Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 As many of you recall, the atheist editor of la Repubblica challenged Francis with some questions, to which he responded albeit with a lot of controversy in the Catholic world. Here an interview is conducted with that same atheist editor, and when the editor suggest that perhaps Francis is trying to convert him, Francis boldly says proselytism is nonsense and that he has no intention of converting him. Anyway, here are some of the most interesting quotes from the interview. The full version can be obtained here: http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/10/01/news/pope_s_conversation_with_scalfari_english-67643118/?ref=HREA-1 Opinions? Concerns? Defense? ------------------------------------------------------------ "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us" "Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good." "And I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place." "The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood." Your Holiness, you said that you have no intention of trying to convert me and I do not think you would succeed. "We cannot know that, but I don't have any such intention." "The most serious of the evils that afflict the world these days are youth unemployment and the loneliness of the old." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I am thankful for God that we finally have a Holy Father who comes from the Jesuit tradition. Pope Francis realizes that action takes preeminence and not dead belief. It is about doing the Good, not merely saying that you believe in the Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 What is it you think proselytism is? Everyone shares something they believe in and it is up to the other person whom is hearing what the other person believes in to also believe it,consider it or not believe it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 I am thankful for God that we finally have a Holy Father who comes from the Jesuit tradition. Pope Francis realizes that action takes preeminence and not dead belief. It is about doing the Good, not merely saying that you believe in the Good. Didn't JPII and Benedict believe the same? What's concerning here, from a Catholic perspective, is that the Pope's views aren't catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us" Imagine someone walking into Starbucks and starting to preach about angels and demons and the end of the world, or even about fine thoughts about love and peace. That would be solemn nonsense, a farce that wouldn't do much except make the preacher feel good about themselves. It's what Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons do. I think there's a place for solemn nonsense, or holy foolishness. But in general he's just making a basic point which we all recognize in our daily lives...being a Christian does not mean making a fool of yourself with solemn nonsense. For the most part, the way to walk into Starbucks is to get to know the people there, listen to each other, and improve each other's knowledge of the world around you. And within that, there is room for Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Imagine someone walking into Starbucks and starting to preach about angels and demons and the end of the world, or even about fine thoughts about love and peace. That would be solemn nonsense, a farce that wouldn't do much except make the preacher feel good about themselves. It's what Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons do. I think there's a place for solemn nonsense, or holy foolishness. But in general he's just making a basic point which we all recognize in our daily lives...being a Christian does not mean making a fool of yourself with solemn nonsense. For the most part, the way to walk into Starbucks is to get to know the people there, listen to each other, and improve each other's knowledge of the world around you. And within that, there is room for Christ. It's not about method, Era, but rather that the Pope has no intention for conversion. The Roman Church no longer seeks conversion, it seeks dialogue. Every person has their own understanding of goodness and the world, and the Roman Church's goal to ensure each person finds and develops their own personal goodness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) What is it you think proselytism is? Everyone shares something they believe in and it is up to the other person whom is hearing what the other person believes in to also believe it,consider it or not believe it at all. It wouldn't edit again, but here is the bit i missed. Everyone whom talks to another or writes something is sharing what they believe in, or not believe in perhaps, directly or indirectly. Perhaps the proselytism that pope francis is talking about is to be so blinded as to not hear the other side of a discussion, and force feeding the other person to believe what you believe or get lost kind of attitude. Edited October 1, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 There is a deep vein of optimism about human nature here, flawed as we are. I love this. Pope Francis KNOWS that God constructed us in a way that we will seek Him. Our will is automatically biased towards the good by virtue of the way we were created. (Badly paraphrased Thomism.) Sure, original sin kinda messes this up just a little bit, but that is where grace kicks in. In each present moment, the grace is ALWAYS made available for each person to choose the available good for that moment. This is where Pope Francis' trust in God's ability to guide us to the good is ABSOLUTELY INSPIRING. How appropriate that this example of trust be published on the feast of the Little Flower, an exemplar of childlike but audacious trust in God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 There is a deep vein of optimism about human nature here, flawed as we are. I love this. Pope Francis KNOWS that God constructed us in a way that we will seek Him. Our will is automatically biased towards the good by virtue of the way we were created. (Badly paraphrased Thomism.) Sure, original sin kinda messes this up just a little bit, but that is where grace kicks in. In each present moment, the grace is ALWAYS made available for each person to choose the available good for that moment. This is where Pope Francis' trust in God's ability to guide us to the good is ABSOLUTELY INSPIRING. How appropriate that this example of trust be published on the feast of the Little Flower, an exemplar of childlike but audacious trust in God! Let the spin begin!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) It's not about method, Era, but rather that the Pope has no intention for conversion. The Roman Church no longer seeks conversion, it seeks dialogue. Every person has their own understanding of goodness and the world, and the Roman Church's goal to ensure each person finds and develops their own personal goodness. Well yes. The alternative is to set up an ideological fortress that the West grew out of a long time ago, where as I said in my post yesterday, the church is the spiritual guardian over an empire, and to encounter someone outside the empire is a matter of conquest. If that is the kind of social model you want to live in and move in, I'm not going to try and dissuade you. But in the real world people don't think like that. Of course he wants conversion, but not on those terms. He is a believer in Christ, and is always pointing to Christ. But he is speaking of conversion in context with an atheist, someone who lives in the world that actually exists, not someone who lives in historical fantasies. There would be no modern world without dialogue. You seem to want the church to rebuild a world that no longer exists. What is the alternative to people seeking the good as they know it? People generally don't seek the good as they don't know it. To seek the good as best you know it is something positive; it means they are at least seeking to do good. The opposite is that they don't care either way. Edited October 1, 2013 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Let the spin begin!! ouch. ;) interpretation and spin are two very different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 no edit again. What i mean by hear is it is wise to listen to other peoples ideas, it doesn't mean you have to believe there ideas though. You can win many an allie by simple listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (since when have you known a Dominican to spin anything a Jesuit says in a positive light? *wink*) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Well yes. The alternative is to set up an ideological fortress that the West grew out of a long time ago, where as I said in my post yesterday, the church is the spiritual guardian over an empire, and to encounter someone outside the empire is a matter of conquest. If that is the kind of social model you want to live in and move in, I'm not going to try and dissuade you. But in the real world people don't think like that. Of course he wants conversion, but not on those terms. He is a believer in Christ, and is always pointing to Christ. But he is speaking of conversion in context with an atheist, someone who lives in the world that actually exists, not someone who lives in historical fantasies. There would be no modern world without dialogue. You seem to want the church to rebuild a world that no longer exists. What is the alternative to people seeking the good as they know it? People generally don't seek the good as they don't know it. To seek the good as best you know it is something positive; it means they are at least seeking to do good. The opposite is that they don't care either way. The problem here is that the Church understood herself a certain way for nearly two thousand years. She was the ark of Noah, a necessity for one's salvation. Since the days of the Apostles she sought to bring others into her fold, not confirm people in their own beliefs. Some of the views Francis espouses appear to be heretical. What we call Roman Catholicism is in it's hay-day, something else, something new is coming to replace it, and it is doing so within the shell of the RC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) You seem to want the church to rebuild a world that no longer exists. What is the alternative to people seeking the good as they know it? People generally don't seek the good as they don't know it. To seek the good as best you know it is something positive; it means they are at least seeking to do good. The opposite is that they don't care either way. The pope isn't perfect and i do understand where he is coming from though and we all must understand in this candid interview he is not speaking infallibly with the holy spirit upon matters of faith and morals, but satan in his cunning may say " huh gotcha, some people believe that killing police officers is the good and right thing to do." For all those whom may be shocked at such candid statements from the pope. Edited October 1, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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