Don't Just Discern Your Vocation.

[Nunsense]

(Comment on the whole postulancy thing, I think that many communities have longer postulancies when they do don't things like live-ins before formal entrance. If someone has not spent more than a week or two with the community it makes sense to give them a longer "adjustment" phase.)

 

 

I still don't buy it. Six months is more than enough time to live in the community but not as a member of the community, unless the postulant feels they aren't ready for Clothing or the community has a particular problem with the Postulant that they think will change overtime. But as I said, this is my own pet peeve, and I don't expect anyone to see it my way.

[Gabriela]

It just seems that the whole process has become very complicated with aspirancies and candidacies and postulancies - all before one ever becomes a member of the community as a Novice, which is supposed to be the 'real' test of the vocation. But that is just a personal opinion of mine, I know. :|

 

I actually agree with this. I think we're "multiplying stages" at the moment. I don't think it's good. A few months' postulancy (the specific length depending on the particular individual, her maturity, how she's adjusting, etc.) is sufficient, IMO. On to the novitiate—or out. 

[Lil'Nun]

I have to be a perpetual discerner at the moment. Because I look after an elderly relative, and they depend on me. It's obvious this is where God wants me to be, at least at the moment. But I feel very strongly drawn to religious life and hope to enter one day.

I personally would like to make at least a couple of visits of two weeks plus, distance permitting, a few day or weekend visits. I'm older and a lot of communities have concerns about older aspirants, this would allow both parties to really discern the "fit", plenty of time to pray on it and eliminate the danger of being swept up into some kind of "honeymoon" period.

However, things might be different for me as I know I cannot enter for a while and so I would have plenty of time to visit and communicate in the meantime.

Now all I have to do is find a community that attracts me strongly and is open to this type of open-ended arrangement.

I just couldn't do a three-month live-in at the moment as I have responsibilities at home. I can do two weeks here and there and a few days from time-to-time.

God will find a place for me, this I know.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Lil'Nun

[Nunsense]

I have to be a perpetual discerner at the moment. Because I look after an elderly relative, and they depend on me. It's obvious this is where God wants me to be, at least at the moment. But I feel very strongly drawn to religious life and hope to enter one day.

I personally would like to make at least a couple of visits of two weeks plus, distance permitting, a few day or weekend visits. I'm older and a lot of communities have concerns about older aspirants, this would allow both parties to really discern the "fit", plenty of time to pray on it and eliminate the danger of being swept up into some kind of "honeymoon" period.

However, things might be different for me as I know I cannot enter for a while and so I would have plenty of time to visit and communicate in the meantime.

Now all I have to do is find a community that attracts me strongly and is open to this type of open-ended arrangement.

I just couldn't do a three-month live-in at the moment as I have responsibilities at home. I can do two weeks here and there and a few days from time-to-time.

God will find a place for me, this I know.

 

 

As Sunday's Gospel reading reminded us:

 

'Now will not God see justice done to his chosen who cry to him day and night even when he delays to help them? I promise you, he will see justice done to them, and done speedily.'

 

For me, this has always meant that all we can do is our best, and to pray to God always for His justice and His mercy. And then to trust in His love. :)

[Julie de Sales]

I liked the article, but there are some things I don't agree with. As some of you said, it's not that easy to enter a community and try their life as the author seems to suggest. As for the length of a live-in, if you are living with your parents and studying, like me, you can go for a 3 months live-in during summer holiday. But if I would have a job and other responsabilities, it just isn't practical. I also find (at least in my case) that in 1-2 weeks you can really see if the life of a particular community suits you. 

 

He also writes "When God calls, answer. After you answer, ponder. While you ponder it follow Him wherever He leads you." The problem is that you cannot always be sure that what you experience is the call of God. And even if it were, you still have to find the right religious community. Certain people may recieve the call together with the indication of where to enter; but some of us have to search, visit, spend time in prayer in order to have more clarity about where God wants us to be. 

 

I'm certainly the type of discerner that tends to over-think it, to dream about it and to panic if things seem to advance faster than I would like. But in making a decision like entering the convent or the seminary, you need courage as well as prudence.

[Nunsense]

I liked the article, but there are some things I don't agree with. As some of you said, it's not that easy to enter a community and try their life as the author seems to suggest. As for the length of a live-in, if you are living with your parents and studying, like me, you can go for a 3 months live-in during summer holiday. But if I would have a job and other responsabilities, it just isn't practical. I also find (at least in my case) that in 1-2 weeks you can really see if the life of a particular community suits you. 

 

He also writes "When God calls, answer. After you answer, ponder. While you ponder it follow Him wherever He leads you." The problem is that you cannot always be sure that what you experience is the call of God. And even if it were, you still have to find the right religious community. Certain people may recieve the call together with the indication of where to enter; but some of us have to search, visit, spend time in prayer in order to have more clarity about where God wants us to be. 

 

I'm certainly the type of discerner that tends to over-think it, to dream about it and to panic if things seem to advance faster than I would like. But in making a decision like entering the convent or the seminary, you need courage as well as prudence.

 

 

I understand where he is coming from but as you point out, it isn't always easy to know what God's will is. When the Carmel in Canada told me that they had voted to accept me for entrance after two weeks visit (and no formal application), I knew it wasn't the right place for me - mainly because the Chinese culture of the community felt alien to me, but for other reasons as well. But because they had gone ahead and done this thing without consulting me, I felt that God must be trying to tell me something. Even though I did not want to enter, I almost felt compelled to do so because it appeared to be God's will. God's will isn't always the thing that is in front of us or the easiest thing. So if one is looking for signs, then it can get very confusing.

 

We all want to think we are following where God leads us, but working out just where that is can take some time. So what we have here is the contradiction between being appearing to be stuck in perpetual discernment, or of following every path because it just happens to be in front of us.

 

Discernment is a VERY personal experience and I just don't think there is a 'one size fits all' for anyone.

[NotreDame]

I have to be a perpetual discerner at the moment. Because I look after an elderly relative, and they depend on me. It's obvious this is where God wants me to be, at least at the moment. But I feel very strongly drawn to religious life and hope to enter one day.

 

If you are the only person that can really care for this elderly relative, then I wouldn't consider you to be discerning, per se, and therefore wouldn't label myself a perpetual discerner.  I'd say you are fulfilling your current state in life. St Thomas actually addresses this in the page of the Summa that Br Gabriel links to:

 

"Consequently we must say that when their parents are in such need that they cannot fittingly be supported otherwise than by the help of their children, these latter may not lawfully enter religion in despite of their duty to their parents."

 

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3189.htm#article6

[Maggyie]

I have to strongly disagree with the article.

 

Religious life is objectively the better vocation but nothing is objective when it comes to pastoral care of the individual soul! If we were insects it would be easy to herd the mass of humanity into the novitiate and let the chips fall where they may. But we are not insects, God created us as individuals, loves us as individuals and calls us as individuals...

 

I wonder if Brother would recommend such a breezy discernment if hesitating before final or temporary vows, or ordination? Surely not. But by then you have invested years in the community, have a massive gap in your resume, or have huge seminary debt, perhaps have lost many relationships on the "outside."

 

The economic and emotional pressure to stay, may be overwhelming. Especially if you have a vocation director whispering in your ear, "abandon yourself to the will of God, remember that this is the objectively better vocation." One would hope the individual has enough self-respect to realize that trusting God at that critical moment means not to abandon oneself to the path of least resistance!

 

Very disturbing piece, especially when he says "you can always put the community back on the shelf." I've only known one person IRL who has recovered from "putting the community back on the shelf" but from what I've read on Phatmass and elsewhere it's SLIGHTLY more challenging than that. I hope I don't come off too negative, and I do agree about the perpetual discernment thing, but there are red flags flying for me here. I have seen too many VDs that emphasize recruitment above all else, almost running vocation mills, and it works out fine for their numbers but not so fine for the warm bodies that are the meat for the mill.

[Catherine Therese]

"putting the community back on the shelf" but from what I've read on Phatmass and elsewhere it's SLIGHTLY more challenging than that.

I actually felt compelled to comment on the article (surprise, surprise).

I really don't think that Brother was recommending that we throw out prudent and patient discernment with the indecisive bathwater, but his obvious zeal and current strength in his own call DID result in rather a "breezy," to use your word, treatment of some of the non-standard paths many of us are called to take. We can hardly blame him - if his future with his community looks strong and sure, he probably has little experience of the difficulties of leaving religious life. Generally contact is severed or at least limited between those who leave and their fellow postulants/novices so he has been protected from this very experience that has been overlooked here.

Overall, I agree with Brother's broad thesis. Drawing its ferocity from the narcissism of our present age, there is rather an epidemic of commitment-phobia that cripples many who would actually find peace and fulfilment if only they could trust Him and truly commit.

The notion of "putting the community back on the shelf" in most cases is completely removed from any kind of possible reality; when a person has made all of the life changes that you have listed and given themselves over to the Lord by entering a community, they have at least initially done so with the intention of a total and irrevocable gift of their very selves. They give themselves to the Lord, yes, and this is potentially portable, but part of the way they give themselves to the Lord is through as complete as possible a gift of themselves to their community. It is in loving others that we can most easily, in these composite (body+soul) realities of ours, express our love for the Lord, after all. It is THIS aspect that is not at all easily undone.

I'm not even sure "undone" is the word I'm looking for, there.

I honestly think that material written for lay audience by young religious (not referring to years of life, more referring to years of experience in religious life) should always be reviewed by a suitably experienced superior who can ensure that things like this can be caught before publish and massaged in such a way as to avoid these types of mistaken characterisations of an aspect of life experience from which the average young religious has been protected. Better that the possibility of one day leaving a community not be mentioned at all, than it be inadvertently treated in a misleading fashion.

[NotreDame]

To the last three posters... Thank you...  I did comment on the article, but did not comment here because I didn't want to be too negative, but I'm happy to see others share my concerns.

 

To Catherine Therese's comment on young religious publishing articles for lay people... I am genuinely surprised by it as well.  It's really not a well constructed essay.  It's not theologically sound.  I've never heard of the term "vocation mills" - though I can think of a couple groups that fit the bill - and poorly constructed letters like his play into the hands of these groups.

 

As a guy looking into the priesthood as far back as 10 years ago, getting advice on discernment was very, very difficult.  I felt bounced between wishy-washy, unclear musings (like Brother Gabriel's), gay-heterodox diocesan people I'd never trust (sorry, but it's true), and manipulative VD's from the "vocation mills."  A couple of times I just gave up for a long while because I didn't trust anyone.

 

I have reason to believe it's gotten a lot better.  There are much clearer books out on discernment and diocese's now have better people and processes in place.   Still, seeing a letter like that really upset me and brought back a lot of the old frustration.  Some of the best discernment advice I ever received came from seminarians, so I believe that younger people can have something to add to the conversation, but I'm surprised that for a Dominican his arguments and points were so scattered, leaving such an unhelpful, even unhealthy impression on the reader.

 

 

[TheresaThoma]

I definitely think there is a difference between perpetual discernment and doing one's duty towards families or studies. 

Finishing up a degree or taking care of a family member does not make one a perpetual discerner. You start to stray into the category when you use those duties as an excuse. For example if there is someone else in your family who is able and willing to take care of the family member you are caring for but you insist on continuing instead of really discerning and entering that is a problem. 

The other category of perpetual discerners are those who are free to enter (little to no debts, no responsibility for the care of a family member, finished with studies etc) yet just sit out in no-man's land not willing to commit to a community, even just for serious discernment. 

I would say as long as you are working towards becoming free to seriously discern/enter and aren't creating excuses/roadblocks ("I have to get this master's degree" or "I'm the only one who can take care of this person", when others can) for yourself then you aren't a perpetual discerner. 

[Catherine Therese]

I really honestly think that Br. Gabriel's zeal is inspiring and he can be forgiven for his consequent naiveté. He is simply too young to have the life experience to be able to cater for all the different circumstances that we've all be discussing!

Perhaps there is value in looking at the question he's raised on a more generic level - I'd love to see an well-written article on the virtue of Prudence as treated by St. Thomas Aquinas. He breaks down Prudence into 3 acts:

1. Deliberation (thought about what to do, an application of the intellect)
2. Judgement (selecting the best means in keeping with the truth presented by the intellect)
3. Command (the resolve to make it so)

Focusing on the Command act, which is the chief act of the virtue of Prudence, would apply to the notion of perpetual discernment. The two sins against the act of command are negligence, i.e. a refusal to command; and inconstancy, i.e. a withdrawal of command

Since none of us are perfect and each of us can grow in the area of Prudence, this approach might have yielded an article that was a little more helpful to all discerners and would have bypassed the need to understand the various different circumstances in writing a piece that suggests a normative path.

Having said all of that, I tend to think its maybe not that bad a thing that he's written this article that doesn't quite treat the matter 100% appropriately... look at the conversation it has sparked, both here and on his site! As we discuss it we each learn from each other and consider different types of experiences that we had perhaps not thought of prior.

[NotreDame]

Perhaps there is value in looking at the question he's raised on a more generic level - I'd love to see an well-written article on the virtue of Prudence as treated by St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

 

As for an article... It looks like that "someone" is you ;)  You've got a great start... just keep typing!

[Catherine Therese]

As for an article... It looks like that "someone" is you ;)  You've got a great start... just keep typing!

Drafted?

[4LoveofJMJ]

Like many of you I both agree and disagree on the points he has made.

I strongly disagree on the points he made about marriage being a "lesser vocation" as many of you have above. I can not fathom how it can be a lesser vocation when you are trying to raise a God fearing Catholic family in a very anti-religion world where having morals and values are considered hateful things! It just blew my mind when he said that because I know many very holy families who have been such a great witness to myself and others.

I do agree though on his notion on stop discerning only in your head because that can only get you so far. I'm not saying that you need to up and join the closest convent or seminary, but especially for my self, just recognizing that there is only so much that you can get out of looking at a religious order's site. As Br. Gabriel said, you can read about vocational discernment until your eyes fall out.


For me I have been discerning for a number of years but have been to scared to do anything about it for fear that it might make things "

[4LoveofJMJ]

(Ugh! Stupid tablet!) -"real." Plus i was too young to do anything about it. Just thought, and thought, and thought some more! Now I do think that it is a very real possibility and that I am either called to the Sisters of Life or the Franciscan Sisters TOR. But again, because of my age I won't be able to enter for a while. So even though I do want to go on one of their retreats, I know it would not be a good idea if my vocation would be confirmed and I would have an agonizing wait until I could enter! Plus would like to have an opportunity to date as I also long for marriage. I just feel like a total flip-flopper/ perpetual discerner! >.<

[Basilisa Marie]

His flippancy disturbs me. I do think he knows many people who would be helped by such an article, a good kick in the pants to make a decision and the reassurance that contemplative life is the "highest" vocation. But this kind of article isn't good for a broad audience.  What happens when someone tries on a community but discovers that he or she isn't called to that "objectively best" vocation?  The line of argument in this article would be enough to make many people feel like total failures as Catholics, that they just aren't "good enough" for the "best" vocation, or what have you.  

 

It would have been nice if he would have included some sort of method of how to make a decision, instead of just saying "Choose!" 

[EmilyAnn]

His flippancy disturbs me. I do think he knows many people who would be helped by such an article, a good kick in the pantaloons to make a decision and the reassurance that contemplative life is the "highest" vocation. But this kind of article isn't good for a broad audience.  What happens when someone tries on a community but discovers that he or she isn't called to that "objectively best" vocation?  The line of argument in this article would be enough to make many people feel like total failures as Catholics, that they just aren't "good enough" for the "best" vocation, or what have you.  

 

It would have been nice if he would have included some sort of method of how to make a decision, instead of just saying "Choose!" 

 

I have to agree with this. As someone who was going in the contemplative direction, it was articles and people like this that just made me feel like there was something wrong with me because I wasn't called to the "best" vocation. I was trying so hard to be called to the "best" vocation because I felt like not being made me - just as you said - a failure as a Catholic. 

 

I get what he was going for, but the execution of it fell short. 

[inperpetuity]

Great Article, thanks.  Personally, I have no problem accepting the fact that I am not the blessed Virgin Mary, whom I love dearly btw, lol! It's true that God loves us and wants us to be with Him forever no matter what vocation we happen to choose for whatever reason and that is the cause of our joy.  I don't think the Church's teaching that religious life is a more perfect life than marriage is meant to personally insult anyone or marriage in general.  It's just a fact and if one would read the church's explanation of it, it's really quite beautiful.  I've read it in many places but couldn't begin to tell you where!  I think Br. is right, sometimes we take ourselves way too seriously. :)