How Much Austerity Can One Handle?

[Julie de Sales]

We often hear that one community is more austere than another in the way they dress, they eat, they sleep, etc. But is this an important factor in discernment? I mean, they are people like us with human needs and I don’t think someone would push too hard for fear of getting sick. I heard that after Vatican II there is more “comfort” in monasteries than before.

Can some of you, maybe those who have tried religious life before, share their experiences regarding penance/austerity inside a convent? An “officially” austere community would be comprehensive if a candidate couldn’t handle too much?

I know someone with a fragile health who entered a very strict community and she was a little afraid that it would be too difficult for her. I trust of course the discernment that she made, but we can’t really know if we can live the life before we actually try it, don’t we?

[Nunsense]

It's funny that you should post this because on another thread I have been trying to convince someone else to lighten up and they have been trying to convince me to take things more  seriously. This is similar, how much austerity is too much austerity?

 

Austerity has its place in religious life, but anything done for its own sake just doesn't make sense. The whole aim of our lives is to love God, so anything that helps us to come closer to Him and to love him more should be encouraged. In some cases, austerity might facilitate this aim, but in others it might be detrimental. This is where 'common sense is the guide to the virtues' (Rule of St Albert).

 

A person discerning needs to ask themselves why austerity in a particular place attracts them. Is it because it will help them to come closer to God or simply because it seems attractive in a medieval romantic sort of way? Some of  the saints who did practice austerities later said that they were wrong - perhaps not in their intentions, but in the intensity with which they pursued them.

 

I would say, don't focus on austerities, but if they concern you, by all means, discuss the particular ones practiced by a community that you are considering.

[EmilyAnn]

I remember watching a video from some Visitation sisters and the Mother Superior of their community said that she wouldn't have been able to handle some other forms of religious life - "I never could have done the more penitential orders" 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRSN9KyPWsg (that's the video)

 

I agree with nunsense that one shouldn't seek austerity for the sake of it. There are practices in religious life that may seem austere compared to the comforts many of us are used to. I also think it's okay to admit that there are things you wouldn't be able to deal with. Not everyone is cut out for every kind of life. One must still though keep their motives in check - it is just as easy to seek comfort for the wrong reasons as it is to seek austerity for the wrong reasons. 

[Nunsense]

It also depends on what you mean by austere. I have lived in more poverty in the world than I have in any convent, so things like washing in cold water or sitting on the floor didn't bother me if I had to do it. No two communities are exactly alike though so if something is important to you, then ask!

 

If you are going to enter a really strict Carmelite community though (1990 Constitutions) and you don't like the idea of using the discipline then this is something you should definitely ask about. If it doesn't bother you, then not to worry but if it the whole idea shocks you, then this is probably a deal breaker for you. When I entered one Carmel, it had never occurred to me to ask - then my Novice Mistress brought it into my cell one day and told me about using it. There are very few communities these days that use some of these older customs, but they do still exist. I don't consider this so much of an austerity though - it is more penitential than austere.

 

 

 

 

[maximillion]

I agree with nunsense, how much is too much, it's like asking how long is a piece of string!

 

Austerity for its own sake is not on under any circumstances.

 

Austerity as part of a rule of life - I am thinking here of the 'penitential orders' is fine, and I don't think there are many today who could not support that lifestyle. If one enters a penitential order then one would expect it to be a bit austere, no?

A Carmelite's life is one of austerity, but is it too much austerity? Maybe the only way to find out if an individual can support such a life and has the strength to do so is to try it. That is why there is Postulancy, and I doubt it is much good trying to second guess what one can and cannot deal with ahead of time.

[Nunsense]

I think you'll find that it isn't the austerity that usually causes the most problems for a person. Anyone can get used to doing without a few things. The hard parts are giving up one's independence and living in community, no matter how much one loves her sisters.

 

I think Americans are particularly conditioned to think of their individual rights ('I know my rights.') and this brings up the issue of cultural differences that can can also be a problem.

 

Problems can also be opportunities for growth though - and one has to face problems even in the world. :)

 

 

[Maire]

I remember thinking, waaay back when I first started seriously considering religious life: "Oh, I could NEVER be a Carmelite! They don't eat meat!" o_o Now that I'm older and have given more thought to the reasons for entering religious life (and have come to appreciate St. Teresa's writings), I think that not eating meat wouldn't be much of a problem. It's the interior mortification that seems the most daunting, now.

[maximillion]

Obedience......it is certainly difficult, that and living on a day to day basis with the various foibles, failings and plain humanity of ones Sisters - keeping charitable thoughts in ones head and a heart that is open is a slow mortification that crushes the self.

 

That is more difficult than all the austerities, the rooms with no heating or stiflingly hot, the lack of food and the tiredness!

 

 

Then there is LOTH, and each new day with yesterday gone, forgotten and forgiven, and one's lips praising the Beloved.

Ahhh......THEN it is worth it.

 

[Pia Jesu]

There is an excellent article entitlted "Analysis of Problems in Religious Communities Today and Some Proposed

Solutions" written by Fr. John Harden, S.J.

 

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Religious_Life/Religious_Life_035.htm

 

He addresses many of the issues raised in this discussion...including the authority of religious superiors/general

chapters and how modernity has left them oftentimes "hard-pressed to keep some members in line."  Having spent

a few years in an active community, I do recall feeling a certain pressure to conform and a bit surprised at some

of the penitential practices (standing/sitting on the floor for meals--similar to the Visitation slide show posted).

[Pia Jesu]

Obedience......it is certainly difficult, that and living on a day to day basis with the various foibles, failings and plain humanity of ones Sisters - keeping charitable thoughts in ones head and a heart that is open is a slow mortification that crushes the self.

 

That is more difficult than all the austerities, the rooms with no heating or stiflingly hot, the lack of food and the tiredness!

 

 

Then there is LOTH, and each new day with yesterday gone, forgotten and forgiven, and one's lips praising the Beloved.

Ahhh......THEN it is worth it.

 

Yes, Maximillion, some call this a "White Martyrdom."

[Gabriela]

I remember watching a video from some Visitation sisters and the Mother Superior of their community said that she wouldn't have been able to handle some other forms of religious life - "I never could have done the more penitential orders"

 

I heard that from A LOT of sisters I interviewed.

 

If you are going to enter a really strict Carmelite community though (1990 Constitutions) and you don't like the idea of using the discipline then this is something you should definitely ask about.

 

What "discipline" are you talking about that can be brought into rooms?

 

I remember thinking, waaay back when I first started seriously considering religious life: "Oh, I could NEVER be a Carmelite! They don't eat meat!" o_o Now that I'm older and have given more thought to the reasons for entering religious life (and have come to appreciate St. Teresa's writings), I think that not eating meat wouldn't be much of a problem. It's the interior mortification that seems the most daunting, now.

 

Yeah, only I still think like this, because every time I've ever not eaten meat, I've slept more than half the day and, on one occasion, wound up in the hospital for malnourishment. Some people really CAN'T function without certain "comforts"!

 

That being said, I think the greatest "austerity" for me would be the constant socializing (from my perspective) that goes on in most religious communities. So austere I simply could not handle it. I'd snap.

[Nunsense]

curiosing - Idon't mean to freak you out but the 'discipline' is a small whip made up of knotted stands of rope. It is used as a penance on certain nights. Different communities do it at different times and in different ways but the one I was in used it 3 times a week after Readings I think it was. We whipped ourselves on bare skin together in the choir with the lights turned off and all the shutters closed so there was total darkness and no one could see anyone else. One sister intoned the Miserere while we did it and when she was finished, so were we. We had time to rearrange our clothes again before the lights came on. It was a very strange experience for me because of how we had to do it, and it wasn't what I expected from watching the Teresa of Avila movie where she whipped herself alone in her cell on her bare shoulders.  

 

It is meant to be symbolic of sharing with Christ's passion and sisters are not to draw blood at all. But my NM had to warn me that if I felt any sexual arousal at all, I was to stop immediately. I found this an incredibly disturbing comment because it meant that obviously some sisters in the past had felt this way. I think that in this day and age, the discipline might not be a healthy penance but this is my opinion only and I don't condemn those who still find some spiritual value in it. It might depend on how and where it is done. I certainly didn't like the way it was done in that community. So if someone is planning on entering a really strict community where a lot of pre Vat 2 penances are done, then they should at least find out what these are and if they are ok with them. I would probably have still entered because this wasn't a deal breaker, but it is an indication of the attitudes of the community, which may have been part of my downfall.

 

Note - I am not condemning these practices, just advising that they can be controversial and cause concern, especially to parents and family.

[Maire]

I remember reading in a book that discussed lots of different orders, that a community of Passionists took the discipline in that way: all together in the choir, and in the dark. That was the first time I'd ever heard of that way of doing it; like you, nunsense, I'd always figured that it was a more private practice. The communal aspect of it just seems weird...like when I went to my church's Lenten penance service, and we each went up to the front of the church to where the priest was and confessed right there- with everybody else still in the pews! Talk about uncomfortable! :/

[Nunsense]

I remember reading in a book that discussed lots of different orders, that a community of Passionists took the discipline in that way: all together in the choir, and in the dark. That was the first time I'd ever heard of that way of doing it; like you, nunsense, I'd always figured that it was a more private practice. The communal aspect of it just seems weird...like when I went to my church's Lenten penance service, and we each went up to the front of the church to where the priest was and confessed right there- with everybody else still in the pews! Talk about uncomfortable! :/

 

 

Well, the strangest parts for me were hearing the sounds of whipping in the dark and the fact that we had to do it on our bare backsides - that's just plain weird. I just think maybe it would be better done alone on the shoulders if it must be done but with the prevalence of young women who self-harm, maybe something like this might not be appropriate in this day and age in any form. But that's just my own opinion of course.

[MithLuin]

How much is too much?  Can you handle it?

 

Well, the reason to even consider joining a community where you have some concerns about that is that...you are strongly attracted to their charism and community.  Because if you weren't, most people would walk away early on, before even getting to the point of thinking, 'Can I really handle this?'

 

From that point of view, if you're convinced you're called there, and just nervous about whether or not you can 'hack it'...the best way to find out is to enter.  If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.  I'm not suggesting this will be a painless experience.  It might very well be a trial, more than a trial run!  Entering is a big deal, and having to leave (especially if it is not by choice) is often painful, throws you back out into the world where you might not have a place to stay or a job, and it might be a year or so before you'd be ready to consider entering another order.  So, it shouldn't be done on a lark, or 'hey, let's try this out!'

 

But I don't think that concerns (even legitimate health concerns) should turn someone away from a community unless the *community* has made it clear that your particular issue is a deal-breaker.  If they aren't willing to work with you, it won't work.  That's...pretty straightforward.  But whether it is dietary or your ability to spend that many hours each day on your knees, these are things you can gradually work towards, and try out in a postulancy stage where you live the life but are not bound by the Rule of the community.  

 

Everyone has an adjustment to a new lifestyle - the first few weeks you'll probably be exhausted all the time and want to spend your free time sleeping!  This doesn't mean you're too weak for religious life, simply that you are adapting.  If more time goes by and you don't manage to adapt...well, someone is going to notice that it's not working out.  And then it will be up to you or up to the community to suggest that you leave.  Going in expecting the other foot to drop and boot you out is not wise (you won't really give it a real chance or feel like you 'belong there'), but if this is a concern you might want to hold off on giving away all your worldly possessions before entering.  Stashing things with family rather than dumping them off at St. Vincent de Paul, bank account waiting to be distributed...later.  That sort of thing.  Honestly, I think that's wise in general when entering.  More important decisions can be made when entering the novitiate or taking first vows, but prior to that....it's not a done deal.  

 

Others may have other advice, but mine is...that people should try, because you'll never know unless you try.  And if you get burned....maybe find a less austere/penitential group to try next time.  And as for your friend, [b]Julie[/b], just pray for her!  God's will be done and all of that.  

Edited September 17, 2013 by MithLuin

[Nunsense]

Well, I do agree with what Mithluin has posted about entering and trying, but one needs to be aware of the downside of this as well.

 

Once a woman has left a community or been asked to leave, if she applies somewhere else, she is probably going to be asked if she has ever lived in a religious community before (either by the superior or on the application form). And then start the questions about why - why did she leave or why was she asked to leave. If this has been done more than once, the candidate starts to look suspect to a community, and this can influence their decision to accept you. That's why I think that live-ins are a better option, if they are available. Telling a community that you have visited or done a live-in visit with another community doesn't sound as bad as having entered a left a community, especially if you have done it more than once.

 

Perhaps it shouldn't be this way because postulancy is supposed to be a time of discernment, but it is human nature I guess to worry about things like this -- just like applying for a job sometimes. If you have a spotty employment history, the prospective employer is going to want to know why. I speak from experience. These days, if I am interested in a community, there are two things I have to deal with - one is my age and the other is my past history of having been in communities and either left or been asked to leave. I have to decide how much to reveal while being tactful and charitable because if I complain about a past community, it appears that I am not accepting personal responsibility but if I don't explain why or how we weren't a fit, it can look as if I am simply flitting from place to place and am hard to please.

 

That isn't to say that this situation is impossible- nothing is impossible for God, but it does limit options, just as one's age does. Despite my age and my experiences, I have still been able to discuss a possible vocation with some communities. And if I can do this, than no one need despair. But I do think that simply entering and then leaving if it doesn't feel right will cause more problems in the long run, than a considered discernment period and a live-in visit first. Just 2 cents worth here.

Edited September 17, 2013 by nunsense

[Gabriela]

curiosing - Idon't mean to freak you out but the 'discipline' is a small whip made up of knotted stands of rope. It is used as a penance on certain nights. Different communities do it at different times and in different ways but the one I was in used it 3 times a week after Readings I think it was. We whipped ourselves on bare skin together in the choir with the lights turned off and all the shutters closed so there was total darkness and no one could see anyone else. One sister intoned the Miserere while we did it and when she was finished, so were we. We had time to rearrange our clothes again before the lights came on. It was a very strange experience for me because of how we had to do it, and it wasn't what I expected from watching the Teresa of Avila movie where she whipped herself alone in her cell on her bare shoulders.  

 

It is meant to be symbolic of sharing with Christ's passion and sisters are not to draw blood at all. But my NM had to warn me that if I felt any sexual arousal at all, I was to stop immediately. I found this an incredibly disturbing comment because it meant that obviously some sisters in the past had felt this way. I think that in this day and age, the discipline might not be a healthy penance but this is my opinion only and I don't condemn those who still find some spiritual value in it. It might depend on how and where it is done. I certainly didn't like the way it was done in that community. So if someone is planning on entering a really strict community where a lot of pre Vat 2 penances are done, then they should at least find out what these are and if they are ok with them. I would probably have still entered because this wasn't a deal breaker, but it is an indication of the attitudes of the community, which may have been part of my downfall.

 

Note - I am not condemning these practices, just advising that they can be controversial and cause concern, especially to parents and family.

 

Huh. I appreciate the detailed explanation. Yeah, I think there are some things I would definitely prefer to do in private!

[maximillion]

We took the discipline for about five years following my entry, well, that means that I only used it for a couple of years since those not in Vows were not permitted.

Then the practice was dropped.

 

However, this was done in ones cell, with the door slightly ajar, over the bare shoulder, at the same time as all the other novices. One of us knelt alone outside her cell door and said the Miserere - loudly, and we all used it in unison. Like nunsense, when she finished we all finished. Then there was a pause before Sister gave the night blessing and we all retired. This was done on Friday nights after Compline.

 

I was never given such bald faced instruction over the possible erotic aspects but NM told me that it was to be done with an attitude of profound humility. I was cross questioned about my thoughts and feelings over several months after my first vows in relation to this practice, clearly in order to check out I had the right attitude.

 

The thought of doing this in unison, undressed and in the dark....I think I would have cavailed at that.

 

Other things we did....just for info, Stations on our knees, Cross prayers of course, kissing the floor, asking for the prayers of the community in refectory naming a virtue or habit one wanted to acquire/correct.....

NONE of these was permitted without permission in advance, and the only novice I saw sent away was one who insisted on doing little penances and asking permission afterwards.

I have to admit to being told I had a rather blasé response to the penances. They were part of the life and God had called me to that life so I simply got on with them. It was never a big deal. I found it much more difficult to mount the refectory lectern and take my turn as reader!

Edited September 17, 2013 by maximillion

[Egeria]

I agree that one gets used to most of the external austerities and that the far more difficult challenges are the inner ones. However, and this probably only applies to a few of the monastic Orders who get up really early, the early rising is something that one never really gets used to, at least in my experience although I know others with similar struggles. Night people do not become morning people and monastic life is definitely easier for morning people. This is not to say that one should not still pursue it - far from it - but some of us will probably continue to struggle with this for the rest of our lives.

[Julie de Sales]

Thank you all for the replies! It is certainly not my intention to condemn any penances that might be the rule in a convent, just wondering if someone from the outside can know before entering if they will be able to get used to it. Personally, I don't experience in my ordinary life the fatigue, the hunger or the interior struggles that inevitably arrive in religious life. I guess you have to enter in order to know what it is like, because we are all different. 

I certainly pray for my friend-she must be a novice by now, and I believe she truly found her home :)

Regarding penances, I remember that one convent I visited was eating unheated food. Not all plates, but some of them. I found it difficult to be honest, even if it may seem a small thing. Some food was to hot to eat and other was so cold....As for the discipline, nowadays it sounds like such a strange practice, but it was very common in monasteries in the past. 

In the end, I think that if we are called to enter somewhere, we will recieve the grace to handle the sacrifices that come with it.