Perpetual Discernment?

[just-sayin]

I don't know where else to ask this question, and I hope you all can help me.  We have a mature family member who has been in the process of discernment for at least six years.  She quit her job several years ago and has visited many religious orders in the US and in other countries, with extended stays in at least five convents.  She is truly a religious person whose life revolves around prayer and meditation.  However she avoids all commitment. She has some independent income but avoids spending any money and presents herself as without means.  Every summer she gives herself several months "off" during which she stays with friends and family members, or travels staying, if possible, in convents or hostels.  She does not currently have a spiritual advisor and avoids discussion with family. We truly do not think she will ever become a nun as she complains in every place about basic features of monastic life related to daily schedules, regular work, food, use of computers, their particular style of worship, respectful obedience within a hierarchy, etc.  She has no interest in working with children, older people, the sick or the poor.  She says she wants a contemplative life.

So, in your experience, is this going from one convent to another common?  If you are in a religious order, are you OK with people who are more or less "convent surfing"?  Do you ask for resumes or references before you invite people to visit for several months.  I'm somewhat shocked and think our family member is taking advantage of the nuns who take her in.  She can sound quite sincere about her interest in Order X but can leave abruptly when she feels like it.  I think she is definitely searching but we are not sure her process is healthy for her or the people around her.  Should we try to do more to intervene or have faith that things will somehow work out?    

[To Jesus Through Mary]

Sounds like she has a bit of a complex situation. So I am not sure I can offer any real words of wisdom for you except I would strong encourage her to seek out a solid spiritual director since she is struggling so much in her discernment. 

 

Oh and welcome to Phatmass! :)

[inperpetuity]

I will quickly comment here because it's late. Your relative is an adult, so it's probably best to leave her discernment between her and God unless she is asking you for advice.  Six years is not long in this day and age.  Convents and monasteries are not what they once were some are better, some are much worse.  If she is older than it's going to be more difficult for her, but hopefully she will find her place.  If she is really a person of prayer as you say, then God will surely lead her.  A contemplative vocation is different than having a vocation to the "active life" such as a nursing or teaching order of sisters.  If someone is called to the contemplative life, they will not fit in with an active community, and vice versa.  I have personally known several contemplative nuns who after being in an active community even for several years, left for a contemplative one and ultimately made profession.  I cannot judge the motives of your relative since I do not know her, probably not even if I did know her, since we cannot know what truly goes on between the soul and God.  From what you have said here, it doesn't sound like her behavior is cause for concern.   I would say that the best intervention you can do is to pray for her, that God's holy will will be accomplished in and through her.  I will say a prayer for her as well.  :)

Edited June 26, 2013 by inperpetuity

[nikita92]

Sounds like she wants to.. But then again makes up excuses not to. Humm.. Hopefully she is not playing on communities generosity as a means of not having to spend money on food and lodging for herself. Just sayin...

[nikita92]

Sounds like she wants to.. But then again makes up excuses not to. Humm.. Hopefully she is not playing on communities generosity as a means of not having to spend money on food and lodging for herself. Just sayin...

[beatitude]

I don't think it's helpful to guess about her. No one here knows her, and what we said could not possibly do any good. I think the best thing you can do is pray that she finds the peace she is hunting for.

[Nunsense]

I don't know where else to ask this question, and I hope you all can help me.  We have a mature family member who has been in the process of discernment for at least six years.  She quit her job several years ago and has visited many religious orders in the US and in other countries, with extended stays in at least five convents.  She is truly a religious person whose life revolves around prayer and meditation.  However she avoids all commitment. She has some independent income but avoids spending any money and presents herself as without means.  Every summer she gives herself several months "off" during which she stays with friends and family members, or travels staying, if possible, in convents or hostels.  She does not currently have a spiritual advisor and avoids discussion with family. We truly do not think she will ever become a nun as she complains in every place about basic features of monastic life related to daily schedules, regular work, food, use of computers, their particular style of worship, respectful obedience within a hierarchy, etc.  She has no interest in working with children, older people, the sick or the poor.  She says she wants a contemplative life.

So, in your experience, is this going from one convent to another common?  If you are in a religious order, are you OK with people who are more or less "convent surfing"?  Do you ask for resumes or references before you invite people to visit for several months.  I'm somewhat shocked and think our family member is taking advantage of the nuns who take her in.  She can sound quite sincere about her interest in Order X but can leave abruptly when she feels like it.  I think she is definitely searching but we are not sure her process is healthy for her or the people around her.  Should we try to do more to intervene or have faith that things will somehow work out?    

 

 

Wow - if it wasn´t for the fact that you claim to be Catholic, this could almost be about me! My family are too loving and supportive of me however, to write such an incredibly heartless and judgmental post. I will certainly pray that God gives you some empathy and some wisdom, to understand just how hard it is for someone who feels called by God to religious life, especially comtemplative religious, and is unable for whatever reason or motivation to fulfill that dream.

 

Please come down off that high horse you are sitting on and try to be a little more kind and compassionate towards your ´mature´family member. The older one gets, the harder it is to feel like a failure over and over again. I speak from personal experience. It isn´t for us to judge the motivations or desires of another person - only God can do that. As a family member, I would expect you to be more supportive -  not posting this kind of thing here would be a good start.

 

As for ´taking advantage´of the nuns -- nonsense. Anyone in a community works darn hard. They get as much out of her being with them, as she does i living the life. It is a mutual expression of love for God. so let it go. If the sisters aren´t complaining, and I strongly doubt they would, then neither should you.

 

If you have other issues over her staying with family members during the times she is not in a convent - then deal with that face to face with her or with other family members, and not here on this forum.

 

I´m just glad you´re not a member of my family. Mine are mostly agnostics and atheists, and no one is more supportive and loving than they are. Shame on you.

[ACS67]

So, in your experience, is this going from one convent to another common?  If you are in a religious order, are you OK with people who are more or less "convent surfing"?  Do you ask for resumes or references before you invite people to visit for several months. 

 

The answer to the above is "yes", the person visiting a monastery or convent has to have references usually from a priest.  So obviously there was a priest, or perhaps more than one, who recommended your "family member" and believed that she might have a vocation and encouraged her to try. 

 

As others have already stated it would not be right for us to comment on your family member's situation.  We don't know what her motives are or the desires of her heart, only God does, and ultimately His judgment is all that will matter in the end.   

[Antigonos]

Nunsense -- glad to see you are back online.  Does this mean you got your iPad?  And how is your pilgrimage progressing?  [I can't PM people, sorry]

[Golden Years]

I will quickly comment here because it's late. Your relative is an adult, so it's probably best to leave her discernment between her and God unless she is asking you for advice.  Six years is not long in this day and age.  Convents and monasteries are not what they once were some are better, some are much worse.  If she is older than it's going to be more difficult for her, but hopefully she will find her place.  If she is really a person of prayer as you say, then God will surely lead her.  A contemplative vocation is different than having a vocation to the "active life" such as a nursing or teaching order of sisters.  If someone is called to the contemplative life, they will not fit in with an active community, and vice versa.  I have personally known several contemplative nuns who after being in an active community even for several years, left for a contemplative one and ultimately made profession.  I cannot judge the motives of your relative since I do not know her, probably not even if I did know her, since we cannot know what truly goes on between the soul and God.  From what you have said here, it doesn't sound like her behavior is cause for concern.   I would say that the best intervention you can do is to pray for her, that God's holy will will be accomplished in and through her.  I will say a prayer for her as well.  :)

 

Well said. 

[AnneLine]

Antigonos... and all.... Nunsense has a thread she started today on Open Mic explaining what's going on with her and giving us an update on her walk on The Camino.  Today she was writing from an Internet Café.    (I know many VSers often don't like OpenMic, but that's where she's posting...).  You might check in there to see if there is a thread about her from time to time...; it sounds as if she really is NOT going to post much on VocationStation.... at least not for a while...)

 

-------

 

welcome to Phatmass, Just-sayin'! 

 

Vocation Station posters tend to be mostly people who are discerning vocations, and a few of us (like me!) who try to support them and the family and friends of those who are discerning.  

 

Some of the people on here are people who are coming in or going out of religious life.... and as you can understand, I am sure, some of us have strong feelings!  And it sounds like you do, too!

 

I'm trying to read and process what you put in a loving, neutral light as much as I can.   I don't want to judge you or your relative.   I can see both sides of the question.   In no special order, here are a few thoughts....

 

Discerning a contemplative vocation:  A vocation to a contemplative community usually is discerned in part because the individual feels a compelling draw to serving God primarily through prayer and penance.  Most contemplative communities do not have an active apostolate such as teaching, nursing, etc.   Their role is different -- more like that of a stay-at-home mom for souls rather than someone with an active ministry.   It can look like 'doing nothing' to people on the outside, but as any stay-at-home mom will tell you, their lives are VERY busy... and the same is true with contemplatives.  They are very active and very much aware of what goes on in the outside world... because they have to pray for it!   Many of the people on VS are discerning vocations to the contemplative life, and we can help you to understand its special call and beauty if you wish.

 

Discerning Vocations:   At this time, the way people discern vocations for religious life (active or contemplative) is by contacting communities, interacting usually by phone or email or letter, and then going to visit.  But there really is no way to know if it is a 'fit' unless the person goes to try the life.  Some communities allow a short visit within the cloister (a 'live-in'), and others will want the person to stay a week or a few weeks or months in an outside room or apartment near the community.  It is the way that it is done.... but I can see how it would look  like just 'hanging around' to someone on the outside.  Often the community gives the person some kind of work to do while they are there, but often not.   But it is a time for the discerner and for the community to have those discussions about whether the way that group of sisters lives the lifestyle is a good fit for the individual... and for the community to do the same!

 

References:  Religious communities do ask for references before someone comes in... and they don't offer such a visit until after the individual and community have corresponded and/or connected by phone a bit.  They also usually ask about where else someone has tried their vocation and/or is discerning with at present.  So my guess is that the communities are aware of your relative's ongoing discernment.   Trust me... monastic vocation directors are VERY astute!

 

Older Vocations:  You may or may not know that for many older vocations (and that is pretty much those over 40...) it is very hard to find a community that will consider them.  Many US communities have set age limits, but many in England, for example, have not.  So often older discerners who can do so may consider places that are widely apart geographically.

 

Why would someone check so many places?  Each religious family (Carmelite, Dominican, Franciscan, Benedictine, etc.) has a very different focus and lifestyle... and how the life is lived out varies considerably from house to house even within the religious families.   So... in sum, yes it is not uncommon for people to bounce to a number of places as they discern which family and then which community is a good fit.... or at least a good-enough fit.  

 

Perpetual Discernment?   This is always a bit question... when is enough, and when is too much!    We can't judge your relative.... but it's not uncommon for people to discern a number of years, even for older vocations.  It can take time to find the right 'family', and then it can take time to find the right 'house' within that family.   As far as the financial issue... going from place to place does take money.  Sad but true.  Most communities require at least one visit, and often several.  

 

Staying with communities and in hostels:   It makes sense to me that your relative is finding the least expensive places to stay... and in Europe, many religious communities will let pilgrims and travelers stay in their houses for a minimum fee.... it still brings some income into the community.  This is true even for those who are NOT discerning religious life....

 

Your reactions:   If you aren't comfortable with your relative staying with YOU as part of the process, you need to let her know that.   If you aren't comfortable with her processing her experience with you... if YOU are tired of that, just let her know.  And... If you have questions about why someone would discern a vocation after a full work life, trust me, there are people on VS who can help you understand this!

 

Above all, I think it is important to not judge her, but to be as supportive as you can while making sure YOU don't feel taken advantage of.   That is about setting your own healthy limits.   :)

 

Will pray for you and for her.... and if we can help, I'm sure we will.  

 

Holding all of you in prayer!

[just-sayin]

Thank you all for your responses to my post. I have great appreciation for the sisters who were my teachers, for my childhood friends who were called to religious life, and for the women in religious communities who are actively working for social justice in my city and around the world. I can see I have had stereotyped views of contemplative communities and the process of discernment for women in the 21st century. While in my life, I have worked to bring about greater choices and equality for younger women, I also see how greater freedom often brings greater stress for women in every vocation.
While I was afraid I would offend this community by asking questions and "just-sayin," I want you to know that I have learned so much, not only by your responses to my post but also by reading about your experiences. I don't know anywhere else I could find such an open, informed, and frank discussion without revealing the identity of my family member and jeopardizing her privacy.
If my post is hurtful, I sincerely apologize.
With better understanding, I think I can be more supportive and not worry so much about her. You are so right that we cannot truly know what goes on between the soul and God. She is indeed hunting for peace, and I also feel reassured that there are others that are praying for her and accompanying her on this journey. I am also reassured that through her process she is contributing to the communities she visits, and that you understand her struggles.
You are very perceptive (probably based on experience!) that I and other family members do have our own issues related to family responsibilities, expectations, and boundaries. There's nothing like an old-fashioned Catholic school background to turn out folks who are judgmental, but I hope not heartless. Over six years, we have discussed and set some limits on how much material support we can give (money, places to stay, transportation, health insurance, etc.) and that pushes the Catholic guilt buttons; it does feel mean and heartless. This journey has been surprisingly difficult for our family who, again stereotypically, are supposed to be grateful for a vocation or calling within our family.
Thank you again. I hope this doesn't sound frivolous but I think our family needs to "lighten up." We have a bad habit of fretting about our sweet sister, daughter, aunt, cousin, niece, friend. Where will she go next? Will she be safe and secure? What about her FUTURE? Yes, we are indeed on our "high horses" if we think we can answer these questions for ourselves, let alone for others. You make me realize that we are guilty of that psychological tendency to focus families tensions unfairly on a designated "problem child."
So, for us. Yes, we will pray for greater trust, understanding, love. Yes, we will pray for our relative, for you, and for ourselves. Yes, I will try to remember we are not back in the 1950's with the flying nun.

[just-sayin]

Thank you all for your responses to my post. I have great appreciation for the sisters who were my teachers, for my childhood friends who were called to religious life, and for the women in religious communities who are actively working for social justice in my city and around the world. I can see I have had stereotyped views of contemplative communities and the process of discernment for women in the 21st century. While in my life, I have worked to bring about greater choices and equality for younger women, I also see how greater freedom often brings greater stress for women in every vocation.
While I was afraid I would offend this community by asking questions and "just-sayin," I want you to know that I have learned so much, not only by your responses to my post but also by reading about your experiences. I don't know anywhere else I could find such an open, informed, and frank discussion without revealing the identity of my family member and jeopardizing her privacy.
If my post is hurtful, I sincerely apologize.
With better understanding, I think I can be more supportive and not worry so much about her. You are so right that we cannot truly know what goes on between the soul and God. She is indeed hunting for peace, and I also feel reassured that there are others that are praying for her and accompanying her on this journey. I am also reassured that through her process she is contributing to the communities she visits, and that you understand her struggles.
You are very perceptive (probably based on experience!) that I and other family members do have our own issues related to family responsibilities, expectations, and boundaries. There's nothing like an old-fashioned Catholic school background to turn out folks who are judgmental, but I hope not heartless. Over six years, we have discussed and set some limits on how much material support we can give (money, places to stay, transportation, health insurance, etc.) and that pushes the Catholic guilt buttons; it does feel mean and heartless. This journey has been surprisingly difficult for our family who, again stereotypically, are supposed to be grateful for a vocation or calling within our family.
Thank you again. I hope this doesn't sound frivolous but I think our family needs to "lighten up." We have a bad habit of fretting about our sweet sister, daughter, aunt, cousin, niece, friend. Where will she go next? Will she be safe and secure? What about her FUTURE? Yes, we are indeed on our "high horses" if we think we can answer these questions for ourselves, let alone for others. You make me realize that we are guilty of that psychological tendency to focus families tensions unfairly on a designated "problem child."
So, for us. Yes, we will pray for greater trust, understanding, love. Yes, we will pray for our relative, for you, and for ourselves. Yes, I will try to remember we are not back in the 1950's with the flying nun.

[AnneLine]

I'm glad we were able to be helpful for you, JS!   

 

(By the way... you get the double post effect if you 'resubmit' a post... they sometimes take a LONG time to register on Phatmass.  I've found it helpful to open a second window and see if the post has registered... usually it will appear there BEFORE your new-post window has disappeared....)

 

We haven't had too many siblings/family members come here for answers, and there isn't a good way to ask questions like this.   A religious vocation can be tough on those who don't totally understand the lifestyle... and even on those who do!    We have had a few unsure parents, and sometimes others will come on to give them some ideas.  There are even a few cloistered nun moms who show up on VS from time to time....

 

Something that might be helpful for you is to follow some of the websites and especially the blogs that some cloistered communities are doing right now.   They will give you a 'window' into the cloister and the discernment process that would probably be very helpful.

 

Three of them that come to mind are:

 

Dominican Nuns of Summit, NJ

 

Website:  http://nunsopsummit.org/

Blog:  http://nunsopsummit.org/blog

 

 

Passionist Nuns of Whitesville, KY

 

Website: http://www.passionistnuns.org/

Blog: http://www.passionistnuns.org/blog/

 

 

Poor Clare Colettines of Barhamsville, VA

 

Website: http://www.poor-clares.org/index.php

Blog: http://www.pcheartponderings.blogspot.com/

 

You should know, JS, that NONE of these communities are open to older discerners (as far as I know)... so none of them are communities that your relative would be exploring.   However, they will give you a good idea of what contemplative cloistered life might be like wherever your relative is discerning.....

 

 

 

Perhaps other Phatmass VS people have other communities and blogs to recommend?   I'm suggesting we give JS some websites and blogs that might give JS a better idea of what 21st Century cloistered life looks like?

 

 

 

[Eowyn]

This is one of my favorite links on cloistered life -  http://www.cloisteredlife.com/

 

Also this one has some good vocation stuff - http://www.vocation.com/QandAItem.aspx?id=1832

 

 

One other idea - maybe just wander around the vocation station for awhile.  You will get a good sense of what people go through while discerning. 

[Gabriela]

I was going to post, but Anneline already said everything I was going to say, and then some, and way better than I could have. Go, Anneline. ;-)

 

I second Eowyn's suggestion to you, JS, to hang around VS and just read random threads. All the agony of discernment is published here...

[Chiquitunga]

This thread is also filled with resources on the cloistered contemplative vocation, http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/127340-help-need-resources-on-cloistered-life-for-parents/  A bunch of the posts there have links to various articles, etc. :like: (which you might miss skimming through it quickly, to let you know)

 

All the posts here so far have been great, btw... inperpetuity, nunsense, AnneLine, and all. I also almost felt like this could have been one of my relatives too!! except that I am not a mature vocation, but I've been on this journey for well over six years... Six years is really not long these days for discernment, especially for an older vocation. 

 

Another one who had a long journey (whom I'm getting a lot of encouragement from) was Sr. Mary of the Holy Trinity, http://www.amazon.com/Life-Message-Mary-Holy-Trinity/dp/089555318X  She was in and out of three communities (not to mention the many others she wrote to and visited) in various countries before she found her home with the Poor Clares in Jerusalem. Also the revelations which she received from Our Lord (not unlike St. Faustina or St. Margaret Mary) touch a lot on the cloistered vocation, which is a particular call from God, rather than a decision on our part... ie, we do not choose this life on our own because for instance we don't want to work with children or the elderly, but (for the one who truly has this vocation) because it is His will that some serve Him in a totally hidden apostolate in this way, which is a different vocation from active religious life... again, not the decision of the discerner. 

 

Anyway, so the book with her revelations is here, http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Legacy-Sister-Mary-Trinity/dp/0895551659/ref=pd_sim_b_1  I love her so much and am so grateful to Our Lord for a dear friend who introduced me to her :pray:

[BarbTherese]

 

 

(By the way... you get the double post effect if you 'resubmit' a post... they sometimes take a LONG time to register on Phatmass.  I've found it helpful to open a second window and see if the post has registered... usually it will appear there BEFORE your new-post window has disappeared....)

 

 

 

I had/have similar problems with double posting.  What I have taken to doing is copying my post then clicking onto F5 which refreshes the thread - most often my post will appear, but if not then I simply repost the copy - or just give up altogether.

[Ex Tyburn Junior]

Can I just chip in from my experience of 'the other side of the grille', so to speak?

 

In my time at Tyburn (5 1/2 years) we saw a LOT of ladies coming to discern vocations. Many of them were older ladies. As a younger sister, I was encouraged to talk with them and try to help them out a bit.

 

I must admit that most of them - NOT ALL OF THEM; just most - didn't seem to have any signs of a real call from God. They were pious women, and good women, but who in some cases came with a 'shopping list' of what they wanted and didn't want in a community.

 

Some were also (only too clearly) older single ladies looking for a kind of sympathetic Catholic retirement village. They had no idea they would be called upon to work physically hard to maintain the convent and the life we lived there. I think some of them thought we still had lay sisters ... 

 

Some were genuine odd-bods who would have trouble fitting in anywhere, and would very quickly find the psychological pressures of an enclosed contemplative community were too much for them. We had an older woman live-in once who ended up slapping one of our older sisters!

 

We also had a couple of older women who actually entered as postulants who were also in this category - oddbods, with limited insight into religious life - but who pretty much refused to leave until they were kindly and firmly counselled out. This is where I learned that 'discernment is a two-way street'. This also comes as a surprise to many older women who come to convents, as they seem to think that they will be leapt upon and ushered in on the spot because orders are 'desperate' for vocations. Not so, ladies. Not so.

 

Convent-shopping - and there are women who do this - is not really a good way of going about finding what God wants and is calling you to do. You do have to go and try the life, and if you don't like it, it's good to move on quickly, and that's commendable that your relative has moved on when she hasn't found what she's clearly looking for.

 

I know there are saints and holy men and women who have found 'late' vocations. But realistically, as time passes, the likelihood of finding the 'right' place does diminish. It's like having a baby - it CAN happen at a much older age, but it's just much less likely! So it's also good to encourage her to explore other options like becoming a consecrated virgin or making private vows. There are many many ways a single woman can do good in the Church and in the world, and still have a contemplative inner life.

 

But yes - beware the professional middle-aged long-distance discerner. I know that religious orders are very wary of these women, and with good reason, which may also explain your relative's lack of success so far.

[Ex Tyburn Junior]

I've re-read your original post - may I just pick up on a couple of red flags I saw there, justsayin?

 

"She does not currently have a spiritual advisor and avoids discussion with family."

 

I can understand avoiding the discussion with the family, as often the family is the worst impediment to religious life. But the lack of spiritual director or advisor is a big red flag. This needs to change if she's not to become a professional long-distance discerner.

 

Someone who isn't receiving spiritual direction is wandering in the dark. Has she ever had a spiritual director? Or has she had a string of them but has gotten rid of them all because they're 'no good' and 'don't understand her'?

 

"We truly do not think she will ever become a nun as she complains in every place about basic features of monastic life related to daily schedules, regular work, food, use of computers, their particular style of worship, respectful obedience within a hierarchy, etc."

 

This is the second red flag. Monastic, contemplative life in every time and place is regulated. How regulated, is what varies, but it's all regulated. You live by a Rule. You surrender your will. You are no longer your own person. So if you don't have computers, you don't have computers. If you fast on Fridays, you fast on Fridays. That's just the way it is.

 

A person who is going to find fault with this is probably not going to last very long in any community living under a rule and under obedience. We had the occasional lovely girl come and live-in who wanted to do Adoration all the time. But you can't do Adoration all the time, because you're rostered to do it at particular times, and there's other work that needs to be done in the other times, if you're living under a Rule in common life and in poverty.

 

Does your relative read much about contemplative life, outside of the brightly-coloured vocations literature pamphlets? Sometimes people think of 'contemplative' life as sitting in a walled garden, gazing wistfully at a rose and thinking sweet thoughts about Jesus. I remember distinctly lying face down on wet concrete in a big apron, with my arm up to my armpit down a dirty blocked sewer pipe at Tyburn, and thinking 'I don't remember them mentioning this in the vocations literature ...'

 

REAL books about religious life include those by Mother Mary Francis on the Poor Clares. They are full of warmth, but also full of realism about the difficulties and challenges and sheer hard work of contemplative life. Reading about real contemplative life might help your relative.

 

I do hope she finds peace. But I suspect she won't find it in a community.