....Nde's from my understaning are the realest thing ever experienced by the people who have them....Not like a dream when you wake up you know its a dream no matter how real the dream seemed...A lot of the nde's say they felt more alive and alert then they could of ever imagined possible and then they ever felt in this life...

Edited May 31, 2013 by Guest

[Guest]

Ice Nine you should check it out...Its a good read...Catholics pry won't like it though because he doesn't agree with christian teaching...He was I think like a methodist or something like that going into the experience and he still is now although he believes in reincarnation now...He was told that there are other universes and higher forms of life and we have multiple lives...The guy seems sincere though and I don't believe he is just out for a buck....His story was amazing and its backed up by science...The question is did the experience really happen and if it did then what does that say about the way we view God and things like reincarnation and sin....Again I'm Catholic so I believe christian teaching....But in a case like this it comes down to either the experience didn't happen or it did...And if it did then the way he experienced God was different then you would expect growing up to believe christianity was the truth and the way it is.....Although there seemed to be a lot of similarites too...I guess you just have to read the book...He's actually coming out with a part two and its going to be talking about things he learned and reincarnation and stuff....lol so I don't know....anyhow Godbless....

[Guest]

I take that back Ketamine (special k) is actually really similar to nde's....I was thinking dmt or something like that...sorry...

Edited May 31, 2013 by Guest