What Must I Do To Be Saved?

[Nihil Obstat]

Christ's gospel was not focused so much on worshiping Him, as St. Paul preached, but rather about participating in the Grace of God in one's life. Love God, who by this time in history was conceived of as cerebral and not very tribalistic, and Love your Neighbor. 

Paul was just as inspired as were the evangelists.

[John Ryan]

Paul was just as inspired as were the evangelists.

 

I am not doubting St. Paul's inspiration. St. Paul is central to the Christian faith. It is within his writings that we find the idea of atonement, without which Christian theology makes little sense. Yet, I do tend to believe that St. Paul became caught up in an exclusionary framework in his struggle against the persecuting Jewish establishment. The tone of many of the letters is not to associated with non-believers — in this case, Jews loyal to the Pharisees. Such a proposition does not appear commensurable with the open-table policy of Christ.

[Aloysius]

worshiping God and loving God should not be in any way juxtaposed as if they are at all mutually exclusive.  our worship of God is inspired by our love of Him, it is the proper response to loving God to want to worship Him.  there may be some point about a different emphasis in the letters of St. Paul compared to the gospels, but to in any way suggest that it's possible to love God without worshiping Him is utter nonsense in a Christian theological context--if you love God, you will worship Him.... if you don't worship Him, you don't really love Him.  they are totally intertwined.

[Era Might]

Christ's gospel was not focused so much on worshiping Him, as St. Paul preached, but rather about participating in the Grace of God in one's life. Love God, who by this time in history was conceived of as cerebral and not very tribalistic, and Love your Neighbor. 

 

I don't know what else to call leaving everything behind and following and obeying everything a man says, except to worship him. That's precisely what Christ demanded of the Apostles.

[John Ryan]

worshiping God and loving God should not be in any way juxtaposed as if they are at all mutually exclusive.  our worship of God is inspired by our love of Him, it is the proper response to loving God to want to worship Him.  there may be some point about a different emphasis in the letters of St. Paul compared to the gospels, but to in any way suggest that it's possible to love God without worshiping Him is utter nonsense in a Christian theological context--if you love God, you will worship Him.... if you don't worship Him, you don't really love Him.  they are totally intertwined.

 

It is utter nonsense for a Roman Catholic, but not utter nonsense for somebody from China.

[Aloysius]

it's utter nonsense in Christian theology, though, no matter where you are in the world.  sure, there are other religions in which people worship without loving, but that's not true worship as the only true worship of God is in love through Jesus Christ.  there is a point to be made that one should make sure that their worship is done in love... it's possible for someone to worship without love (and that's not true worship), but it's not possible to truly love God without worship. because worship is love (edited to add: or at least true love of God always inspires worship, I should say it that way)... it's not possible for anyone who claims to be Christian, anyway.

 

as far as people outside of Christianity--that is a valid Christian critique of other religions that we should bring into any kind of inter-religious dialogue--the Gospel of Jesus Christ announces God's profound love for humanity, and how our relationship with Him can be a loving one as sons and daughters of God... how our worship of Him can be filled with love and the participation in the Divine Energies of His Grace... how worship without love is dead and lifeless because God is love.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

Christ's gospel was not focused so much on worshiping Him, as St. Paul preached, but rather about participating in the Grace of God in one's life. Love God, who by this time in history was conceived of as cerebral and not very tribalistic, and Love your Neighbor. 

A person must participate in the grace which God offers to them. God extends all sorts of graces to His children, whether they be Buddhist, Jewish, or atheist. By their fruit you shall know them. I do not believe it is possible for a bad tree to bear good fruit. In that sense I think of God as a belief-pragmatist. God can be found behind so many difference symbols — even if the Roman Catholic Church is the sign and sacrament of salvation, because it offers the most perfect image of God Incarnate. I am convinced that Chinese people find God in the persona of Buddha and that non-believers are able to find God in the abstract idea of human rights — however, imperfectly these symbols may be.

It is utter nonsense for a Roman Catholic, but not utter nonsense for somebody from China.

 

 

smells phishy...

[John Ryan]

it's utter nonsense in Christian theology, though, no matter where you are in the world.  sure, there are other religions in which people worship without loving, but that's not true worship as the only true worship of God is in love through Jesus Christ.  there is a point to be made that one should make sure that their worship is done in love... it's possible for someone to worship without love (and that's not true worship), but it's not possible to truly love God without worship. because worship is love (edited to add: or at least true love of God always inspires worship, I should say it that way)... it's not possible for anyone who claims to be Christian, anyway.

 

as far as people outside of Christianity--that is a valid Christian critique of other religions that we should bring into any kind of inter-religious dialogue--the Gospel of Jesus Christ announces God's profound love for humanity, and how our relationship with Him can be a loving one as sons and daughters of God... how our worship of Him can be filled with love and the participation in the Divine Energies of His Grace... how worship without love is dead and lifeless because God is love.

 

I am not challenging the issue that love and worship are concomitant. I am doubting that love/worship are an exclusively Christian phenomenon, and that non-Christian love/worship is not a part of salvation.

[Anastasia13]

smells phishy...

 

Some lines more than others. Lemon? Tartar sauce?

Edited October 24, 2013 by Light and Truth

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Christ's gospel was not focused so much on worshiping Him, as St. Paul preached, but rather about participating in the Grace of God in one's life. Love God, who by this time in history was conceived of as cerebral and not very tribalistic, and Love your Neighbor. 

 

 

Do you know what? I love you !

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Christ is just a word.

[Aloysius]

well, I only entered into this because your first statement seemed to be juxtaposing St. Paul calling for the worship of Christ to Christ who asked for love, and while I granted there may be a different emphasis, I wanted to make clear that they were in no way conflicting ideas because worship in a Christian context is connected to love of God.  I'm glad you agree.

 

as regards love and worship happening outside of a Christian context, well... what we call TRUE worship only happens through Jesus Christ... that's the whole point of the incarnation.  if we could have true worship of God without it being through Jesus Christ, well it would've been rather pointless for Him to become incarnate and for the Holy Spirit to come and lead us into the revelation of the truth of the Holy Trinity.

 

of course love and worship do happen outside of a Christian context.  many religions have worship without love, or without a good idea of the true love of God in return. true love of God will inspire worship, if it doesn't inspire worship it's not true love... but there are those outside of the Church who direct their worship and love towards the one true God even though they misunderstand Him in some fundamental way; it is, of course, not true worship (ie 'orthdoxy' which means 'true or right worship'), but they can have sincere love and sincere desire to worship Him.  How God deals with those people is entirely up to God for He has bound salvation to the Church and the sacraments but He himself is not bound by them... but He will, I believe, try to guide them to the Ark of Salvation but outside of that we can hope and pray He will save them in ways He has not revealed to us (He wants us to be spreading the Gospel to them so that we can participate in the plan of salvation for them)

[John Ryan]

Do you know what? I love you !

 

Christ is just a word.

 

Well, Christ is not just a word. It is an abstract and concrete idea. 

 

well, I only entered into this because your first statement seemed to be juxtaposing St. Paul calling for the worship of Christ to Christ who asked for love, and while I granted there may be a different emphasis, I wanted to make clear that they were in no way conflicting ideas because worship in a Christian context is connected to love of God.  I'm glad you agree.

 

as regards love and worship happening outside of a Christian context, well... what we call TRUE worship only happens through Jesus Christ... that's the whole point of the incarnation.  if we could have true worship of God without it being through Jesus Christ, well it would've been rather pointless for Him to become incarnate and for the Holy Spirit to come and lead us into the revelation of the truth of the Holy Trinity.

 

of course love and worship do happen outside of a Christian context.  many religions have worship without love, or without a good idea of the true love of God in return. true love of God will inspire worship, if it doesn't inspire worship it's not true love... but there are those outside of the Church who direct their worship and love towards the one true God even though they misunderstand Him in some fundamental way; it is, of course, not true worship (ie 'orthdoxy' which means 'true or right worship'), but they can have sincere love and sincere desire to worship Him.  How God deals with those people is entirely up to God for He has bound salvation to the Church and the sacraments but He himself is not bound by them... but He will, I believe, try to guide them to the Ark of Salvation but outside of that we can hope and pray He will save them in ways He has not revealed to us (He wants us to be spreading the Gospel to them so that we can participate in the plan of salvation for them)

 

I do not think we have to have such an exclusionary perspective on worship. If true worship equals one-hundred percent in the Roman Catholic liturgy then it seems plausible that Buddhist worship equals at least seventy-five percent.   

[An Historian]

I am convinced that Chinese people find God in the persona of Buddha and that non-believers are able to find God in the abstract idea of human rights — however, imperfectly these symbols may be.

 

Neither of which will avail them of salvation.

[John Ryan]

Neither of which will avail them of salvation.

 

Does this necessitate that all the pre-Christian Jews of the old covenant were outside the economy of salvation? I tend to think we are sometimes too focused on the Second Person as Jesus Christ, that we forget that He is the Divine Logos of the world. Christ is the underlying force of beauty, justice, goodness and love in existence. Therefore, I think it is absurdly illogical to say that Buddhist, Daoists, Muslims and Jews are not participating in the Grace of Christ. 

Edited October 25, 2013 by John Ryan

[Aloysius]

there is a difference between 'true worship' or 'right worship' and simply worship... true worship of God is only possible through Jesus Christ.  it is the very definition of the word "orthodoxy"... you may have any different kind of idea you like about what degree to which people outside of Christianity worship God, but to suggest that they have "true worship" is to purely and absolutely reject Christianity completely and to cease to affirm Christianity entirely... but I think you are not quite used to the theological term of "true" or "right" worship, which is what "orthodoxy" means... it is very important that as a Christian you affirm that the true orthodoxy, or right worship of God, is only that which goes through Jesus Christ to the Father.  anything you say about percentages is rather foreign to regular Christian understandings of things... there's not some degree of true worship that happens outside of worship through Jesus Christ, there is a difference in KIND not just DEGREE... that's not to say you can't find something to affirm as valuable in a non-Christian directing worship towards the true God, of course, but they have zero degrees of "orthodoxy" or "right worship" unless they are worshiping the Holy Trinity through Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of the Father.

 

anything that suggests that any kind of worship that is not done through Jesus Christ is different that worship through Him is some kind of difference in degree rather than kind is absolutely repugnant to Christianity and would completely deny the uniqueness and importance of Our Lord's revelations to mankind.  not saying that's what you're doing here, I think you're just being imprecise but I think it is rather important that you should affirm this, and move on to any other kinds of things you might have to ponder about non-Christian attempts to engage with the Almighty from that point...

[An Historian]

Does this necessitate that all the pre-Christian Jews of the old covenant were outside the economy of salvation? I tend to think we are sometimes too focused on the Second Person as Jesus Christ, that we forget that He is the Divine Logos of the world. Christ is the underlying force of beauty, justice, goodness and love in existence. Therefore, I think it is absurdly illogical to say that Buddhist, Daoists, Muslims and Jews are not participating in the Grace of Christ. 

 

Of course the pre-Incarnation Jews were within the economy of salvation as they were covered by the Old Covenant.  They were saved by their belief in the redeemer to come.  After Christ's Passion and Death He descended into hell—that is, the Limbo of the Fathers—and announced to the holy souls therein that soon they would be enjoying the Beatific Vision.  Their redeemer had come and saved Israel for her iniquities.

 

Neither am I a Jansenist heretic.  One of the condemned positions of Jansenism is that grace does not operate outside of the Catholic Church.  Grace does operate with Buddhists, Daoists, Muslims, Jews and atheists if they are open to it.  But what is more that grace will not enable them or sustain them in their errors but will rather draw them to the Holy Catholic Church that Jesus Christ established with a divine constitution for the salvation of souls.  Yes God's grace can and does operate amongst all men.  If they are non-Catholics and they are of good will and are truly open to God then they will be led to the Catholic Church by that grace.  All in spite of their Islamic or Buddhist religion which avails them of nothing and does not please God.

 

I think it is absurdly illogical to state that when Christ clearly said that "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." that he somehow didn't really mean it.

Edited October 25, 2013 by An Historian

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Well, Christ is not just a word. It is an abstract and concrete idea. 

 

 

I do not think we have to have such an exclusionary perspective on worship. If true worship equals one-hundred percent in the Roman Catholic liturgy then it seems plausible that Buddhist worship equals at least seventy-five percent.   

 

 

You cut and post bits and pieces of the whole of what i said, very unfair don't you think? I was being coy with saying christ is just a word right, and you fished it like a legend but also took me out of context of the whole of what i was pushing for.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[jazzytakara]

Faith and Good Works

Love God above all things and love others as yourself

Follow the commandments, go to confessions, participate in the other sacraments

A simple answer, would be to follow God and seek His truth, He will guide those who seek Him to salvation.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Does this necessitate that all the pre-Christian Jews of the old covenant were outside the economy of salvation? I tend to think we are sometimes too focused on the Second Person as Jesus Christ, that we forget that He is the Divine Logos of the world. Christ is the underlying force of beauty, justice, goodness and love in existence. Therefore, I think it is absurdly illogical to say that Buddhist, Daoists, Muslims and Jews are not participating in the Grace of Christ. 

 

 

I have thought of this before. My understanding of the holy roman catholic church is she has always said that some elements of the truth(light) have existed in all cultures throught time and the world, and that the real doctrine of the holy roman catholic church is that we the holy roman catholic church have the fullness of the truth(light.) not partially. And if the truth is God and God is love than even one particle of him the truth and the light has the power to save. That's what i think anyway. Unsure if i've explained myself correctly and i only know a little bit about all this but there's my 2 cents, and i may be wrong.

 

Onward christian souls.

 

Jesus iz LORD.

 

God iz LOVE!

Edited November 14, 2013 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye