The Catechism Of Trent Vs The Catechism Of The Catholic Church

[Apteka]

Good question Apteka. That would require a comparison of Luther's understanding of liturgy, the CCC, and the Catechism of Trent on liturgy. Time to break out the coffee?  :bible:  Though my suspicion is that Luther would still find issue with a number of practices within the Church, despite the move towards ecumenism in the CCC (see link I just reposted above).

 

[Nihil Obstat]

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Edited September 25, 2013 by Nihil Obstat

[Nihil Obstat]

Vatican II seems like an undoing of Trent, especially in liturgical matters. I mean of the Council Fathers of Trent adopted the Vatican II resolutions, would there have been a division between Catholics and Protestants?

I think it is certainly fair at least to say that some of the fathers of Vatican II intended for it to be a repudiation of sorts of traditional Catholicism. I believe that attitude must be strongly opposed, of course.

[Apteka]

I think it is certainly fair at least to say that some of the fathers of Vatican II intended for it to be a repudiation of sorts of traditional Catholicism. I believe that attitude must be strongly opposed, of course.

 

How can you oppose the essence of Vatican II's mission?

[Apotheoun]

In connection with Vatican II Cardinal Kasper said: "In many places, [the Council Fathers] had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit them. Thus, the conciliar texts themselves have a huge potential for conflict, open the door to a selective reception in either direction." (Walter Cardinal Kasper,  L'Osservatore Romano, April 12, 2013)

[Nihil Obstat]

How can you oppose the essence of Vatican II's mission?

That would only be the essence of the 'mission' of Vatican II if the intentions of those particular council fathers are identical to the will of the council itself. I said nothing on that point. 

[AugustineA]

How can you oppose the essence of Vatican II's mission?

 

Essence as in the intent? The spirit of pastoral care and interpretation? The spirit of modernism? I think there's alot of wiggle room for interpretation of Vatican II's essence just based on the ambiguity of the documents. Therefore, alot of wiggle room for opposition, non? I dunno Nihil will have to answer that.  :smile3:

 

In connection with Vatican II Cardinal Kasper said: "In many places, [the Council Fathers] had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit them. Thus, the conciliar texts themselves have a huge potential for conflict, open the door to a selective reception in either direction." (Walter Cardinal Kasper,  L'Osservatore Romano, April 12, 2013)

 

Insightful man that Cardinal. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Essence as in the intent? The spirit of pastoral care and interpretation? The spirit of modernism? I think there's alot of wiggle room for interpretation of Vatican II's essence just based on the ambiguity of the documents. Therefore, alot of wiggle room for opposition, non? I dunno Nihil will have to answer that.  :smile3:

I agree with Cardinal Ottaviani. :hehe:

[Apotheoun]

The Church Fathers really did not like ambiguity in doctrinal formulations.

[Apteka]

The Church Fathers really did not like ambiguity in doctrinal formulations.

 

In some cases ambiguous statements were considered heretical

[AugustineA]

I agree with Cardinal Ottaviani. :hehe:

 

As a legal scholar considering the future of society, Ottaviani’s fear was that religious freedom would result in religious indifference and then a collapse of religious conviction, which would in turn lead to state hostility toward religious believers and religious institutions. His theological argument against religious freedom, widely held in the Roman universities of the day, rested on the proposition that “error has no rights.” The council’s response to that claim was that persons have rights, whether their religious opinions be erroneous or not, and that, in any event, states lack theological competence.

 

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/05/the-last-laugh-of-alfredo-ottaviani

 

It looks like Cardinal Ottaviani had a charism for prophecy!

[Basilisa Marie]

OMG You just HAD to bring up Ottaviani, didn't you Nihil?  :hehe2:   Cardinal Frings was totes more coolio, yo.  

 

 

Vatican II seems like an undoing of Trent, especially in liturgical matters. I mean of the Council Fathers of Trent adopted the Vatican II resolutions, would there have been a division between Catholics and Protestants?

 

 

I think it is certainly fair at least to say that some of the fathers of Vatican II intended for it to be a repudiation of sorts of traditional Catholicism. I believe that attitude must be strongly opposed, of course.

 

Undoing? Repudiation? I guess, depending on how you look on it.  Heck, even Cardinal Frings gave a speech in Genova (right before the council) about the different backgrounds of the first and second Vatican councils. The main point of most of the liturgical changes, and the emphasis on "full, conscious, and active participation of the laity" was that full, conscious, active participation wasn't happening for the most part.  The EF is an incredibly beautiful liturgy, a vital part of our heritage as Catholics, and should be available to those who find more spiritual nourishment from it than the NO.  But there was a reason for the shift, people just weren't getting the right catechesis, people weren't getting properly fed.  

 

But it's not just the liturgy, either. For the first time, the Church had a real developed theology of the laity.  We went from a theology where the activities of the laity were purely extensions of the mission of the bishop to a theology where the laity have a clear, distinct, and valuable role in the Church.  After the Council, we got a clear and updated Code of Canon Law.  

 

It's not like there wasn't good reason for a lot of the shifts.  
 

 

 

As a legal scholar considering the future of society, Ottaviani’s fear was that religious freedom would result in religious indifference and then a collapse of religious conviction, which would in turn lead to state hostility toward religious believers and religious institutions. His theological argument against religious freedom, widely held in the Roman universities of the day, rested on the proposition that “error has no rights.” The council’s response to that claim was that persons have rights, whether their religious opinions be erroneous or not, and that, in any event, states lack theological competence.

 

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/05/the-last-laugh-of-alfredo-ottaviani

 

It looks like Cardinal Ottaviani had a charism for prophecy!

 

 

Yeah, but he's arguing against religious freedom.  Error may not have freedom, but he ignores the fact that people have a right to choose their religion.  Fighting against religious freedom, particularly state-sponsored religious freedom, is only possible when you're in a position of temporal power.  But then, some people were still operating in the mindset that Catholicism only really thrives when it's the state-endorsed religion (which, of course, makes total sense - it had been almost completely true since the time of Constantine).  

 

Anyway.  This post is too long as it is. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Now there is Rahner, Congar and Kung

Whose praises are everywhere sung

But one fine domani

Ottaviani

Will have the three of them hung

 

Said Ottaviani to Cardinal Frings

Strange what collegiality brings

How Ruffini opined

Alfrink in mind,

This stuff with falsity rings.

[Apotheoun]

 

Now there is Rahner, Congar and Kung

Whose praises are everywhere sung

But one fine domani

Ottaviani

Will have the three of them hung

 

Said Ottaviani to Cardinal Frings

Strange what collegiality brings

How Ruffini opined

Alfrink in mind,

This stuff with falsity rings.

 

I didn't know it, but you're a poet.

[mashoffnersr]

On 9/24/2013 at 10:14 PM, Apotheoun said:

The Catechism of the Council of Trent is past its sell-by-date. You need to get up to speed with the re-reading of the Gospel in the light of contemporary culture. 

problem with contemporary culture is multifold. Many Catholics deny the presence in the Eucharist, allow for abortion, no longer fast on certain days, don't go to confession, etc. Culture is suppose to conform to the Church, not the Church to culture.