If You Could Start A Religious Order/community, What Would It Be, Or L

[OnlySunshine]

When I was about 12, I had a fantasy about living as a religious hermit in a cave near the ocean.  The name of my religious order would be the "Daughters of God." 

 

 

:saint:

 

 

 

 

Until I realized that would make my initials "D.O.G."

 

  :lol4:

 

 

 

I figured no one would ever join me, and I wanted to live alone anyway, so I would be the only member.  So therefore I would be God's Only Daughter.  Initials:  G.O.D. 

 

 

 

 

That pretty much ended my aspirations of starting my own religious community. 

 

:giveup:

 

:lol4:

 

Too funny!

[TheresaThoma]

When I was about 12, I had a fantasy about living as a religious hermit in a cave near the ocean.  The name of my religious order would be the "Daughters of God." 

 

 

:saint:

 

 

 

 

Until I realized that would make my initials "D.O.G."

 

  :lol4:

 

 

 

I figured no one would ever join me, and I wanted to live alone anyway, so I would be the only member.  So therefore I would be God's Only Daughter.  Initials:  G.O.D. 

 

 

 

 

That pretty much ended my aspirations of starting my own religious community. 

 

:giveup:

Too Funny!!!!

[PhuturePriest]

Tradional/modern
Habit/non-habit
Monastic-contemplative/apostolic activity
Community living/off-site
Mind-body health issues allowed/not allowed
Higher education requirement/not a factor
Spirituality
Means of supporting the community
Family members visits,letter writing,use of technology
Permit pets/no pets (not referring to animals used for food or products-cheese etc)
Why would your community attract women and or men (of all ages)
What makes it stand out
Located in the city/outskirts

Of course, as founder of community-it will be "a living sign of the primacy of the love of God who works wonders, and of the love for God and for one's brothers and sisters as manifested and practiced by Jesus Christ" While this is meant only to be a stimulating imagination fun activity... It also helps to keep in mind what discerning one's possible vocation is about. Suggested reading- Fraternal Life In Community ("Congregavit nos in unum Christi amor") www. Vatican.va/roman_curia/congregation fraternal life in community_en.htm

 

1) Traditional

2) Habits without question

3) Active and contemplative

4) Community living would be a must

5) It would depend on the mind and body issues specifically

6) Higher education wouldn't matter unless you wanted to be a Priest

7) Most likely a glorious fusion of Dominican and Franciscan spiritualities

8) We would live off donations and by speaking at conferences and such

9) Family members would be allowed to visit, as well as written letters and limited technology

10) There might be a community dog or cat (Most likely a German Shepherd or Labrador if it's up to me)

11) It would attract men and women because hopefully we would be attractive in our holy lifestyle and work

12) It would stand out because it would be the only community in the diocese

13) And it would likely be just outside of town.

[nikita92]

Thank you Sister Marie for your input! No worries. I can appreciate both sides. ;) The priest I was referring to is Fr. Dwight Longnecker. He was featured in our Catholic newspaper. He is on the Internet. You can Google him if you wish to.

[Antigonos]

If I may be both pragmatic, and iconoclastic, and combine several threads:

 

As a 67 year old Jew, I see the issue of both older vocations and founding new orders or communities from an angle.  It is a different topic, which I won't go into here, but in a real spiritual sense, there are some similarities between my tradition and those in religious life in that we both adhere to a Holy Rule which defines every area of existence, or I wouldn't have the chutzpah to comment.  I find the comments of those who want religious life but are finding the options extremely limited very thought-provoking.

 

Historically, convents often offered older pious women accomodation without demanding that they take the same vows as the sisters.  These women usually had independent [although usually limited] means.  They participated, to a degree, in the life of the community, but not entirely.  In The Nun's Story, mention is made of one who dressed in a sort of habit or uniform [black] and did small tasks for the nuns, chaperoned them when necessary, etc.  and certainly it was a kind of common practice in periods when it was regarded as unsafe or immoral for single women to live on their own [like the Middle Ages].  In a way, they were "extern sisters" for the extern sisters.  Since they paid their way, they were no drain on the community's resources yet they were able to improve their spiritual lives.

 

So, I think, that the problem of the older vocation, with the dilemmas it causes [older women more set in their ways and unable to adapt sufficiently to community life, health issues, causing too much expense for the community, etc. ] might well be addressed by a sort of "third order" [or fourth, or fifth :-)] as an adjunct to an existing community rather than attempting a new community entirely.  In a cloistered community they might eat and pray with the community but have a separate wing with slightly more comfortable accomodation than the sisters', or have a certain degree of latitude as regards leaving the enclosure [with permission] or receiving family visits.

 

I take this idea mainly  from a Jewish practice [although I am reminded of the Mantellata].  We have two kinds of converts: the "righteous convert" [ger tzedek] and the "resident alien" [ger toshav].  The former converts entirely to Judaism, and is indistinguishable in Jewish Law from someone born a Jew.  The latter lives the life of a Jew to all intents and purposes without formal conversion -- keeps kosher, prays, keeps the holidays and other religious practices etc. but does not undergo circumcision or immersion in a ritual bath.  The distinction arose during periods when it was dangerous and/or illegal for someone to formally convert.  [There are various implications of either status in Jewish Law which are irrelevant to this discussion] 

 

Any thoughts, especially from the older discerners?  Of course, I would expect such a radical proposal would have to have backing from very high authorities, and that might be problematic in itself.

[Antigonos]

If I may be both pragmatic, and iconoclastic, and combine several threads:

 

As a 67 year old Jew, I see the issue of both older vocations and founding new orders or communities from an angle.  It is a different topic, which I won't go into here, but in a real spiritual sense, there are some similarities between my tradition and those in religious life in that we both adhere to a Holy Rule which defines every area of existence, or I wouldn't have the chutzpah to comment.  I find the comments of those who want religious life but are finding the options extremely limited very thought-provoking.

 

Historically, convents often offered older pious women accomodation without demanding that they take the same vows as the sisters.  These women usually had independent [although usually limited] means.  They participated, to a degree, in the life of the community, but not entirely.  In The Nun's Story, mention is made of one who dressed in a sort of habit or uniform [black] and did small tasks for the nuns, chaperoned them when necessary, etc.  and certainly it was a kind of common practice in periods when it was regarded as unsafe or immoral for single women to live on their own [like the Middle Ages].  In a way, they were "extern sisters" for the extern sisters.  Since they paid their way, they were no drain on the community's resources yet they were able to improve their spiritual lives.

 

So, I think, that the problem of the older vocation, with the dilemmas it causes [older women more set in their ways and unable to adapt sufficiently to community life, health issues, causing too much expense for the community, etc. ] might well be addressed by a sort of "third order" [or fourth, or fifth :-)] as an adjunct to an existing community rather than attempting a new community entirely.  In a cloistered community they might eat and pray with the community but have a separate wing with slightly more comfortable accomodation than the sisters', or have a certain degree of latitude as regards leaving the enclosure [with permission] or receiving family visits.

 

I take this idea mainly  from a Jewish practice [although I am reminded of the Mantellata].  We have two kinds of converts: the "righteous convert" [ger tzedek] and the "resident alien" [ger toshav].  The former converts entirely to Judaism, and is indistinguishable in Jewish Law from someone born a Jew.  The latter lives the life of a Jew to all intents and purposes without formal conversion -- keeps kosher, prays, keeps the holidays and other religious practices etc. but does not undergo circumcision or immersion in a ritual bath.  The distinction arose during periods when it was dangerous and/or illegal for someone to formally convert.  [There are various implications of either status in Jewish Law which are irrelevant to this discussion] 

 

Any thoughts, especially from the older discerners?  Of course, I would expect such a radical proposal would have to have backing from very high authorities, and that might be problematic in itself.

[maximillion]

The practice you mention, Antigonos, is still alive and kicking, if not very widespread.

 

One thinks of Sr Wendy Becket (attached to Quidenham I believe), and I am sure there must be others.

 

In my community we had two such, both were widows, lived on the premises, did not come into the Enclosure, but did various jobs around the place and ate and prayed with the externs.

 

I agree it would be good to promote the notion.

[Totally Franciscan]

The best essay on age discrimination in religious life has been written by Fr. David of the Franciscan Brothers Minor.  He asks that his post not be reposted to another website without permission, so I cannot give the link here.  However, go to the website of the Franciscan Brothers Minor and click on Discernment.  Scroll down to Discernment Part X Age Discrimination.  The first time I read it I had tears in my eyes - finally, someone gets it! 

 

Sr. Marie, thank you for your post pointing out the difference between older men (priests) and the vow of poverty.  It makes sense, but I am somewhat confused about your comments about communities of women who could not take older vocations due to not being able to take care of them in the future, presumably from a health standpoint.  Every community's young sisters will be old some day, so a community must have a plan in place to take care of them.  If a candidate can fulfill all the requirements of a community except age, why couldn't they be accepted?  If the community has a teaching apostolate, then a candidate should have a college degree.  Most women these days have a degree. 

 

We all are seeing many communities spring up with the express purpose of allowing older women a place to live out their God-given religious vocation.  The Visitandines have been doing it for decades with success.  In the UK, it is quite common for older women to be accepted.  Perhaps God is saying that it is time to open wide the doors and have faith that God calls when and where He wills. 

[beatitude]

The practice you mention, Antigonos, is still alive and kicking, if not very widespread.

 

One thinks of Sr Wendy Becket (attached to Quidenham I believe), and I am sure there must be others.

 

In my community we had two such, both were widows, lived on the premises, did not come into the Enclosure, but did various jobs around the place and ate and prayed with the externs.

 

I agree it would be good to promote the notion.

 

Sister Wendy wanted to be a nun ever since she was a little girl and she entered the School Sisters of Notre Dame straight out of high school, as a teenager, as these were the only sisters she had known and she wasn't aware of the distinction between apostolic and contemplative life. She was professed there as Sister Michael of St Peter. She realised after some years as a teacher than her vocation was to contemplative life, and eremitical contemplative life at that. Her superiors and bishop supported her in this. When she looked about for a place for her hermitage, the nuns at Quidenham offered to allow her to place a caravan in a secluded woodland on their property. She goes up to the Carmel for daily Mass, which she hears from an alcove; one Carmelite sister is assigned to leave some food out for her in the pantry, and collect her mail. But she does not assist them in the way that Antigonos described. They respect her eremiticism completely, and she isn't living this life purely because she is an older woman - she has a calling to be a hermit.

[savvy]

In the Jerusalem community That I previously discerned with had consecrated lay members who followed the same lifestyle , joined the sisters for prayer, meals on feast days etc. One of them lived in an apartment next to the convent. They also had regular jobs outside. This community does not have an apostolate, but in ones that do, the lay members would also help in their mission. The community I am going to join is also going to have lay members, help them in their mission etc. Most of them so far are teachers who work at the school and are interested. Lay members can be married, single, or widowed.

[Kateri89]

Fun topic!  :bananarap:

 

Okay here is mine:

 

Missionary Order

Rule of St. Francis

Name: Franciscan Sisters of the Infant Jesus

Habit: White with a light blue scapular (Marian style :saint2: ), light blue veil, sandals, and a simple wooden crucifix necklace

Apostolate: Establishing homes for unwanted/orphaned/disabled children in impoverished nations

Special Devotions: Daily Eucharistic holy hour, daily Rosary, Divine Mercy Chaplet every Friday at 3pm, total Marian consecration.

Visits: Families could visit one week a year for actual one-on-one time but they could also come any time to serve as lay missionaries.

Communication: 1 letter per month

Finances: Good ol' fashioned Franciscan begging

Patron saints: St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Gianna, St. Josemaria Escriva

 

I forget the rest of the OP's list of details but this is what I came up with :nun2:

 

[Gabriela]

It is a different topic, which I won't go into here, but in a real spiritual sense, there are some similarities between my tradition and those in religious life in that we both adhere to a Holy Rule which defines every area of existence, or I wouldn't have the chutzpah to comment.  I find the comments of those who want religious life but are finding the options extremely limited very thought-provoking.

 

It's so funny that you mention this, Antigonos, because I have often thought that God brought me to Christ through Orthodox Judaism in order to teach me discipline so that I can survive in religious life.  rotfl 

 

(I'm serious, though.)

[PhuturePriest]

SrKateri brings up some more in-depth questions that got me thinking.

Habits: I think for a habit we would have something almost exactly like the Dominican Friar habit, except we would have a deep blue cappa instead of a black one, and possibly a cord rather than a belt (Dominican Friars wear belts, for some of you female discerners that might not know). I always thought that would be a really nice color blend.

Name: Friars of the Blessed Virgin.

Apostolate: Preaching in parishes, hospitals and conferences primarily, as well as doing community work, including helping refurbish nearby parishes

Special Devotions: Daily Rosary (A must), Eucharistic Holy Hour, and the Chaplet of Divine Mercy every day at 3:00 before the Blessed Sacrament.

Patron Saints: Saint Dominic, (Soon-to-be) Saint Pope John Paul the Great, and Saint Therese of Lisieux.

 

It will be quite the diverse community. :P

Edited July 7, 2013 by FuturePriest387

[Sister Marie]

Sr. Marie, thank you for your post pointing out the difference between older men (priests) and the vow of poverty.  It makes sense, but I am somewhat confused about your comments about communities of women who could not take older vocations due to not being able to take care of them in the future, presumably from a health standpoint.  Every community's young sisters will be old some day, so a community must have a plan in place to take care of them.  If a candidate can fulfill all the requirements of a community except age, why couldn't they be accepted?  If the community has a teaching apostolate, then a candidate should have a college degree.  Most women these days have a degree. 

 

We all are seeing many communities spring up with the express purpose of allowing older women a place to live out their God-given religious vocation.  The Visitandines have been doing it for decades with success.  In the UK, it is quite common for older women to be accepted.  Perhaps God is saying that it is time to open wide the doors and have faith that God calls when and where He wills. 

 

All - I'm sorry this is a little off topic but I still wanted to answer Totally Franciscan... and if you want to discuss this further, I would be happy to in another thread. :)

 

I'm glad that my comments about the differences between diocesan priesthood and religious life were helpful.  It is for this reason that I always hope that women discerning are able to find a spiritual director who is a religious (male or female) rather than a diocesan priest.  There are so many differences it is sometimes very hard to navigate!

 

A healthcare standpoint is certainly part of the reason some communities wouldn't be able to care for older vocations.  I can't speak for every community because I don't know all their inner workings, but, without being too specific, the way I understand things in my own community is as follows.  Most communities right now are dealing with the problem of having many older sisters and a small percentage of younger sisters.  In my own community we have had conversations and have planned for the period of time where there will be the largest number of sisters in the age range where they will need nursing care.  While you can't predict specifics, we have identified the years in which there will be a large number of sisters, who due to age and health, will need extra care which will require money.  In an oversimplification, the way we pay for this is through the salaries earned by younger sisters who are able to hold full time positions in our apostolate of education.  We have planned to use our resources very carefully with the number of sisters we know will need this care especially during the period when those very large "bands" of sisters are in retirement age.  Adding to that group by accepting older women would add to the number of sisters that will need care. 

 

As a young sister, yes, I will need care in the future.  However, at the time in my life when I need that skilled care, there will be a much smaller number of older sisters who will need to be taken care of than there are now.  The money I make now as a sister in a full time apostolic position helps pay for those sisters who need care now and to subsidize my own care in the future.

 

I agree that many women have college degrees now but lets use an apostolate of education as an example.  The number of older women who have a degree in education and want to discern religious life is probably not that high (This is only from my own personal experience in which I haven't met any women who fit this description - not to say there aren't any, but I don't think that they are that numerous).  For the sake of this conversation though, lets say there is a fifty year old woman who is a teacher who wants to discern.  First, she will fall into that very large number of sisters who will most likely need to use the limited resources of the community for healthcare all at the same time.  Second, for how many years will she have the stamina to work full time and be a sister full time? By the time she makes final vows she will be at least 58...  I barely have the stamina in my 20s to do the work of my community... I can't imagine how I will feel by the time I am 50.  I wake up at 430 every day and work (whether in school or the convent) until 9 or 10 each night.  Third, education is a continually growing field... more and more higher degrees are needed to compete in the job market, religious or not...While I'm working full time I'm studying for a Masters degree in education as well. 

 

Could it be that acceptance of older vocations is an issue of charism?  I know I don't have all the answers but I definitely think there are a lot of issues with apostolate and charism that change the ability of a community to accept older vocations.  There are types of religious life that are more conducive to an older vocation - more contemplative forms of religious life come to mind immediately (like the Visitandines as you mentioned earlier!)  Full participation in the charism of those communities rests more on the spiritual and communal aspects of religious life than on an active apostolate like education.  In my community, education is a fundamental part of our apostolic religious life. 

 

Again, I don't have all the answers and I accept that it could be that God is calling us to be more open than we are.  I just want to offer too the practical considerations that communities have to take into account when making decisions about admitting women to entrance.  In my own opinion, it would be much easier to accept older women into religious life in a community that is more contemplative than professionally active.  Even active communities that do a work that doesn't require extensive education have more potential to be a possibility for older women. 

 

I hope some of this was helpful.  Again... I know I don't have the answers... but I do have information.  I hope it is helpful and I hope that even if  you don't agree with me, you have added a different perspective to your understanding of this issue.

 

Prayers!

Edited July 7, 2013 by Sister Marie

[Totally Franciscan]

Thank you, Sr. Marie, and yes your information has helped my perspective on the issue.  I also agree that charism of a contemplative community is probably more conducive to accepting older vocations.  Hopefully, with God's grace, more contemplative communities will see the wisdom of admitting older vocations.  If God calls, there must be a place for them.  The trick is to find that place!  God bless!

[Sister Marie]

Thank you, Sr. Marie, and yes your information has helped my perspective on the issue.  I also agree that charism of a contemplative community is probably more conducive to accepting older vocations.  Hopefully, with God's grace, more contemplative communities will see the wisdom of admitting older vocations.  If God calls, there must be a place for them.  The trick is to find that place!  God bless!

 

Thanks Totally Franciscan... I agree  with you that finding the place is definitely the trick... as it is with anyone discerning religious life!!!!  I know that God has not called me to a contemplative vocation... I bet there would be a reason for them to not accept me regardless of age!!!  God's will be done!  Know you are in my prayers!  SM

[Antigonos]

The problem of how to cope with elderly sisters who will need substantive assistance reminds me of the ways the Israeli kibbutzim have developed over time.  They usually have a larger pool of young people to draw on than today's religious communities do, but a lot of young people do not have the temperament, patience, or knowledge to take care of very elderly and incapacitated members.  Knowledge is actually the easiest part.  Most kibbutzim have several women who are professional nurses but have chosen not to work outside the kibbutz while their children are growing up; some kibbutzim actually have a resident doctor [who "rents" his accomodation from the kibbutz, often a retiree].  Usually at least one member is willing to study dietetics in order to be able to concoct special diets [not everyone who needs a special diet is elderly, after all!]  Houses can be modified for those with limited mobility and intercoms installed so aid can be summoned easily, and so on.  In some cases, a group of teenagers takes it in turn to spend nights with a bedridden member, for security.

 

But the big thing, it has been discovered, is to prevent isolation and to keep the elderly member feeling useful, even when the "work" he or she can do is really more symbolic than anything else.  There isn't ever any complete "retirement" for members.  I remember, on one kibbutz, watching an absolutely ancient crone hobbling with her cane from one trash can to another, filling a shopping cart with recyclable items she found.  This seemed to me to be evidence of kibbutz neglect, and rather humiliating.  I was told that she had had terrible experiences during the Holocaust, had never been quite right in the head ever since, and had been sorting the trash ever since liberated from the camps and brought to Israel.  Initially attempts had been made to find her more "respectable" work, but then the members realized that, after the privations of the War years, this was an obsession of hers, so they transformed it into her "job".  She was happy.  No one tried to dissuade her; she "worked" when she felt well enough [and actually found a lot of recyclables].  I compared this with what I had seen in some old age homes where the "inmates" had nothing to do all day but watch TV, and realized it was a good alternative.  "From each according to one's ability; to each according to need".

 

Some of the posts seem to emphasize the aspects of a community that I think are really externals, such as habit.  While I think the habit is a form of witness, and like it [if it isn't extreme -- some of the old ones were truly penitential I suspect], that seems to me to be a very low priority in forming a community.

[nikita92]

Thank you all for your input! I love to read what others perspective is on various topics and areas of interest! I have been educated and learned quite abit! It is wonderful when we can all come together and bounce ideas, thoughts and insights off of each other! SRKATERI- you made me smile mentioning this was a "fun topic" ;) Antigonos- Thank you for your "Chutzpah ! ;))

[Gabriela]

The problem of how to cope with elderly sisters who will need substantive assistance reminds me of the ways the Israeli kibbutzim have developed over time.  They usually have a larger pool of young people to draw on than today's religious communities do, but a lot of young people do not have the temperament, patience, or knowledge to take care of very elderly and incapacitated members.  Knowledge is actually the easiest part.  Most kibbutzim have several women who are professional nurses but have chosen not to work outside the kibbutz while their children are growing up; some kibbutzim actually have a resident doctor [who "rents" his accomodation from the kibbutz, often a retiree].  Usually at least one member is willing to study dietetics in order to be able to concoct special diets [not everyone who needs a special diet is elderly, after all!]  Houses can be modified for those with limited mobility and intercoms installed so aid can be summoned easily, and so on.  In some cases, a group of teenagers takes it in turn to spend nights with a bedridden member, for security.

 

But the big thing, it has been discovered, is to prevent isolation and to keep the elderly member feeling useful, even when the "work" he or she can do is really more symbolic than anything else.  There isn't ever any complete "retirement" for members.  I remember, on one kibbutz, watching an absolutely ancient crone hobbling with her cane from one trash can to another, filling a shopping cart with recyclable items she found.  This seemed to me to be evidence of kibbutz neglect, and rather humiliating.  I was told that she had had terrible experiences during the Holocaust, had never been quite right in the head ever since, and had been sorting the trash ever since liberated from the camps and brought to Israel.  Initially attempts had been made to find her more "respectable" work, but then the members realized that, after the privations of the War years, this was an obsession of hers, so they transformed it into her "job".  She was happy.  No one tried to dissuade her; she "worked" when she felt well enough [and actually found a lot of recyclables].  I compared this with what I had seen in some old age homes where the "inmates" had nothing to do all day but watch TV, and realized it was a good alternative.  "From each according to one's ability; to each according to need".

 

Some of the posts seem to emphasize the aspects of a community that I think are really externals, such as habit.  While I think the habit is a form of witness, and like it [if it isn't extreme -- some of the old ones were truly penitential I suspect], that seems to me to be a very low priority in forming a community.

 

I am really glad that you're on PM, Antigonos. :-)

[Antigonos]

I am really glad that you're on PM, Antigonos. :-)

 

Thank you.  I am always somewhat hesitant to weigh in on matters that could be interpreted to be doctrinal.  But since I belong to a tradition that does NOT regard withdrawal from the world to be a path to spiritual improvement, nor one which raises celibacy or consecrated virginity to a virtue, but instead regards marriage as a "given" for the human condition, and spiritual striving is to be within both the framework of everyday life and with other people [the most salient example I can think of is that the central prayer of any Jewish prayer service is a prayer which is said by each individual silently yet is not recited at all unless a quorum of 10 is present], the contrasts are not only fascinating, but I think I might have a slightly more objective viewpoint -- looking in the window, so to speak, instead of being in the room. Perhaps that adds something to the discussion.