Crazy Dream, Crazy Question

[ToJesusMyHeart]

So I had a really weird dream, and I was thinking about how it would apply to real life. 

 

I know that every situation would be different, but I just am curious about your thoughts or how a community might handle such a terrible situation described below:

 

Please bear with me as I recall the most awful events of the dream.

 

I'm not going to go into huge detail because a) you probably don't care about the details and b) they're not relevant to the question I pose.

 

So in the dream a nun got raped, and as a result of the rape, became pregnant. 

 

I realize the horror and pray to God this never happens, but I am wondering what might follow if, God forbid, it did happen. 

 

Would the woman leave the convent? Is there some type of procedure for these things?

 

Understand that I'm not asking for a definitive answer, I'm just interested in your thoughts. 

 

I have the weirdest dreams...... 

 

[Lilllabettt]

Well it will be different for different communities.

I know someone who was in this situation. It's not unheard of in the developing world especially. She left because she decided she wanted to raise the baby herself, and that choice was not compatible with her form of consecrated life.

 

Some places would ask the woman, if she's not under vows, to leave the novitiate with the idea that she could return after she delivers. Professed women I imagine might be supported by the community while they are sent on sabbatical, or exclaustration. Its complicated - some habits prevent women from "showing" --- a cloistered Sister might be able to safely remain in a strictly cloistered environment etc. The only rule is charity above all, I guess.

 

[AccountDeleted]

Once again, this is a question that is answered by 'it depends on the community'. I have been in communities where I have no doubt they would send the woman away during her pregnancy and probably even put subtle pressure upon her not to return (depending on whether she was solemnly professed or not as well).But I have also been in communities where I am sure they would handle it with love and kindness, and help the woman through the situation to make her own choice. There is a lot of charity in some places, and not so much in others. Just like some families.

 

And I have read online stories about this thing actually happening in Third World countries, and it has been handled differently in different places.

[OnlySunshine]

I remember reading of a Sister who was raped in Yugoslavia and became pregnant.  She decided to raise the child as her own.  It was a difficult decision to make but she said, "The child shall be mine and no one else's."  She realized that she could put the child up for adoption and go back to being a Sister but she thought that it was better to be a mother even though the decision was forced on her (pun not intended).  Here is the letter she wrote to her Mother Superior.  It's beautiful and tragic at the same time.

 

http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_files/9700d87ecef59271ce15f9554f57fe47-436.html

[Kateri89]

I remember reading of a Sister who was raped in Yugoslavia and became pregnant.  She decided to raise the child as her own.  It was a difficult decision to make but she said, "The child shall be mine and no one else's."  She realized that she could put the child up for adoption and go back to being a Sister but she thought that it was better to be a mother even though the decision was forced on her (pun not intended).  Here is the letter she wrote to her Mother Superior.  It's beautiful and tragic at the same time.

 

http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_files/9700d87ecef59271ce15f9554f57fe47-436.html

 

I almost cried reading that letter.

[Ice_nine]

I don't think your dream was strange. I've thought about this hypothetical situation many a time, and like others have said for those who live in war-torn areas this is a real and immediate possibility.

 

 I have been in communities where I have no doubt they would send the woman away during her pregnancy and probably even put subtle pressure upon her not to return (depending on whether she was solemnly professed or not as well).

 

That's pretty disheartening. In what universe is this a Christlike action? I don't mean to be naive I know religious people aren't perfect but that course of action just doesn't make sense imho.

[AccountDeleted]

 

 

That's pretty disheartening. In what universe is this a Christlike action? I don't mean to be naive I know religious people aren't perfect but that course of action just doesn't make sense imho.

 

 

It's funny how people can rationalize their behavior- but it does happen, in the world and in convents, because we are all human. I have questioned things that have happened in convents that I know in my heart were not charitable, either to someone else or to myself, but there was always some rationalization for what happened that, on the surface, almost made sense. This is how cults can manage to control people and get them to do things that they would never in a million years do on their own. It can be a combination of 'brainwashing' and 'peer pressure' -- yes, even in Catholic institutions. If you have ever read about psychological studies that show people almost torturing other people in 'scientific experiments' you will understand what I mean. no one sets out to be unkind but sometimes the environment and group pressure create an atmosphere that is dysfunctional. I have been involved in Visitations of convents where I was living (sort of check-ups by outside people) and the report would come back saying what was wrong and needed to be changed. In some convents, they took the recommendations to heart and tried to make changes, but in others they almost got angry at being 'criticized' so instead of making any changes, they got even more locked in their attitudes. Oppressive and repressive situations in communities didn't only exist prior to Vatican 2 - they still exist in some convents to some degree even today. What looks so wonderfully perfect on the outside isn't always so healthy on the inside, and it results in a lot of neurotic behavior by those who are powerless. Sad but true.

 

But just as their are 'bad' pedophile priests, there are also many fantastically good and holy ones as well. So just as there are some dysfunctional and oppressive religious communities, there are also some wonderfully loving and holy ones too. The secret is not to tar and feather everyone with the same brush but to look for holiness where it is and to pray for it where it isn't.

[God's Beloved]

When I read the story in the link on post #4 ,  i somehow remembered a post by Barbara Therese about a month ago about something similar. Barbara , where are you ?

[Ice_nine]

I'm a psych major, so I know about Mr. Milgram ;). And I've heard straight-up horror stories from my parents/aunts/uncles who went to parochial school back in the day, so before I really came back to the faith these stories didn't really help my perception of the church or Catholic religious.

 

And needless to say that no I'm not really a fan of these ugly stories, and when I simply think about what I would do if I found myself in this situation, or if someone close to me did, I'm pretty sure it would break me and I don't know what the hell I would do.

[AccountDeleted]

I'm a psych major, so I know about Mr. Milgram ;). And I've heard straight-up horror stories from my parents/aunts/uncles who went to parochial school back in the day, so before I really came back to the faith these stories didn't really help my perception of the church or Catholic religious.

 

And needless to say that no I'm not really a fan of these ugly stories, and when I simply think about what I would do if I found myself in this situation, or if someone close to me did, I'm pretty sure it would break me and I don't know what the hell I would do.

 

 

The thing to remember is that we are ALL human beings and that any one of us is capable of hurting others. Psychological experiments show this. No one intentionally hurts another unless they have really given in to the darkness. In most cases, the person doing the hurting has rationalized their actions to themselves in some strange way or been convinced that what they are doing is somehow right.

 

There are abusive people in the world and in the Church but there are also very good, kind and holy people in both as well. For every horror story about a nun in parochial school, there is another about a Sister who has inspired and motivated someone to succeed. For every priest who has abused a child, there is another one who has been a guide and mentor and helped someone to find God. For every horrible religious superior or Novice Mistress in convents, there is one who is nurturing and kind and who sets a holy example of the life.

 

If you found yourself in a bad situation (or someone you love), then the answer is to remove yourself from the situation, report it and seek help. But the most important thing is to pray, and to ask God to help you find forgiveness in your heart for those who have hurt you. I love the quote by Mark Twain about forgiveness...   “Forgiveness: The scent left by the rose, on the heel that has crushed it.”   :love:

[Ice_nine]

yeah I mostly agree with you. Just sorta thinking really obvious thoughts out loud. :)

[arfink]

Ice_Nine, there are a number of us who have lived through experiences of being turned out of seminaries or convents. It still happens. (Not necessarily because of rape, but still....) It hurts like hell. The wounds do heal though, even if it takes a very very long time. God does manage to make good things happen from those situations, if one is open to seeing it.

Edited September 14, 2013 by arfink

[Gabriela]

What kind of sick, sick person rapes a nun? I mean, rape is bad enough by itself. But a nun?

 

It's funny how people can rationalize their behavior- but it does happen, in the world and in convents, because we are all human. I have questioned things that have happened in convents that I know in my heart were not charitable, either to someone else or to myself, but there was always some rationalization for what happened that, on the surface, almost made sense. This is how cults can manage to control people and get them to do things that they would never in a million years do on their own. It can be a combination of 'brainwashing' and 'peer pressure' -- yes, even in Catholic institutions. If you have ever read about psychological studies that show people almost torturing other people in 'scientific experiments' you will understand what I mean. no one sets out to be unkind but sometimes the environment and group pressure create an atmosphere that is dysfunctional. I have been involved in Visitations of convents where I was living (sort of check-ups by outside people) and the report would come back saying what was wrong and needed to be changed. In some convents, they took the recommendations to heart and tried to make changes, but in others they almost got angry at being 'criticized' so instead of making any changes, they got even more locked in their attitudes. Oppressive and repressive situations in communities didn't only exist prior to Vatican 2 - they still exist in some convents to some degree even today. What looks so wonderfully perfect on the outside isn't always so healthy on the inside, and it results in a lot of neurotic behavior by those who are powerless. Sad but true.

 

But just as their are 'bad' pedophile priests, there are also many fantastically good and holy ones as well. So just as there are some dysfunctional and oppressive religious communities, there are also some wonderfully loving and holy ones too. The secret is not to tar and feather everyone with the same brush but to look for holiness where it is and to pray for it where it isn't.

 

nunsense, can you give discerners any advice on how to identify a community that is unhealthy, yet looks healthy from the outside?

 

I'm a psych major, so I know about Mr. Milgram ;). 

 

Don't forget Zimbardo. ;-)

[AccountDeleted]

 

 

nunsense, can you give discerners any advice on how to identify a community that is unhealthy, yet looks healthy from the outside?

 

 

 

 

 

Not really, curiousing. Appearances can be deceiving and we can also deceive ourselves in an effort to make a dream come true. It certainly helps if we approach discernment with a lot of common sense. It's great to be idealistic and even a little romantic, but even those planning to get married are better prepared if they do a pre-marriage education course to sort out the practical areas where there might be conflict or problems.

 

There aren't any pre-entrance courses that I know of (wouldn't that be interesting) but I would recommend doing a live-in visit of several weeks or more if possible. Even that doesn't guarantee anything because, as I said in another thread, someone doing a live-in visit is treated differently than someone who is in formation. But it does give one a sense of the community that might be helpful and there isn't any stigma attached after one leaves.

 

But once the live-in is completed, it is important not to gloss over any of the problems that came to light during the visit. They don't have to be deal-breakers, but they should be addressed. Are we choosing to enter because it is the only option available to us at the time or do we really believe it is where we belong? It's all too easy to want something to work so badly that we try to make ourselves 'fit'. This is kind of like trying to fit a size 9 foot into a size 7 shoe. It can be done, but it will cripple the person who has to walk in the shoes.

 

When all is said and done though, there are no guarantees in this life. We can do everything 'right' and still make mistakes or have people treat us badly. The important thing is how we respond to what happens to us. Some women stay in the convent who shouldn't and they become bitter and resentful. Some women leave or are forced to leave the convent and they become bitter and resentful. The secret is NOT to become bitter and resentful - no matter what happens - and the way to do this is to trust implicitly in God's love for us.

 

Maybe things will work out the way we expect or want or hope - but then again, maybe they won't. That's the crunch point. For me, I usually get hurt first, then angry (it's a defense mechanism to deal with hurt). Since I usually don't know who to blame, I start by being angry at those who hurt me. Then I feel bad about this because I know I am supposed to love everyone so I get mad at myself (anger is much easier to deal with than hurt) and start to think how horrible I am.Then I get sick of feeling bad so I get angry at God and blame Him for everything - the way He allowed others to hurt me, the events that allowed the situation to happen, the way He made me the person that I am - not perfect  --- you know, the whole nine yards. Finally I usually fall apart because I don't like being mad at God - it hurts too much - when things seem at their darkest, that's when I usually start praying a lot and asking for understanding and acceptance and forgiveness - for God to forgive them, for God to forgive me, for them to forgive me, for me to forgive them, etc etc. I figure, if Jesus could forgive from the Cross, then I must be able to do it too, if I can only understand a little.

 

So I have thought about forgiveness a lot in my life. I have come to the conclusion that no one in their right mind sets out to hurt someone on purpose. They do it by accident through indifference or neglect or selfishness or ambition or greed or for many other reasons, all the product of self-love and self-interest. A person who is full of self-love hasn't made room for God's love and a community that is more focused on the exterior than the interior life hasn't made room for the Holy Spirit. This is sad, really sad. So when Jesus said 'Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.' He was able to do it because He could see that they really didn't know what they were doing and He felt sorry for them because they didn't know God's love for them. So suffering offers us the opportunity to experience the grace of forgiveness, which is a simple act of love. It doesn't mean we forget, but that we stop hurting.

 

After forgiveness, then we are clear enough to really think about the lessons that God presented to us and we can learn from our mistakes and how to avoid those particular ones in the future. We learn a little bit more about ourselves as well, what we need and what we have to offer; and we learn what is right and wrong in the way that some communities live out their religious life. They say that hindsight is 20/20- that's because we can't always see things clearly until we come out the other side.

 

I only write about all this because the point is that we can't control outcomes - only our choices and our responses to what happens. The only thing that really matters is our relationship with God. If we take care of that, He will take care of everything else. :)

[God's Beloved]

When I read the link below -a few days ago , I was S.H.A.T.T.E.R.E.D..........

 

Thought all this goes on in the dark , under cover up of Good  only in today's world in developing countries. But its been going on in Cultic fashion since the early church......... Can't swallow it......... Such things shake one's vocation to the roots.......

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/50685-the-early-christian-agapetae-or-virgins-the-cosmic-mystery-of-the-church/