Question For Those Who Have Been In Religious Life

[maximillion]

I wake at between 4am and 5am every morning. This is not because I got used to rising at 4.30am in the monastery, I just do wake then. After about 30/40 min I fall back to sleep.

 

I have done this since I was about two years old.

[NotreDame]

As I said "I'm not arguing curiousing, but like you giving my experience for the benefit of younger readers.."

 

I'm speaking from my experience in religious life, I'm not guessing about myself.  I need 7-8 hours sleep in one chunk.  period.  Some people are in my boat, others aren't.  Likewise, some people have the intellectual aptitude for advanced study, others don't.  Likewise some people can do physical labor for 12 hours a day, others can't. 

 

People need to be objective and honest (ie. prudent) about how their abilities match up with the what's required at each place.

 

 

[Gabriela]

As I said "I'm not arguing curiousing, but like you giving my experience for the benefit of younger readers.."

 

I'm speaking from my experience in religious life, I'm not guessing about myself.  I need 7-8 hours sleep in one chunk.  period.  Some people are in my boat, others aren't.  Likewise, some people have the intellectual aptitude for advanced study, others don't.  Likewise some people can do physical labor for 12 hours a day, others can't. 

 

People need to be objective and honest (ie. prudent) about how their abilities match up with the what's required at each place.

 

I wasn't trying to argue with you, ND. I apologize if it seemed that way. I was just suggesting that, oftentimes we think we're incapable of doing something, and then, under the right circumstances, we discover we are in fact capable after all. I think that's a common experience in religious life, which seems impossible to so many—until suddenly God makes it possible.

 

I appreciate you sharing your experience.

[NotreDame]

curiousing, you crack me up :giveup2:

[Gabriela]

curiousing, you crack me up :giveup2:

 

I'm serious, though. I know a lot of times people think I'm arguing when all I'm trying to do is have a conversation, share (possibly divergent) experiences, and maybe disagree. It upsets me that sometimes I get the impression on Phatmass that people can't disagree without someone perceiving it as an argument. Don't get me wrong: Sometimes I argue (like in the HPV thread). But here I really just meant to show how amesome that second sleep article is.

 

I don't want to fight. I just want to share new ideas... I hope it doesn't come off as anything else!

 

EDIT: To be completely honest: I often feel really misunderstood here in PM. (I'm sure we've all had that experience! ;-) I really would be grateful if someone could point out to me how it's possible for me to disagree with others without seeming like I'm trying to argue. Recently I've been wording my posts VERY carefully so as to avoid that, but it doesn't seem to help. I don't know what more I can do to avoid that impression, because I seriously don't understand where it's coming from. So if anyone can help me understand, I would be very appreciative!

Edited November 23, 2013 by curiousing

[maximillion]

Have to say that of all the people I encounter on VS (I rarely inhabit the rest of phatmass) you are the least argumentative curiousing.

 

Stating the opposing or an alternative case is not arguing. Not where I come from anyways!

[Catherine Therese]

Something that caught my attention when I first read this more than a day ago was the notion of the stakes being high, back in your first post in the thread. I've sat back and thought about it, and about what I've learned from my own experiences, for a day or so before answering.

I know what you mean, because I have been there and can relate… but I wonder if we aren't all missing the point a little, if we dwell on this feeling too much?

I mean, if this is God's call, and our will and His will are aligned, then somehow it'll all work out in the wash, won't it? If we are afraid to make a mistake, say something that is subsequently disapproved of by a superior or to withhold information about ourselves that really we should disclose… aren't we really just saying that we want to make this religious life thing work out whether or not it's actually God's will at all? We're so invested in it that we stop trusting in Him and we try to wrest control of the situation for ourselves, to ensure it goes our way?

It's a dangerous business, discerning religious life. We're asked to examine our desires as part of this process, and even to cultivate these desires… and yet we're also asked to be detached from our own will and committed entirely to His.

We really do need the self-knowledge and self-possession to know the desires God has written on our hearts, and to choose it.At the same time, detachment from our own will and abandonment to Providence is so incredibly important. A delicate balance to be struck there! And the source of some of the interior suffering and confusion that many of us experience as a natural part of the discernment process is the reality that most of us probably DONT strike the right balance ;-) I know that in my case personally, I've swung between extremes a few times, trying to settle at that equilibrium to which grace guides me. Pretty sure I'm still not there yet.

In the meantime, by way of a more direct response to the question asked, I think if the situation is something important, such as a health situation, or perhaps pertaining to a very real fear we might have of something pertaining to a duty, or any other real difficulty, we need to be able to be honest about our difficulty with our superior, whilst still entirely abandoned to Providence in the outcome that follows. Withholding is spiritually unhealthy and can in the long term lead to a level of resentment that can be a vocation-killer. If the result of the disclosure is that the judgement is made that this candidate is not suitable for religious life in a given community, then it is better that this is determined sooner rather than later, and much grace and merit can follow if the disappointment of the outcome is borne with abandonment and love.

During my postulant year I required surgery. And this required that I travel back to Australia for the sheer affordability of the treatment. I knew that this COULD be a deal-breaker. They might send me home. And I lived in fear of this outcome for a little while. But I needed the treatment, and so I needed to be honest. I was sent for the surgery with the blessing of my superior and of Mother. I was given several weeks to recover after the procedure and was received back with open arms when I was well enough to travel the trans-Pacific leg independently to get back to the community. This was a HUGE concession on the part of the community, and a huge investment of trust in me - an ignorant postulant - and the manner in which I would represent the community whilst wearing their postulant uniform out in public for several weeks on my own. I mean, really, this was HUGE and generous. And they did all of this knowing that in all likelihood the need for this surgical procedure would be a recurring thing, every few years or so. I still don't understand how this WASNT a deal-breaker. I can only come to the conclusion that God wanted me there for longer, and that when the time came to leave, He wanted it to be my free choice, and for reasons OTHER than health. My superiors made their decisions governed entirely by charity and what was good for me and for the common good of the community, and were attentive to the guidance of the Holy Spirit in so doing.

So sometimes we can be sustained in our vocation even though we require quite significant concessions or helps due to our own weaknesses or circumstances. We can trust that God will work His will in us where we are genuinely striving to fulfil it.

Characteristically verbose, I know.
I just really felt like it was an important thing to think about. These are just my thoughts and experiences, so please don't take anything I've said as a personal remark or too much to heart if it challenges what you think/feel on the matter - just offering my thoughts as they stand.

[NotreDame]

EDIT: To be completely honest: I often feel really misunderstood here in PM. (I'm sure we've all had that experience! ;-) I really would be grateful if someone could point out to me how it's possible for me to disagree with others without seeming like I'm trying to argue. Recently I've been wording my posts VERY carefully so as to avoid that, but it doesn't seem to help. I don't know what more I can do to avoid that impression, because I seriously don't understand where it's coming from. So if anyone can help me understand, I would be very appreciative!

 

Relax... "crack me up" means "you make me laugh", but I couldn't find an emoticon that really looked like laughing to me and I found the white flag funny ;)

[Gabriela]

Something that caught my attention when I first read this more than a day ago was the notion of the stakes being high, back in your first post in the thread. I've sat back and thought about it, and about what I've learned from my own experiences, for a day or so before answering.

I know what you mean, because I have been there and can relate… but I wonder if we aren't all missing the point a little, if we dwell on this feeling too much?

I mean, if this is God's call, and our will and His will are aligned, then somehow it'll all work out in the wash, won't it? If we are afraid to make a mistake, say something that is subsequently disapproved of by a superior or to withhold information about ourselves that really we should disclose… aren't we really just saying that we want to make this religious life thing work out whether or not it's actually God's will at all? We're so invested in it that we stop trusting in Him and we try to wrest control of the situation for ourselves, to ensure it goes our way?

It's a dangerous business, discerning religious life. We're asked to examine our desires as part of this process, and even to cultivate these desires… and yet we're also asked to be detached from our own will and committed entirely to His.

 

I think all your points are good, CT, but this is the part that really stood out to me (aside from your former community's amazing patience and charity :)). I think you worded well one of the central paradoxes of discernment/entrance/postulancy/novitiate. On the one hand, we have desires; on the other, we surrender our will to God's. And on the one hand, we don't want to botch things up by being our stupid selfish selves; but on the other hand, maybe we're too selfish to be in religious life and just can't see that at the moment...

 

That "wresting control of the situation" is quite poignant. But it also makes me wonder: Is it idealistic to assume that God's will is always done with regard to religious vocations? Has no community ever kicked out some poor postulant as the result of a misunderstanding, or at the stoopid devil's tempting, or just plain against God's will? Again, on the one hand, we ought to trust in God that His will will be done, and that if it's not, He will bring good out of it anyway. But on the other hand, we wonder constantly if God isn't asking us to be a bit more cautious, a bit more reserved, or whatever, so that His will may be done without our screwing it up. And that's where ambiguity and confusion about the "should I disclose this or not?" enters, I think. We try to discern God's will in the matter, but all we can think about is what the result will be for our future in the community. It can be really hard to separate those things.

 

Is that all clear? I feel like I rambled myself! LOL!

 

Something "deeper" also flitted through my mind as I was writing the second paragraph. I think about this rather often, but am not sure I can word it clearly yet. I'll try: Have you ever heard of the "co-operators in creation" phrase? I can't remember if I heard that in Judaism or Christianity... It means basically that God created all things, but when He created us, He created us to cooperate with Him in (further) creation. And so man creates. Not just stuff, but also his own path in life. I thought of this in this context, I think, because of how it relates to that tension between trusting in God's will but also doing one's best not to botch things up, so that God's will may be done. And it can be hard to distinguish (and agonizing after the fact, especially if there were severe consequences) whether the desire to disclose a limitation/preference is a sign that that's necessary and so cooperation with God's will, or whether that desire is just an expression of one's own spiritual weaknesses at the time (e.g., selfishness, unwillingness to surrender, etc.) that one should fight harder to overcome.

 

Hopefully THAT makes sense! :idontknow:

Edited November 23, 2013 by curiousing

[Gabriela]

Have to say that of all the people I encounter on VS (I rarely inhabit the rest of phatmass) you are the least argumentative curiousing.

 

Stating the opposing or an alternative case is not arguing. Not where I come from anyways!

 

Thank you very much for this, max. It is more encouraging than you know!   :kiss: