Paganism In Catholicism

[Gabriela]

I have a brother who is pretty anti-Christian, and this weekend we went on a 4-hour drive together. Guess what he brought up. I tried to explain that it is true that Catholicism adapts explanations of dogma/doctrine, worship style, and other such things to local cultures, but that there's a line the Church won't cross and sometimes indigenous beliefs/practices just have to go in order to make room for consistent, coherent belief in and worship of Christ. He launched instances of "paganism in Catholicism" at me as if we were having a spitball fight. I didn't know enough history of the Church to explain every single one of them, but obviously some of them were just stupid. Still, there's the Christmas tree to explain, and why Christmas is in December right around the Winter Solstice. It's obvious that the bunnies and eggs he brought up are just secular (pagan) add-ons to what was once a properly Christian celebration. He objected to the word "Easter" as pagan; I explained the proper term for the holiday is from the Hebrew "Pessach".

 

I don't expect that I'll ever be able to satisfy or convince someone who just wants to hate Christianity and is constantly looking for reasons to do so. But I would like to be better prepared for this next time it comes up.

 

Can anyone help explain these things to me, so that I might explain them to my brother? (Please don't recommend books. I already read most of my life away!)

 

Thank you in advance! :-)

[Era Might]

If he hates Christianity, why does he care whether Christianity has adopted pagan elements? Knowing what his motivation is might make it easier to discuss.

[Basilisa Marie]

You're right that Catholicism often adapts they way we explain things to local cultures - we call that "inculturation" now, and you can find explicit references to it in some Vatican II documents.  Of course missionaries are going to use local beliefs and customs to explain Christianity. To do otherwise is ridiculous, and you wouldn't get anyone to understand you. It's more like using an analogy than actually incorporating beliefs into Catholicism.  

 

You just have to check out the wikipedia page for the history of the Christmas Tree. Even though people have been thinking trees are special and symbolic since probably the beginning of time, the use of Christmas Trees is a pretty Christian thing. Evergreen trees symbolize eternal life in most places where they grow.  Who brings eternal life for Christians? Jesus.  It's a very weak association with pagans, at best.  Same thing with Christmas. The ties are ambiguous at best, and so what if they chose the date to correlate with a similar time when everyone else was partying? It makes it easier for Christians to celebrate when everyone else is.  Seriously, these are pretty terrible arguments to make against Christianity.  Even wikipedia doesn't offer much support for his position.  

 

Eggs and rabbits are associated with new life.  It only makes sense to associate them with the Resurrection.  :)

 

Sounds to me like it really just isn't worth trying to argue with him.  He sounds determined to just "hate on" Christianity and isn't open to see reason or even to change his mind.  You're probably better off praying for him, and trying to be a good example of an intelligent, loving Christian in your daily life.  :)  Then when he DOES decide to come around, he'll be more likely to ask you questions. 

[Socrates]

I have a brother who is pretty anti-Christian, and this weekend we went on a 4-hour drive together. Guess what he brought up. I tried to explain that it is true that Catholicism adapts explanations of dogma/doctrine, worship style, and other such things to local cultures, but that there's a line the Church won't cross and sometimes indigenous beliefs/practices just have to go in order to make room for consistent, coherent belief in and worship of Christ. He launched instances of "paganism in Catholicism" at me as if we were having a spitball fight. I didn't know enough history of the Church to explain every single one of them, but obviously some of them were just stupid. Still, there's the Christmas tree to explain, and why Christmas is in December right around the Winter Solstice. It's obvious that the bunnies and eggs he brought up are just secular (pagan) add-ons to what was once a properly Christian celebration. He objected to the word "Easter" as pagan; I explained the proper term for the holiday is from the Hebrew "Pessach".

 

I don't expect that I'll ever be able to satisfy or convince someone who just wants to hate Christianity and is constantly looking for reasons to do so. But I would like to be better prepared for this next time it comes up.

 

Can anyone help explain these things to me, so that I might explain them to my brother? (Please don't recommend books. I already read most of my life away!)

 

Thank you in advance! :-)

 

If Christmas trees and Easter eggs are the best "arguments" against Christianity your brother can come up with, quite frankly, he's an idiot.

 

How on earth are these customs supposed to disprove Christian belief?

 

Those things are practices and customs coming from Germany and Russia and the Ukraine, respectively, and are not actually universal, even if popular in the U.S., and are not beliefs, nor are they required practices of the Christian Faith

 

Even if the practices of decorating trees and eggs may have pre-Christian origins, they do not change or effect Christian dogma, and had nothing to do with the origin of the Christian Faith.

 

Same with the correlation of the time of Christmas with winter solstice celebration.  It's mere hypothesis that this is the reason for the timing of the Christmas celebration (I have plenty of family members born around that time, and their birthday has absolutely nothing to do with pagan solstice festivities.)

And if Christians chose to replace pagan celebrations with Christian ones, or give Christian meaning to local pagan customs after the population converted, it does nothing to prove that Christianity is false, or that it originally came from paganism.

 

Just dumb and sloppy.

[qfnol31]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BNGd-luPlg[/media]

 

The dating of Christmas was mostly likely not determined by when it falls during winter. Instead, the date was most likely determined by when Christ's conception took place, which falls around the same time of year as His death (and sometimes even on the same day). The idea that it was set to coincide with the winter solstice has less proof than the early documents celebrating His conception.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

If Christmas trees and Easter eggs are the best "arguments" against Christianity your brother can come up with, quite frankly, he's an idiot.

 

... That's uncalled for. It's her brother you're talking about. 

 

 

 

 

How on earth are these customs supposed to disprove Christian belief?

 

 

He might be confusing the customs Christianity adopted from the pagans they converted with the striking similarity between some biblical stories, including the life of Christ, and pagan mythology. 

Edited July 19, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Apotheoun]

If Christmas trees and Easter eggs are the best "arguments" against Christianity your brother can come up with, quite frankly, he's an idiot.

 

How on earth are these customs supposed to disprove Christian belief?

 

Those things are practices and customs coming from Germany and Russia and the Ukraine, respectively, and are not actually universal, even if popular in the U.S., and are not beliefs, nor are they required practices of the Christian Faith

 

Even if the practices of decorating trees and eggs may have pre-Christian origins, they do not change or effect Christian dogma, and had nothing to do with the origin of the Christian Faith.

 

Same with the correlation of the time of Christmas with winter solstice celebration.  It's mere hypothesis that this is the reason for the timing of the Christmas celebration (I have plenty of family members born around that time, and their birthday has absolutely nothing to do with pagan solstice festivities.)

And if Christians chose to replace pagan celebrations with Christian ones, or give Christian meaning to local pagan customs after the population converted, it does nothing to prove that Christianity is false, or that it originally came from paganism.

 

Just dumb and sloppy.

Another great post by Socrates.  +1

[Gabriela]

You're right that Catholicism often adapts they way we explain things to local cultures - we call that "inculturation" now, and you can find explicit references to it in some Vatican II documents.  Of course missionaries are going to use local beliefs and customs to explain Christianity. To do otherwise is ridiculous, and you wouldn't get anyone to understand you. It's more like using an analogy than actually incorporating beliefs into Catholicism.  

 

You just have to check out the wikipedia page for the history of the Christmas Tree. Even though people have been thinking trees are special and symbolic since probably the beginning of time, the use of Christmas Trees is a pretty Christian thing. Evergreen trees symbolize eternal life in most places where they grow.  Who brings eternal life for Christians? Jesus.  It's a very weak association with pagans, at best.  Same thing with Christmas. The ties are ambiguous at best, and so what if they chose the date to correlate with a similar time when everyone else was partying? It makes it easier for Christians to celebrate when everyone else is.  Seriously, these are pretty terrible arguments to make against Christianity.  Even wikipedia doesn't offer much support for his position.  

 

Eggs and rabbits are associated with new life.  It only makes sense to associate them with the Resurrection.   :)

 

Sounds to me like it really just isn't worth trying to argue with him.  He sounds determined to just "hate on" Christianity and isn't open to see reason or even to change his mind.  You're probably better off praying for him, and trying to be a good example of an intelligent, loving Christian in your daily life.   :)  Then when he DOES decide to come around, he'll be more likely to ask you questions. 

 

You're right. He doesn't really care to hear what Christians actually believe. He just wants to bash Christians in front of one. We don't really debate things. He bashes and I correct. He bashes more. I correct more. He makes an actual argument that relies 100% on the unfounded assumption there is no God, and I point out that there is as much evidence for the existence of God as against it, that you can only prove the existence of a thing, not its non-existence, etc. He acts like he doesn't understand that everything he says assumes there is no God rather than actually arguing for that claim.

 

It is totally pointless. I just don't know how to extract myself from such "conversations" because he just drones on and on excitedly about how stupid Christianity is. I've thought a long time about how to approach this and this last trip, my approach was to listen patiently, point out whatever grain of truth was in what he said and agree with that, then point out how wrong everything else was. The fact that I did this without getting angry or frustrated or condescending was, I thought, a step up. But clearly he just wanted to get a rise out of me, because the calmer I was, the more animated (and offensive) he got. Finally he lost control when he said that Christians have killed a bunch of people; when I asked, "Who?", he replied, "You know, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Nazis." "Right," I said, "The Nazis were really Christian. Get your history straight. You screwed up there."

 

I suppose it would be better for me to simply sit quietly and let him pour out his hatred over me without saying anything at all, since that's clearly what he wants to do. If anyone has tips for dealing with this kind of person, I'd appreciate hearing it. Of course, there's family relationship baggage crap that goes with all of this. So I'd be grateful to hear a variety of different opinions on how to best handle such encounters in the future. (The hardest part, of course, is that he insists he's having a civilized, reasoned debate, even though he attacks everything I say before I even finish saying it. Then if I cut off conversation or get snippy at him for interrupting, it's because I "can't handle people disagreeing with my religion". It's clear he's not out to learn anything. He's out to spew his venom.)

[Gabriela]

 

... That's uncalled for. It's her brother you're talking about. 

 

He might be confusing the customs Christianity adopted from the pagans they converted with the striking similarity between some biblical stories, including the life of Christ, and pagan mythology. 

 

I appreciate the chivalric gesture. :-)

 

And yes, the parallels between the life of Christ and those of pagan myths is something he brings up often.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

It is totally pointless. I just don't know how to extract myself from such "conversations" because he just drones on and on excitedly about how stupid Christianity is. I've thought a long time about how to approach this and this last trip, my approach was to listen patiently, point out whatever grain of truth was in what he said and agree with that, then point out how wrong everything else was. The fact that I did this without getting angry or frustrated or condescending was, I thought, a step up. But clearly he just wanted to get a rise out of me, because the calmer I was, the more animated (and offensive) he got. Finally he lost control when he said that Christians have killed a bunch of people; when I asked, "Who?", he replied, "You know, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Nazis." "Right," I said, "The Nazis were really Christian. Get your history straight. You screwed up there."

 

Meh. If he's doing this just to get you mad, I wouldn't let it get to you. It seems his position relies on the idea that religion poisons everything. Religion is responsible for both good and bad. I dislike it when people ignore this fact. 

 

 I suppose it would be better for me to simply sit quietly and let him pour out his hatred over me without saying anything at all, since that's clearly what he wants to do. If anyone has tips for dealing with this kind of person, I'd appreciate hearing it. Of course, there's family relationship baggage croutons that goes with all of this. So I'd be grateful to hear a variety of different opinions on how to best handle such encounters in the future. (The hardest part, of course, is that he insists he's having a civilized, reasoned debate, even though he attacks everything I say before I even finish saying it. Then if I cut off conversation or get snippy at him for interrupting, it's because I "can't handle people disagreeing with my religion". It's clear he's not out to learn anything. He's out to spew his venom.)

 

1. Don't let him get to you. Think of his rudeness as a personality fault that he has trouble controlling. 

2. This might only be useful in public... When he interrupts you, don't keep talking. Let him interrupt. During a tv interview, whenever a guy is cut off continuously by the host, I keep thinking to myself, JUST LET HIM FINISH, regardless of whose side I'm on. The people around will get turned off by the way he's speaking to you. And you won't feel bad about being unpleasant. 

3. Talk to him privately about how you feel. Do this at your own discretion.

4. You can offer to watch an atheist vs. christian debate with him every time he brings up the topic. This might scare him into not talking to you about it again (they're pretty long). 

[Basilisa Marie]

Hmmm....have you ever tried telling him something like how you don't mind talking about religion or having conversations about it, but you'd appreciate it if he didn't just come at you with a torrent of negative things about your religion? Or like, ask him why he does that?   I mean, he's your brother.  He probably cares about you, at least on some level. :) Maybe he'll knock it off a bit if you let him know how it makes you feel.   Just a guess. 

[CatherineM]

I watched a video last night about the Incans. On feast days, they used to parade the mummified bodies of their dead kings through the streets. Missionaries changed that to the Corpus Christi procession. Nothing wrong with that. A good idea is a good idea.

[Gabriela]

Hmmm....have you ever tried telling him something like how you don't mind talking about religion or having conversations about it, but you'd appreciate it if he didn't just come at you with a torrent of negative things about your religion? Or like, ask him why he does that?   I mean, he's your brother.  He probably cares about you, at least on some level. :) Maybe he'll knock it off a bit if you let him know how it makes you feel.   Just a guess. 

 

This is the brother with whom I did not speak for 10 years, and we are only just now beginning to build some semblance of a relationship again. My concern is that if I cut off any conversation he'll think I don't want to have a conversation at all, or that I don't accept him as he is. That being said, he obviously doesn't accept me as I am. The difference, I guess, is that I'm a Christian and can imbue my suffering with meaning. He is a Buddhist, so his suffering is pointless. :-P

[Gabriela]

Hmmm....have you ever tried telling him something like how you don't mind talking about religion or having conversations about it, but you'd appreciate it if he didn't just come at you with a torrent of negative things about your religion? Or like, ask him why he does that?   I mean, he's your brother.  He probably cares about you, at least on some level. :) Maybe he'll knock it off a bit if you let him know how it makes you feel.   Just a guess. 

 

Under normal circumstances, this would be good advice. :-) But this is the brother with whom I did not speak for 10 years, and we are only just now beginning to build some semblance of a relationship again. My concern is that if I cut off any conversation he'll think I don't want to have a conversation at all, or that I don't accept him as he is. That being said, he obviously doesn't accept me as I am. The difference, I guess, is that I'm a Christian and can imbue my suffering with meaning and purpose. He is a Buddhist, so his suffering is pointless. :-P

 

In short: This relationship is really sensitive to discord right now. And apparently he thinks that his offensive belittling of my religion is not discordant. But the second I mention that it is, I have created discord. Know what I mean? "No one is offensive until someone gets offended."

 

If the relationship lasts long enough for it to get stronger and really stand on its own, I will certainly do this one day. But today is definitely not the day. And tomorrow won't be, either.

[Gabriela]

Hmmm....have you ever tried telling him something like how you don't mind talking about religion or having conversations about it, but you'd appreciate it if he didn't just come at you with a torrent of negative things about your religion? Or like, ask him why he does that?   I mean, he's your brother.  He probably cares about you, at least on some level. :) Maybe he'll knock it off a bit if you let him know how it makes you feel.   Just a guess. 

 

Under normal circumstances, this would be good advice. :-) But this is the brother with whom I did not speak for 10 years, and we are only just now beginning to build some semblance of a relationship again. My concern is that if I cut off any conversation he'll think I don't want to have a conversation at all, or that I don't accept him as he is. That being said, he obviously doesn't accept me as I am. The difference, I guess, is that I'm a Christian and can imbue my suffering with meaning and purpose. He is a Buddhist, so his suffering is pointless. :-P

 

In short: This relationship is really sensitive to discord right now. And apparently he thinks that his offensive belittling of my religion is not discordant. But the second I mention that it is, I have created discord. Know what I mean? "No one is offensive until someone gets offended."

 

If the relationship lasts long enough for it to get stronger and really stand on its own, I will certainly do this one day. But today is definitely not the day. And tomorrow won't be, either.