Opinions, Please!

[Aya Sophia]

http://doihaveavocation.com/blog/archives/1051

 

I've been following certain Catholic bloggers outside phatmass. This article is both interesting and confusing to me. I'd be curious to hear other peoples' opinon...

 

Is this Orthodox or traditional Catholic teaching? I know young people who have asked me about it. Thoughts please?

 

The author's use of the two images to indicate the state of the habit, indicating the lack of a habit today, is misleading.  At the motherhouse in Rue de Bac (and presumably elsewhere, as I saw (spoke to) Sisters from the Philippines and from Germany, wearing identical habits to Sisters in Rue de Bac) the Sisters do indeed wear a habit.

 

As for canonical status, France has a long history of formalised persecution of the Catholic church and, more pointedly, of priests and religious, regardless of their canonical status.  Started with the revolution - not sure when it would be said to have ended but certainly continued into the first half of the 20th C.  It's quite poss that a community or order and the individuals in it had a certain canonical status at one stage but were forced by the govt to put it aside in favor of secularisation.  With the advent of yet another govt they might regain, canonically, something of what they had lost under the previous only to lose it again later on.  Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul would certainly not have been exempt from this -  in fact, they were always in the thick of it. 

 

Add to this the relative newness of active Orders in St. Catherine's time (relative meaning, Church was 1800+ years old, active orders appeared end of 18th beginning of 19thc).  Given the slowness of movement in legal matters in the Church, at the time of St. Catherine there was probably still a haziness about canonical status and canon law covering active orders.  (Historian of canon law I am not - just my take).

 

All this is to say that the case of St. Catherine Laboure seems an "easy target" for the blogger ref'ed above to use to support her ideas.

 

Beautiful, very substantial account of St. Catherine Laboure at http://archive.org/stream/venerablesisterc00crapuoft/venerablesisterc00crapuoft_djvu.txt   What a magnificent soul.

 

(btw, this account mentions her entering as postulant, then entering novitiate, etc.)

 

Edited October 23, 2013 by Aya Sophia

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

While I'm not thrilled with the tone of the post it is correct. Of course, back in the time of St. Catherine the only ones considered religious according to canon law were monks and nuns. It wasn't until the 1917 code that active religious were considered religious.

 

Part of the problem we are having today is that the "new" code of 1983 puts everyone under the term of "consecrated life" so everything is pretty much murky.

 

And just to throw in another curve...in the middle ages anyone living a rule of life: tertiaries, etc. were considered living "religious life". Technically, the 3rd Order cloisters of the Dominican Order weren't nuns but what were they considered according to the Church. No one is really sure. Canon Law wasn't the important thing it is now before Trent.

 

The current theology of religious life puts heavy importance on the vows (and the type of vows) while the older Orders put the stress on living the way of life one has embraced. It's a slight nuance but significant in the theology of religious life and the theology of the vows.

 

I'm not sure where it is all going to go but I suspect down the road (maybe when I'm long gone and dead) there will be some clarifications in all this.

[Nunsense]

While I'm not thrilled with the tone of the post it is correct. Of course, back in the time of St. Catherine the only ones considered religious according to canon law were monks and nuns. It wasn't until the 1917 code that active religious were considered religious.

 

Part of the problem we are having today is that the "new" code of 1983 puts everyone under the term of "consecrated life" so everything is pretty much murky.

 

And just to throw in another curve...in the middle ages anyone living a rule of life: tertiaries, etc. were considered living "religious life". Technically, the 3rd Order cloisters of the Dominican Order weren't nuns but what were they considered according to the Church. No one is really sure. Canon Law wasn't the important thing it is now before Trent.

 

The current theology of religious life puts heavy importance on the vows (and the type of vows) while the older Orders put the stress on living the way of life one has embraced. It's a slight nuance but significant in the theology of religious life and the theology of the vows.

 

I'm not sure where it is all going to go but I suspect down the road (maybe when I'm long gone and dead) there will be some clarifications in all this.

 

 

Thank you Sr Mary Catherine - very well put. It is a difficult time for the Church as a whole, with opinions being polarized on a multitude of different issues, so it is no surprise that religious life should be yet another area where there are confusions and differences of opinion.

 

And as you point out, canon law has changed over the centuries, and it appears that changes haven't stopped yet. Certainly the content of the article might have been better received if it had been less confrontational.

[nikita92]

[mod]deleted for the confrontational tone.... and as a note, the moderating team is appreciative of anyone who helpfully reminds people to avoid confrontations and debates in Vocation Station, there is nothing wrong with a non-moderator reminding people to avoid confrontation, it is welcomed and appreciated -Aloysius

 

Edit:  And said in agreement after discussion, so if anyone needs to blame a mod, blame us all. - BG[/mod]

[NotreDame]

Indeed, an interesting nuance it is.   From my own limited experience, I've seen in some newer orders the focus in both the constitution and community life is very much on the "vows", or at least one vow in particular and very little attention given to the "rule" or way of life.  In fact, the vows - or at least what the community sees as the "most important vow" - can be followed precisely and yet the way of life can be quite arbitrary and vary greatly among members and houses.  Hmm... Very interesting point worthy of more thought.

 

Also, thanks to the OP.  I find the Canon Lawyers site very interesting.

 

The current theology of religious life puts heavy importance on the vows (and the type of vows) while the older Orders put the stress on living the way of life one has embraced. It's a slight nuance but significant in the theology of religious life and the theology of the vows.

Edited October 23, 2013 by NotreDame

[Sponsa-Christi]

How come CVs are so often like that? This isn't a personal attack on any individual CV, or on the vocation itself (which I find plenty laudable). It's just something I've noticed in a lot of CVs. So many of them seem bitter... Why?

 

Sorry to keep this tangent alive, but I actually did write a whole post about this on my blog last year: "Consecrated Virgins and Bitterness." I originally wrote this post with other consecrated virgins in mind as my intended audience (although my I think my main purpose was really to preach to myself first of all). But maybe VS-ers with these kinds of questions may find it helpful as well. 

 

And by the way, Curiousing, I just want to reassure you that I was not offended at all by your comment. Naturally, I'm always saddened and embarrassed when CVs give this kind of impression. But I think that talking honestly about these kind of problems in a respectful and appropriate context is a very good and necessary thing. I do feel like a lot of vocation-discernment resources on consecrated virginity tend to romanticize this vocation a little bit, so a big part of me is actually glad when I see discerners/aspiring CVs consider the challenges and "issues" associated with this vocation in a realistic way. 

[Gabriela]

Sorry to keep this tangent alive, but I actually did write a whole post about this on my blog last year: "Consecrated Virgins and Bitterness." I originally wrote this post with other consecrated virgins in mind as my intended audience (although my I think my main purpose was really to preach to myself first of all). But maybe VS-ers with these kinds of questions may find it helpful as well. 

 

And by the way, Curiousing, I just want to reassure you that I was not offended at all by your comment. Naturally, I'm always saddened and embarrassed when CVs give this kind of impression. But I think that talking honestly about these kind of problems in a respectful and appropriate context is a very good and necessary thing. I do feel like a lot of vocation-discernment resources on consecrated virginity tend to romanticize this vocation a little bit, so a big part of me is actually glad when I see discerners/aspiring CVs consider the challenges and "issues" associated with this vocation in a realistic way. 

 

Excellent, SC! Thank you for the link to the blog! It looks great!  :like3: 

[TheresaThoma]

I would like to add that this has made be go back and look over the website for the community I am discerning with and really pay attention to exactly how they describe themselves and what terms they use.

[ChristinaTherese]

[mod]deleted for the confrontational tone.... and as a note, the moderating team is appreciative of anyone who helpfully reminds people to avoid confrontations and debates in Vocation Station, there is nothing wrong with a non-moderator reminding people to avoid confrontation, it is welcomed and appreciated -Aloysius

 

Edit:  And said in agreement after discussion, so if anyone needs to blame a mod, blame us all. - BG[/mod]

Thank you all. Although I do have to say that I read Niki's first post and took it more literally than she meant and thought Nunsense might really make a good mod. Her levelheadedness has been good time and time again. (Thanks, Nunsense!)

[Nunsense]

Thank you all. Although I do have to say that I read Niki's first post and took it more literally than she meant and thought Nunsense might really make a good mod. Her levelheadedness has been good time and time again. (Thanks, Nunsense!)

 

 

From your mouth to dUSt's ears, CT - but I doubt it will happen. I seem to have a way of getting some people's backs up - without much effort at all on my part - my passion is often misinterpreted as arrogance. :(  

 

But thank you for the kind words. It's nice to know that someone likes me! :)

[Ima Lurker]

Thank you, Aya Sophia for your helpful response which comes closest to answering my actual question helping me in my dilemma.

 

Of course it would be best to ask a canon lawyer to discern Ms. Ivers' orthodoxy and I will take your advice and find someone educated to ask!

 

Here is my problem. I have a friend who is discerning her vocation. She is from a traditional Catholic family. I am one of her closest friends. She asked me (and several others) to help her research to find a good traditional spiritual director.

 

My concern here is not whether this blogger speaks sweetly but is this person going to be helpful in my friend's discernment as she ponders giving herself fully to Christ.

 

And on my own tangent, while still a member in a religious Community, I met a member of the SOLT community who edified me greatly. This is not about shaming SOLT. What I'm looking for is good wholesome information. Does this site provide it? Is this person Orthodox? Can I recommend this blog? Again, this isn't about tone, it's about accuracy.

 

Also, if anyone knows other good traditional sites where I can ask these questions and get helpful answers, please PM me! I'm pretty sure this is asking a lot but I'm also confidant that some of you have been where my friend is in good charity, will offer assistance.

 

Again, thanks everybody!

[DiscernerDOC]

I am joining this in months late, but if anyone sees this post i would like for them to refer to this page http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/vocations/consecrated-life/forms-of-consecrated-life.cfm

This person is sadly wrong in that those of Society of Apostolic life are not consecrated to God, and also her mentioning regarding the Daughters of Charity (not sisters of charity that is a different branch all together, not made from St. Vincent De Paul but from his ruling, and not the order that St. catherine was in. There is much more in depth then this blogger mentions, and it is quite sad that she made generalized thoughts on those of Society of Apostolic life, especially the Daughters, who were the first.