For Lack Of A Better Word, Can Nuns Still Have A 'beauty' Rout

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think it is charitable to be well-groomed for the sake of people one lives and works with . In some parts of the world maybe 1in a 1000 women will not wear some cosmetic or jewellery. So looking different can not only invite attention but also be risky.....

 

I agree about looking groomed and neat. I don't know I don't wear makeup and jewellery personally (I just wear medals and such things) and I don't think it's necessary, even if others do it. If it's part of someone's vocation to live simply and in poverty, I woudlnt' want to have any distractions in that case. Most jewellery is oriented towards looking more attractive, which could be a real distraction for a religious, at least it would be for me. I'm not sure what you mean by "risky"?

I didn't knew all these details, but i remember St Paul saying something about jewellery and beauty in one of his letters. However, I believe that customs change over time and maybe those saints and Fathers of the Church who were so strict on vanity in the past would be more understanding nowadays. In "Introduction to the devout life" by St Francis of Sales there is a chapter that talks about this matter and it's very well said. :)

I remember reading his chapter, he says in the end that we should dress in such a way that both the "wise" and the "young" would agree with, but if there's a conflict, to go with the wise ;) I wonder sometimes how this relates to our times... I mean, what happens when customs (like with modesty) change so much that it's popular to do things that even the "young" in those previous times would have greatly disapproved of? Should we then return to previous customs, in order to be wise? I hope I'm understanding St Francis correctly on this. I think that vanity is still applicable today, I mean back in those days in the early Church, it was also very fashionable to do certain things and many people did them, but the ECFs' still disagreed with them or with doing them too much (depending on the topic). Adornments were very popular before modern times as well.

 

I'm still trying to figure things out! lol!

Edited September 21, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[freedomreigns]

in the community I was with, which shall remain nameless, we we allowed to pluck if we had a problem with a unibrow, but for sculpting the brows.  We could shave our legs if we wanted to.  We certainly would not have used perfume or makeup.

 

 

[Fultonfan]

Thank you, everyone, for all your replies. Already, your comments have been so helpful to me and I have so enjoyed reading them. The only people with whom I can really talk about my vocation are men (and priests), so I don't want to embarrass them by asking about anything of this nature and I'm not sure they would know or understand anyway!

 

I also find the idea that women used not to bother about shaving and so on very interesting. They didn't have the means to do so anyway really, did they! I suppose it is one thing for a man to shave his face with a cut throat razor and quite another for a woman to do so...I think I'd rather have the hairy legs than cut my leg open!

I read that article about shaving with interest and I looked up another, written by quite a vulgar French feminist, but interesting nonetheless. It feels bizarre that I should be contemplating something which has become a habit of hardcore feminists. Of course, these radical feminists are ignorant of the fact that the idea of respect for women comes from God through His Church!

 

The Canonesses of the Mother of God really do seem like a beautiful order. I phoned the monastery the other day and the nun with whom I spoke (I assume the lady who answered the phone was a nun) was so sweet. God bless her! I hope to visit them in the next couple of months and stay for a week or so. 

 

They are both a contemplative and active order, so they do see people from the outside world sometimes. I suppose if we only saw one another it wouldn't bother me so much after a while. I don't know...I wouldn't like to look at someone with a hairy face! That sounds awful, but it's true. 

 

I'm not interested in dying my hair, since it will be covered anyway. As for make-up, I have all but given it up (except for mascara) without making much effort. I think I've done that through laziness, actually! :p 

 

If I'm wearing a full habit, I won't need to worry about shaving my legs but I suppose it is something that I wouldn't mind doing for the sake of my own comfort, because I have done it for so long (I am 24, so not very old :p ). It would feel very strange not to do it but what is the actual point if I'm not showing my legs? It is something that one gets used to, I suppose!

 

Maryslittleflower mentioned that a vital part of religious life is giving yourself up completely to God and giving up your old habits that are now superfluous. Thank you, you are so right. I have to remind myself that it must be for neatness and not for fashion. I can honestly say that I just would not want to draw attention to my face, that's all. 

 

I think Curiousing understands my predicament! I am half Indian so I don't have the same colour or type of hair or skin as Caucasian people. This is why Indians and Arabs have threading and all these waxing methods...they need them and I need them! Gosh, I just wonder if God wants me to be hairy!! Lord, I think that is a step too far. You're pushing me here! I'm only half joking too. I mean...gosh, does God ask that of us? I wish it was something I didn't have to consider. A relatively small but obvious cross, I guess. As Nikita92 said, these things become worse as you get older and I intend (Deo volente) to be there for life! I'm going to pray about it. I mean, it's really not a reason not to pursue this vocation. Not at all...

 

I wonder if the order will be quite strict about this because they are a traditional order, but they are active too. Hmmm, it's so hard to speculate! This is why I am so eager to stay with them so that I can really see what is their attitude is in this regard. I wouldn't like to use a razor, because hair only grows back much more quickly and thicker if one does that. Do you know that you can make a sort of wax out of sugar and water by heating it in a bowl? I've seen this done in Tunisia (and done it myself) and I wonder if they would allow that, because it's very cheap too. 

 

I was very interested to read what Maximillion said about all the sisters going to one sister for some 'grooming' once a month. It is so useful to have people here who have experience of these things. Otherwise, it just so hard to know.

 

Please keep up your replies if you have more to add. Any more insight would be greatly appreciated :) 

 

God bless you all!

[Antigonos]

Apropos makeup:  when I entered nursing school, the rules were "hair off the collar, no makeup, only a plain gold wedding ring allowed for married students". [1964].  We also had daily uniform inspection and woe to the girl with dirty shoelaces!

 

Several months later, my instructor took me aside and told me I could use a bit of rouge -- it seemed several patients had told her I was looking too pale!

 

In fact, eating a diet less rich and having a regular schedule, and not using makeup, will most probably result in a clearer complexion after a while, and actually improving one's appearance!  The business of hairy legs and underarms, btw, is a very cultural thing, and I bet it is simply a matter of getting used to it.  My eyebrows and leg hair are almost white, so I never shaved or plucked, and it never bothered me [I did do my underarms]

[Graciela]

I seem to recall reading a letter between St. Therese and her sister Celine reminding her to take tweezers along to the convent to deal with stray chin hairs, so clearly that counted as minimally expected maintenance.

 

What is difficult to imagine is trying to feel clean back in the days when Discalced Carmelite nuns were allowed a bath once per week and the remaining days had a wash up in cell with pitcher and basin.  Admittedly standards were quite different then and perhaps I am just too spoiled by having easy and cheap access to clean running water- but I am thankful that I do.

[EmilyAnn]

What is difficult to imagine is trying to feel clean back in the days when Discalced Carmelite nuns were allowed a bath once per week and the remaining days had a wash up in cell with pitcher and basin.  Admittedly standards were quite different then and perhaps I am just too spoiled by having easy and cheap access to clean running water- but I am thankful that I do.

 

That is still practice in some places. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Apropos makeup:  when I entered nursing school, the rules were "hair off the collar, no makeup, only a plain gold wedding ring allowed for married students". [1964].  We also had daily uniform inspection and woe to the girl with dirty shoelaces!

 

Several months later, my instructor took me aside and told me I could use a bit of rouge -- it seemed several patients had told her I was looking too pale!

 

In fact, eating a diet less rich and having a regular schedule, and not using makeup, will most probably result in a clearer complexion after a while, and actually improving one's appearance!  The business of hairy legs and underarms, btw, is a very cultural thing, and I bet it is simply a matter of getting used to it.  My eyebrows and leg hair are almost white, so I never shaved or plucked, and it never bothered me [I did do my underarms]

 

I can say that when I stopped wearing makeup, my skin actually improved over time! I was kind of ruining it with all the chemicals... also my eyelashes were basically nonexistent, and since I gave up mascara too they've actually grown a lot and got darker. I'm sort of interested about the stuff they put in cosmetics.

Edited September 22, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

I just wanted to say that I'm still trying to figure out all this! and it was very difficult for me at first, thinking of religious life, because I actually did worry about the vain questions and not just keeping yourself neat etc. With time, God helped with this.

 

I think it wouldn't be helpful as a religious to do things for fashion or looking more attractive or fashionable, like shaping eyebrows to make them the "perfect" Hollywood shape.

 

With shaving legs and how some feminists are against this... hmm I'm definitely not in the feminist movement. Im just thinking of the women who didn't/dont' shave their legs for reasons completely unrelated to feminism. For example, women prior to the fashion changes mentioned above. I'm kind of just curious where this idea is from in the first place... I mean, most women don't shave their arms and arm hair is considered perfectly acceptable :) how are legs different? if anyone knows any historical facts/theories, please let me know, Im just interested! still thinking :) it seems like before it was fashionable for women to wear sleeveless or shorter dresses, the idea of shaving those areas was just not discussed at all or cared about. If a woman today doesn't show those parts, how does that reflect on her decision to shave or not.

Edited September 22, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[jumpfrog]

 

What is difficult to imagine is trying to feel clean back in the days when Discalced Carmelite nuns were allowed a bath once per week and the remaining days had a wash up in cell with pitcher and basin.  Admittedly standards were quite different then and perhaps I am just too spoiled by having easy and cheap access to clean running water- but I am thankful that I do.

 

Having just come back from a short trip, I was reminded about how little I was bothered by not having a proper wash every day, which I normally require.  I noticed this when I was working on a farm too, where you might imagine that a daily wash was particularly needed!  

 

There must be something about the combination of city living, commuting, going in and out of various environments, stress (even the low-grade stress that comes from constantly encountering lots of strangers), and wearing makeup that makes me feel gross and stinky if I can't shower every day.  However, when on the farm, if I wiped under my arms and 'bits', rinsed my feet well, and splashed my face, I was good to go several days without a thorough wash...and I have VERY oily skin and hair.  My skin clears up nicely too...

[MarysLittleFlower]

Interesting how we get used to different things...

[Nunsense]

I seem to recall reading a letter between St. Therese and her sister Celine reminding her to take tweezers along to the convent to deal with stray chin hairs, so clearly that counted as minimally expected maintenance.

 

What is difficult to imagine is trying to feel clean back in the days when Discalced Carmelite nuns were allowed a bath once per week and the remaining days had a wash up in cell with pitcher and basin.  Admittedly standards were quite different then and perhaps I am just too spoiled by having easy and cheap access to clean running water- but I am thankful that I do.

 

 

Yes, I read that also, and that Therese said that even though they were nuns, they didn't have to have moustaches! :)

 

As for the bathing once a week thing, this still goes on in some English Carmels but I think that might be a cultural thing - the English don't seem to have a problem with weekly baths, whereas Americans and Australians like daily showers. In the Canadian and Australian Carmels we could shower as often as we wanted - and the few US Carmels that I have asked have said the same thing.

 

But the thing is that no one has to be stinky in Carmel - even those that bathe weekly. In the English Carmels, we were allowed to take a bucket of hot water to our cells at night. We would put plastic or waxed paper on the floor to catch water, and then we would pour the water into a basin and wash all over our bodies. When this was done, we could soak our feet in the water. And even though we didn't use perfume, we could use deodorant and body powder. I always felt clean before I got into bed at night.

 

And besides, this wasn't any worse than when I lived as a hermit in the Australian bush and had no hot water at all. I used to heat up water in kettles on the wood burning stove and then fill up buckets to wash myself. Once a week I would use the chip heater to make enough hot water to fill up the bath tub and have a bath.

 

The Missionaries of Charity also wash in a bucket. People can get used to almost anything. But if the issue is important to someone, it is probably a really good idea to add this to the question list before entering! :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

Interesting, I was wondering too about keeping oneself clean, and they work a lot too, like in the garden or around the monastery. Having some water in between the bathing times could help even if it could take a bit of time getting used to no showers.

Edited September 22, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[be_thou_my_vision]

Yes, I read that also, and that Therese said that even though they were nuns, they didn't have to have moustaches! :)

 

As for the bathing once a week thing, this still goes on in some English Carmels but I think that might be a cultural thing - the English don't seem to have a problem with weekly baths, whereas Americans and Australians like daily showers. In the Canadian and Australian Carmels we could shower as often as we wanted - and the few US Carmels that I have asked have said the same thing.

 

But the thing is that no one has to be stinky in Carmel - even those that bathe weekly. In the English Carmels, we were allowed to take a bucket of hot water to our cells at night. We would put plastic or waxed paper on the floor to catch water, and then we would pour the water into a basin and wash all over our bodies. When this was done, we could soak our feet in the water. And even though we didn't use perfume, we could use deodorant and body powder. I always felt clean before I got into bed at night.

 

And besides, this wasn't any worse than when I lived as a hermit in the Australian bush and had no hot water at all. I used to heat up water in kettles on the wood burning stove and then fill up buckets to wash myself. Once a week I would use the chip heater to make enough hot water to fill up the bath tub and have a bath.

 

The Missionaries of Charity also wash in a bucket. People can get used to almost anything. But if the issue is important to someone, it is probably a really good idea to add this to the question list before entering! :)

We didn't have water for two weeks when we first moved into our house, so my husband and I got a bit of a Carmelite experience...haha... but really, you are so right-- one can get used to anything. I would encourage anyone discerning an order with once a week baths or things like that to not be afraid! You never know until you try! And it's really not so bad! :)

[Egeria]

I once did a live-in with a community who bathed once a week (well, had a bath once a week - they also took a bucket of hot water to their cells each evening after Compline, so it wasn't as if they didn't wash. And given that the water was heated in a wood stove, it was quite a reasonable practice). But they forgot to put me on the roster for a bath. Being young and zealous and not knowing what their practice was, I didn't say anything. But after I'd been there two weeks the novice mistress came to me and apologized most profusely that they had forgotten to put me on the roster, and worried that I would think them more austere than they were!

 

Having later entered a monastery where bathing or showering every day was not the norm (although it wasn't rigid and had more to do with the lack of facilities than anything else) I realized how culturally relative these things are. And by that I mean not just the differences between geographic regions that Nunsense speaks of, but also that what is seen as expected in one historical era would have been considered the height of luxury in another.

 

And one really does get used to keeping oneself clean without taking a shower!

 

 

[brandelynmarie]

I seem to recall reading a letter between St. Therese and her sister Celine reminding her to take tweezers along to the convent to deal with stray chin hairs, so clearly that counted as minimally expected maintenance.

What is difficult to imagine is trying to feel clean back in the days when Discalced Carmelite nuns were allowed a bath once per week and the remaining days had a wash up in cell with pitcher and basin. Admittedly standards were quite different then and perhaps I am just too spoiled by having easy and cheap access to clean running water- but I am thankful that I do.

I was trying to remember this story about St Therese. :saint: I think simplicity is key & I'd be perfectly fine with a chapstick, moisturizer/lotion & a pair of tweezers. And to never color my hair again...that would be heavenly! ;)

[nikita92]

I totally second that last statement Brandelymarie!!!! ( btw-if I don't trim my eyebrow hair, it will grow out like Albert Einstein's white and all!)

[Aya Sophia]

My first novice mistress years ago was young and handsome but...had a moustache!  She too had to pluck or wax.  Objectively, this may seem like a vanity inappropriate in monastic life but, in the compassionate heart of Jesus, it is something quite other.  St. Therese had a wise and quick-witted delicacy about her (nurtured, imho, by her Salesian formation) that caused her to respond with His compassion to the needs and weaknesses of others and to rejoice in His mercy with regard to her own.