Discernment As A Plague

[ToJesusMyHeart]

The woeful fashion trend in young American Catholics: "Discernment" 

 

We've been conditioned to believe that before we do anything, we must "discern." It is plaguing our generation and preventing us from truly following God’s will for our lives! We’re so worried about not following God’s will, that we have to think about deciding, to think about deciding to do something.

It’s a spirit of passivity disguised as “discernment”.

Speaking of discerning Priesthood or Religious Life: the ACTUAL discernment happens once you’re in the seminary or convent. It’s no surprise that there is a decline of vocation to the Priesthood, and we have an increase of priests from overseas (God bless them for saying yes to His will!) leading our congregations.

Do you feel a calling to the Priesthood so you have been discerning about entering the seminary for years? ENTER THE SEMINARY. Is He calling you to Religious Life and so you’ve been spending 3 nights a week volunteering at the soup kitchen that the Missionaries of Charity work at just to see what it’d be like to be a Sister? APPLY TO A CONVENT.

 

 

http://adverticem.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/the-latest-catholic-fashion-trend-discernment/

 

with thanks to the171 for posting this on Facebook.

[Nunsense]

Reminds me a bit of this thread we had recently

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/131659-dont-just-discern-your-vocation/#.UnBMUyW4bDc

 

The same comments apply to this article IMO.

 

Perhaps this one doesn't take it quite as far - it suggests visiting a convent or dating a person but it does say that if you are considering the seminary you should just enter the seminary. I'm just not so sure that leaping before looking is the right answer, but it's certainly thought provoking.

 

Edited October 30, 2013 by nunsense

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

Reminds me a bit of this thread we had recently

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/131659-dont-just-discern-your-vocation/#.UnBMUyW4bDc

 

The same comments apply to this article IMO.

 

Perhaps this one doesn't take it quite as far - it suggests visiting a convent or dating a person but it does say that if you are considering the seminary you should just enter the seminary. I'm just not so sure that leaping before looking is the right answer, but it's certainly thought provoking.

"We need to be more bold. There's a difference between being rash and being bold."
 

[maximillion]

On the other hand, there is no way of truly knowing from the outside (and it's still darned difficult even after you've entered!)

[NotreDame]

Reminds me a bit of this thread we had recently

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/131659-dont-just-discern-your-vocation/#.UnBMUyW4bDc

 

The same comments apply to this article IMO.

 

Perhaps this one doesn't take it quite as far - it suggests visiting a convent or dating a person but it does say that if you are considering the seminary you should just enter the seminary. I'm just not so sure that leaping before looking is the right answer, but it's certainly thought provoking.

 

Nunsense is right.  This article is deeply problematic for many of the same reasons.

 

"It’s a spirit of passivity disguised as “discernment”."  - many people in general are indecisive.  Some who are catholic will say they are "discerning" as an excuse to be indecisive - thought they aren't actually discerning.  Discernment is anything but passive - at least according to the doctors of the Church.  

 

However, many will genuinely try to discern, but just not have the right resources or direction.  Well-formed priests are in short supply, not to mention well-formed spiritual directors.   When is someone indecisive and when are they actively trying to discern, but lacking proper guidance?  If they are the latter, when should, for lack of progress, they just make the jump?  That's aren't easy questions to answer and young lay-people - recent converts no less - should be careful giving such strongly worded spiritual advice. 

"It’s the same of discerning Priesthood or Religious Life: the actual discernment happens once you’re in the seminary (or convent)."  - This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  If he actually read books on the subject, he'd know how silly this sounds.   Or, as to the earlier post, maybe he is just very clumsy making his point and this isn't what he means. 

[PhuturePriest]

Reminds me a bit of this thread we had recently

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/131659-dont-just-discern-your-vocation/#.UnBMUyW4bDc

 

The same comments apply to this article IMO.

 

Perhaps this one doesn't take it quite as far - it suggests visiting a convent or dating a person but it does say that if you are considering the seminary you should just enter the seminary. I'm just not so sure that leaping before looking is the right answer, but it's certainly thought provoking.

 

My spiritual director says you must be balanced and not just jump into things the moment you feel like it. He said to imagine marriage and the priesthood are two magnetic poles, place yourself in between them, and through discernment see which one pulls you in. If I did everything I wanted to simply off impulse, I would have joined sixty communities, went sky diving, joined every branch of the military except the Air Force, climbed Mount Everest, had every popular dog breed imaginable, etc. You have to discern and be smart about things. Jumping in blindly will do you little good in the long-run and can have a lot of negative consequences.

[Nunsense]

My spiritual director says you must be balanced and not just jump into things the moment you feel like it. He said to imagine marriage and the priesthood are two magnetic poles, place yourself in between them, and through discernment see which one pulls you in. If I did everything I wanted to simply off impulse, I would have joined sixty communities, went sky diving, joined every branch of the military except the Air Force, climbed Mount Everest, had every popular dog breed imaginable, etc. You have to discern and be smart about things. Jumping in blindly will do you little good in the long-run and can have a lot of negative consequences.

 

 

Absolutely spot on FP. We can get led astray by strong emotions masquerading as signs from God. Discernment is a balance and your SD gave you great advice.

 

If I had followed every impulse of mine when I was young, I would have been a spy, an astronaut, a ballet dancer, a bird doctor (not a veterinarian - just a bird doctor!:p) and too many other things to mention.

[PhuturePriest]

Absolutely spot on FP. We can get led astray by strong emotions masquerading as signs from God. Discernment is a balance and your SD gave you great advice.

 

If I had followed every impulse of mine when I was young, I would have been a spy, an astronaut, a ballet dancer, a bird doctor (not a veterinarian - just a bird doctor! :P) and too many other things to mention.

 

He's a really, really super smart Priest in his fifties, and he has a lot of great advice. I remember when I saw him last week, on top of that advice he said to remember we are all called to marriage: it's just a matter of if you are called to marry a girl (or man) or the Bride of Christ.

 

I don't mean to shock you, but when I was a kid, I wanted to be a new thing every five seconds. :P

[Nunsense]

He's a really, really super smart Priest in his fifties, and he has a lot of great advice. I remember when I saw him last week, on top of that advice he said to remember we are all called to marriage: it's just a matter of if you are called to marry a girl (or man) or the Bride of Christ.

 

I don't mean to shock you, but when I was a kid, I wanted to be a new thing every five seconds. :P

 

 

Nothing anyone could do would shock me much. I'm old and I've seen it all (or nearly all).

 

 

Let's just say I've been around ----- or at least nearby :P

[PhuturePriest]

Nothing anyone could do would shock me much. I'm old and I've seen it all (or nearly all).

 

 

Let's just say I've been around ----- or at least nearby :P

 

Don't tempt me.

 

[Desert Walker]

I wanted to be a priest (I guess I still do, but I am not a very good person).

 

I joined a religious community to discern, started questioning the moral authority of bishops, then my family started telling me they didn't know who was anymore.  So I thought, "Indeed.  I have adopted strange ways and strange thoughts.  What is going on here?!"

 

Then I decided to leave.  Ever since then my life has been a series of incredible and highly destructive moral failures interspersed with  comebacks.  I'm the biggest sinner I know.

 

I am at a point now where I don't know what to do anymore except pray in an orderly fashion every day and hope I don't do something really, really stupid.

 

So I've been given a life.  There's not much left of it, but I still have it to some degree.  I don't know what the hell to do with it, though.

 

I am not looking for excuses.  It's just that I am not that much to look at.  If I told a vocation director about how my life has actually proceeded in the last few years, he'd no doubt encourage me to stop while I'm ahead and play it safe where I'm at.  Same goes for a potential Catholic wife.  There are plenty of pagan women who'd have no problem with me at all if I just gave up the Catholic thing to "explore possibilities" with them.  But I can't do that.  The Church is my anchor in Reality.  Without it, I'm toast.

 

On the other hand, I feel largely disconnected from Catholics in my local diocese (I generally feel disconnected from everyone period, though).  That's why I am posting here I suppose.

[Nunsense]

Don't tempt me.

 

 

 

Just try. Sad failure on your part, I guarantee. :)

[Nunsense]

I wanted to be a priest (I guess I still do, but I am not a very good person).

 

I joined a religious community to discern, started questioning the moral authority of bishops, then my family started telling me they didn't know who was anymore.  So I thought, "Indeed.  I have adopted strange ways and strange thoughts.  What is going on here?!"

 

Then I decided to leave.  Ever since then my life has been a series of incredible and highly destructive moral failures interspersed with  comebacks.  I'm the biggest sinner I know.

 

I am at a point now where I don't know what to do anymore except pray in an orderly fashion every day and hope I don't do something really, really stupid.

 

So I've been given a life.  There's not much left of it, but I still have it to some degree.  I don't know what the hell to do with it, though.

 

I am not looking for excuses.  It's just that I am not that much to look at.  If I told a vocation director about how my life has actually proceeded in the last few years, he'd no doubt encourage me to stop while I'm ahead and play it safe where I'm at.  Same goes for a potential Catholic wife.  There are plenty of pagan women who'd have no problem with me at all if I just gave up the Catholic thing to "explore possibilities" with them.  But I can't do that.  The Church is my anchor in Reality.  Without it, I'm toast.

 

On the other hand, I feel largely disconnected from Catholics in my local diocese (I generally feel disconnected from everyone period, though).  That's why I am posting here I suppose.

 

 

Get help. You sound depressed. No one is beyond redemption - but depression can cause one to think so. Rejoice that Jesus came for you - not for the righteous. Honestly.

 

As for your life, until it's over, there is always hope. Pray of course, but do something practical about it as well. First, get some help.

[Desert Walker]

I won't take psychoactive drugs because they can actually reduce the strength of inhibition responses to destructive thoughts.

 

I just seem to have trouble maintaining consistent focus and energy long enough to achieve something (but I am also pretty negative, I guess).

 

But for some reason I will never understand I also tend to attract energy vampires into my life.  Then I get entangled in some bizzare fashion with them and stuff in my life just starts falling apart (grades, jobs, healthy friendships, hobbies, interests, family relationships).  Utter insanity ensues.  Three times in the last six years I have had to literally drop everything to recover and pick up the pieces after events like that.  Fortunately, I have the best family in the world...

 

But what's wrong with me?

[Nunsense]

I won't take psychoactive drugs because they can actually reduce the strength of inhibition responses to destructive thoughts.

 

I just seem to have trouble maintaining consistent focus and energy long enough to achieve something (but I am also pretty negative, I guess).

 

But for some reason I will never understand I also tend to attract energy vampires into my life.  Then I get entangled in some bizzare fashion with them and stuff in my life just starts falling apart (grades, jobs, healthy friendships, hobbies, interests, family relationships).  Utter insanity ensues.  Three times in the last six years I have had to literally drop everything to recover and pick up the pieces after events like that.  Fortunately, I have the best family in the world...

 

But what's wrong with me?

 

 

I wasn't suggesting drugs- but counseling of some kind - therapy if you can afford it. You need to shake yourself out of a victim mentality. If you attract 'energy vampires', then try doing something about that - you shouldn't be helpless if you are an adult. you have choices and free will. Focus on what gives you strength and encourages positivity in you.

 

If your family is so good - then ask them to help you get yourself sorted out. A lot of the things that happen to us are the product of our own choices. Those things that we can't control, we need to learn how to work with them or around them.

 

And stop berating yourself all the time. Negative self-talk doesn't do anyone any good unless it is somehow combined with an action plan to change unwanted behaviors! Try encouraging yourself a little more. And make your prayers ones of hope - thank God for the good things in your life and ask for His help to move forward in a positive way. Nothing is impossible for Him, but put in a little effort as well.

 

Prayers for you. :pray:

Edited October 31, 2013 by nunsense

[TheresaThoma]

I find it interesting that so many articles are being written on this topic right now. My 2 cents on this that discerners are now faced with information paralysis. There is so much information available on the internet and it is so easy to travel all over the world that distance and actual contact become less important. Whereas in previous generations one had limited means to travel and communicate so one had few options available  as far as communities to discern with.

I think the most important thing to remember when reading the article is the time frames. He isn't saying the first time that one thinks of becoming a priest or sister they should apply to a seminary but if the idea has stuck around for years then it is time to try it out. On a retreat I was on there was a talk about courtship. One of the suggestions they said was when you start courting to set a time frame (8 months or even a year) and commit to making a decision at the end of that time. I think the same can be said for discernment of religious life. Once you start seriously considering a community give yourself some "deadlines". This might vary based on how often you can visit them and such but if you have actual dates to evaluate where you are and then make a decision it forces you to make a decision rather than just continuing to "discern".

[Nunsense]

I find it interesting that so many articles are being written on this topic right now. My 2 cents on this that discerners are now faced with information paralysis. There is so much information available on the internet and it is so easy to travel all over the world that distance and actual contact become less important. Whereas in previous generations one had limited means to travel and communicate so one had few options available  as far as communities to discern with.

I think the most important thing to remember when reading the article is the time frames. He isn't saying the first time that one thinks of becoming a priest or sister they should apply to a seminary but if the idea has stuck around for years then it is time to try it out. On a retreat I was on there was a talk about courtship. One of the suggestions they said was when you start courting to set a time frame (8 months or even a year) and commit to making a decision at the end of that time. I think the same can be said for discernment of religious life. Once you start seriously considering a community give yourself some "deadlines". This might vary based on how often you can visit them and such but if you have actual dates to evaluate where you are and then make a decision it forces you to make a decision rather than just continuing to "discern".

 

 

Good points. But then sometimes one may be discerning but they know there are obstacles to be overcome before they can actually enter. They aren't being indecisive, they just can't do anything more except discern.

[maximillion]

I so agree with you TT, if I had half the information that is available today I think it would have driven me to distraction......as it was I had limited information and made my choices after prayer and this available info. No one had internet sites and many cloistered communities were more isolated and reclusive than they are now. Had it not been for the Vocation Sisters I would not have known the community I entered even existed.

 

That MUST make it harder. I also admit to thinking on occasion that there is quite a bit of overlap in the establishment of some of the newer communities in terms of their charism and character, or there seems to be to me. That would make it much harder for me if I were discerning RL today.

 

TBH I admire all of you discerning RL or its various associated forms and can only offer my prayers for the direct input of the Holy Spirit........

[Desert Walker]

I wasn't suggesting drugs- but counseling of some kind - therapy if you can afford it. You need to shake yourself out of a victim mentality. If you attract 'energy vampires', then try doing something about that - you shouldn't be helpless if you are an adult. you have choices and free will. Focus on what gives you strength and encourages positivity in you.

 

If your family is so good - then ask them to help you get yourself sorted out. A lot of the things that happen to us are the product of our own choices. Those things that we can't control, we need to learn how to work with them or around them.

 

And stop berating yourself all the time. Negative self-talk doesn't do anyone any good unless it is somehow combined with an action plan to change unwanted behaviors! Try encouraging yourself a little more. And make your prayers ones of hope - thank God for the good things in your life and ask for His help to move forward in a positive way. Nothing is impossible for Him, but put in a little effort as well.

 

Prayers for you. :pray:

 

Most of this is because of my choices. What I don't understand is why I had to end up as a self-negater. I DO feel trapped and helpless.

 

But thank you!

[JLim92]

Nunsense is right. This article is deeply problematic for many of the same reasons.

"It’s a spirit of passivity disguised as “discernment”." - many people in general are indecisive. Some who are catholic will say they are "discerning" as an excuse to be indecisive - thought they aren't actually discerning. Discernment is anything but passive - at least according to the doctors of the Church.

However, many will genuinely try to discern, but just not have the right resources or direction. Well-formed priests are in short supply, not to mention well-formed spiritual directors. When is someone indecisive and when are they actively trying to discern, but lacking proper guidance? If they are the latter, when should, for lack of progress, they just make the jump? That's aren't easy questions to answer and young lay-people - recent converts no less - should be careful giving such strongly worded spiritual advice.

"It’s the same of discerning Priesthood or Religious Life: the actual discernment happens once you’re in the seminary (or convent)." - This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If he actually read books on the subject, he'd know how silly this sounds. Or, as to the earlier post, maybe he is just very clumsy making his point and this isn't what he means.

First of all, thank you for reading my article! Second of all, thank you for criticizing my article! There is no tone of sarcasm whatsoever there. I completely and wholeheartedly believe that conflict allows us to grow and is very healthy. I have been wanting to hear what others think and if they have any suggestions or oppositions to my thoughts.

I agree with you that discernment is anything but passive, hence I put discernment in quotation marks. The fact of the matter is that this is what discernment has become in so many young Catholic adults. I only speak from my experience of the many young Catholics I have encountered. They recognize it too, that they need to be more decisive, more bold.

There is a huge difference between indecisiveness and when they are lacking resources. As someone who's been to a number of diocese in Canada and have seen the different states of vocations I know that many lack resources. But my question is this, if we are truly passionate about our discernment for our vocation, why are we not doing our all to find these resources? Why are we not spending our time and energy to find them, if we are truly, actively discerning? This is not to excuse vocational offices that are not doing their job in providing resources to those who are discerning, but the onus is also on us to actively seek them. I've been to a number of Come & See weekends for different religious orders and had to actively seek them.

Now I do not know your age or if you have found your vocation and are living it out currently. I am not a recent convert, it has been over 7 years since I became Catholic and my spiritual journey has been, well interesting is the best word to describe it. I do not hold any authority at all and my words should not be taken as such. I'm speaking from my experience of what I've seen in young Catholic adults/teens. I wrote it for young adults because sad as it is, this is a trend among a number of FAITHFUL Catholics. I'm not talking about people who have received their sacraments and that is their sole reason for identifying themselves as Catholics. I'm talking about young adults who go to daily Mass, who are involved in their parish, who are involved in some form of outreach. The young Catholic community in Ottawa is filled with vibrant young adults who live their faith out. Yet what I stated in the article is a trend I've seen in a number of them.

I have read numerous material on the priesthood, and seminarian formation but I don't think what I've said was silly at all. Could you clarify why you think it's silly? I've heard from numerous vocational directors that the seminary is where they form good men. I know of many married Catholic men who have spent time in the seminary and they say that their time in the seminary was vital in forming them to be good men. I have numerous friends in the seminary in my home diocese, Toronto, who tell me of their formation. I firmly believe that the seminary is not only for those who have, without a doubt, a surety of their vocation to the priesthood. Maybe it wasn't articulated properly in my article but my words were to those who've been discerning for a long time about their vocation but have a reserved attitude. If they're 90% sure the priesthood or religious life is for them, would you not want them to enter the seminary or join a convent? Would you want them to live in that 10% of doubt? I want people to take a leap of faith, not be stupid about their decisions. Being impulsive is childish, but being bold and courageous are virtues. There are huge differences between the two. God calls us to step out on the water, just as He did to Peter. But we need to have faith in Him and in ourselves, or rather God's faith in us. If now is not the right time to trust in Him, when is? If we are not willing to follow His will now, when will we? Again, being rash and impulsive is not what we should do, but we should be bold enough to make the right decisions and trust that His will be done. After all, He is all powerful and can do anything even bring something good out of something bad (St. Augustine on our "Fortunate Fall" right?).

Thank you for your words. I learned a lot from seeing it in such a different point of view. Maybe it's different because I'm surrounded by so many young active Catholics (and being one myself!) and maybe the message was different because you are not a young Catholic (I really don't know your age! Correct me if I'm wrong please). Being young, we are more susceptible to being impulsive but we are also capable of being bold. All that we do is not impulsive, the radical nature of our boldness should not be mistaken as rashness. I hope you were able to see where I was coming from. But I thank you for your words and await your reply! God bless!