Reasons To Leave A Monastery

[littlePaula]

The appropriate canon to refer to is this one: (concerning the governance of institutes)

 

Can. 630 §1. Superiors are to recognize the due freedom of their members regarding the sacrament of penance and direction of conscience, without prejudice, however, to the discipline of the institute.

§2. According to the norm of proper law, superiors are to be concerned that suitable confessors are available to the members, to whom the members can confess frequently.

§3. In monasteries of nuns, in houses of formation, and in more numerous lay communities, there are to be ordinary confessors approved by the local ordinary after consultation with the community; nevertheless, there is no obligation to approach them.

§4. Superiors are not to hear the confessions of subjects unless the members request it on their own initiative.

§5. Members are to approach superiors with trust, to whom they can freely and on their own initiative open their minds. Superiors, however, are forbidden to induce the members in any way to make a manifestation of conscience to them.

[AnneLine]

OK, I appreciate the reference, LittlePaula... and it is wise and good as far as it goes.. but what does it do for a sister who is being told the ONLY person she can go to for confession is the ONE confessor provided for the community?  Because this does occur.  And I don't think it is a good situation!

 

And what about a situation where a sister is told point blank, the superiors will give you all the direction you will need.... or we do not let the sisters have outside spiritual directors?  Or "Father is not interested in the problems of postulants; just make your confession and leave the confessional."  

 

Or that the ONLY confessors available seem to be members of the same religious tradition/family/institute as the sisters.

 

Short of deciding to leave, what kinds of options does a sister in these situations have available to her?  Because... if she argues with the superior, she is going to have a problem.  And if she doesn't, she might as well as reconcile herself to living the situation(s) outlined above.

 

I don't want to sound grumpy, but I have heard of these situations from SEVERAL people who have left religious institutes... and experienced some of it myself.   

 

And I compare and contrast that with what seems to happen to men in seminaries, or in religious institutes, and there are SEVERAL confessors available to them... and/or they are encouraged to have someone outside... or because they simply have more freedom to come and go, they can take advantage of confessors available to the 'general public' in a parish.

 

I'm curious to know if I am the ONLY one who has seen this kind of thing...?

Edited December 11, 2013 by AnneLine

[maximillion]

I have seen it and experienced it!

 

Though it was a ling time ago, I know it can and does still happen today.

 

When I first went to France I was told there was one confessor (who did not speak English). I was rather perturbed but was told it didn't matter and that Father would give me absolution if I just confessed in English. It was a bit weird for a while, but we did have an extraordinary confessor who spoke a bit of English so I went to him until I was fluent in French.

 

Much much later on, when things in the community became contentious, our external confessor suddenly disappeared and there was only one priest to whom we could confess or obtain direction. My objections brought me into direct conflict with our newest Superior and eventually my vow of Obedience was called into question on this point.

Things degenerated pretty quickly for me after this and it was a major influence in my asking for exclaustration.

 

It is essential that there is provision of an extraordinary confessor, and that someone being told their difficulties/fears/concerns are not to be spoken of in the confessional is not healthy.

[Chiquitunga]

AnneLine, I greatly appreciate your posts... I feel like I could have written each of them myself. I have heard all the things you have said from a number of women who entered and left communities too, and this is something I have been trying to understand and get to the bottom of myself for a while. I experienced this too (not in a Carmel to make that clear) I have since been trying to understand how this works in Carmel though... and have heard a variety of experiences. Each seems to handle this differently, some better than others, or from what I have heard.

 

Alas, I am on phatmass at too odd of an hour to think very clearly! so I'll have to come back when I can (can't get online much during the day though...) One book that I think would be worth getting and reading on this, 

 

Ttyl for now! :sleep2:

[Chiquitunga]

link there didn't work, here it is - http://www.amazon.com/Canonical-Protections-Unwarranted-Intrusions-Conscience/dp/1490386351

[maximillion]

I wanted to say how much I appreciate this thread.

 

I know that most of us have good experiences in our discernment and many come to a difficult if needful decision to leave RL for themselves, but it is possible to be misty eyed over thinking about what can possibly not be okay about RL and I think it is healthy that we can both talk openly about this and make others aware.

[marigold]

internal forum is basically a manifestation of conscience. Whatever is learned by someone in the internal forum (manifestations of conscience) cannot be revealed by them or acted upon in the external forum.

When someone is your superior and is responsible for the decision about whether you will continue, or choosing what classes you will take, or what house you will be sent to, or even what chores you get assigned --- all of it in the external forum... its not appropriate to have that person be the person to whom you divulge your conscience. Because the conscience is a sacred thing and people do not have a right to know it just because they are in a position of authority.

this is what I was told by a spiritual director I had immediately after I came out.

Lilllabettt, thank you for putting this so clearly!

It is so important to have your head screwed on right in those situations. I know that I contributed to a superior being able to blur the lines between spiritual direction and monastery formation by temporarily suspending my critical thinking. I wonder if women entering communities are more susceptible to that, because we're brought up to be more acquiescent and willing to please? When I think how completely vulnerable I was, how I encouraged it in myself because I thought it was virtuous to tell the superior everything she wanted to know, even out of idle curiosity (and therefore sinful to want to withhold information), I thank God from the bottom of my heart that he helped me eventually switch my brain back on!

Half the problem is that you do want to be an open book in that situation - I went in giving 100% and really wanted to be changed and formed into the best nun I could be. I thought if I did as I was told, in all innocence, then it would all work out. God would not allow anything really bad to happen. But he did, and then he took me through it. So I guess he is as good as his word. But I certainly will never give myself as unthinkingly to any person again. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

[NotreDame]

As far as the experiences that I had (and as have been related to me by many, many others) in the convent/monastery, my gut tells me there is a little bit of a double standard on how males and females are handled in formation.   This is my own opinion, and I'm stating it as such, by the way.   The men often seem to have a lot more freedom in general,

 

Well, many men in religious life are also in formation for the priesthood, so there is more canon law covering these men and the situation also necessitates more oversight from the Church in general, since if you ordain someone and put him in the community he represents the whole church to the public.  

 

However, I assure you there are massive abuses within men's groups as well.  As always, the Legion of Christ is the easiest example, but I was with a community that also had major problems in this area.  They both have their own seminaries too, so unlike some orders that send that their seminarians to a seminary run by someone else that could have a mix of candidates and priests, they keep everything in-house.  This means that seminarians are possibly *never* outside the view and control of that order and that they might never have access to outside opinions/counsel/direction.

 

In my opinion, when combined with a flawed understanding of the vow of obedience, keeping confession/SD/formation all in-house - in many cases even allowing confession to superiors - creates environment where it is all too easy to manipulate those who are in formation, be it manipulating their discernment and conscience, or manipulating them in a million other ways.   In fact, in some cases it's design this way on purpose to allow manipulation and control.   The LoC are the best example of this, but not the only one.

 

The group I was with probably realized that for them to do what they wanted to do and say what they wanted to say without getting challenged, they would need to keep everything in house.  For example, allowing those in formation to get direction from an educated dominican priest (and to share all the questionable things going on) would have resulted in many of them "discerning out" of these orders - and it may bring investigators from the diocese or Vatican as well.

 

It's important to remember that just because people wear habits (or cassocks), it doesn't make them saints.  We know the larger orders are the work of God, but some of these smaller ones?  In many cases it could be more the will of the men founding them. 

Edited December 11, 2013 by NotreDame

[NotreDame]

The appropriate canon to refer to is this one: (concerning the governance of institutes)

 

 

Thanks LP!  Good to have that!  Hadn't seen that before!

 

link there didn't work, here it is - http://www.amazon.com/Canonical-Protections-Unwarranted-Intrusions-Conscience/dp/1490386351

 

Is anyone in touch with this Therese Ivers woman?  I really want to read her blog, but all the old posts seem to be password protected.  I "sign up" to the blog and log-in it doesn't change anything.  All the "read more" links to see full blog posts just ends up redirecting to the front page.  This happens on multiple browsers, so I'm pretty sure it's on her end. 

[Maggyie]

AnneLine, you are right that the rules for men's communities are usually more lenient. Although of course there are many exceptions. I do think in part it is a result of gender disparities in human history that became part of tradition and were never dislodged from the orders that absorbed them. I remember the first time I discovered this, how shocked I was, and how it made it seem like the women were considered to be children who needed to be watched and controlled more carefully. .

[OnlySunshine]

AnneLine, you are right that the rules for men's communities are usually more lenient. Although of course there are many exceptions. I do think in part it is a result of gender disparities in human history that became part of tradition and were never dislodged from the orders that absorbed them. I remember the first time I discovered this, how shocked I was, and how it made it seem like the women were considered to be children who needed to be watched and controlled more carefully. .

 

I always wondered why men had shorter formation periods.  As an example, the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal have 1 year of novitiate and 6 years (I believe) of first vows before final vows are made.  The women's side of the same order has 2 years of novitiate and 6 years of first vows.  Why do women get 1 more year?  The reason, I've heard, is that women have the natural desire to have a family of their own, but that still didn't make sense because I've heard of men who desire to get married and have children, too, but maybe it's because it's stronger for women?  Whatever the case, that threw me off when I first found out.

[arfink]

I always wondered why men had shorter formation periods.  As an example, the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal have 1 year of novitiate and 6 years (I believe) of first vows before final vows are made.  The women's side of the same order has 2 years of novitiate and 6 years of first vows.  Why do women get 1 more year?  The reason, I've heard, is that women have the natural desire to have a family of their own, but that still didn't make sense because I've heard of men who desire to get married and have children, too, but maybe it's because it's stronger for women?  Whatever the case, that threw me off when I first found out.

 

My view? Excuse me for being cynical, but I know that most men would walk out if they got put through the wringer as much as most women seem to put up with. I have no idea why this is, and I'm not claiming women are worse than men, but I've seen it happen.

[AnneLine]

Thank you to all of you who added feedback... keep it coming!

 

Beyond the whole question of what is technically legal under canon law, one of the things I have noticed in women who leave is that many of them just found the structure and lifestyle restricting.  Granted, most thought they knew what they were getting into... and they wanted it, most of them.... but there is a difference between WANTING something and finding out that when it is tried, it just ISN'T a good fit.  And I think that can sometimes take some time to get in focus.  It's hard to know whether once one is under vows and living in the main community (be it an active ministry or just as a professed nun or priest/brother in a cloister) will work in the long term.  Sometimes even someone who WANTS that lifestyle finds out that the structure just doesn't work in supporting their prayer life and/or ministry.  That was certainly the case for me.... I saw the others relaxing into the lifestyle, and I was getting tenser and tenser and tenser.  And less and less able to pray.   Finally, working with my postulant mistress (because I couldn't talk to anyone else.....) I realized that was a sign I wasn't meant to be there... and I have never regretted that decision.  (and there were other factors as well...)

 

And.... 

 

I think Maggie, Mater and ARFink are making some good points, too, about the structure that is imposed on women vs that on men.  (Notre Dame noted it as well).   I can remember at one point a friend noted that there really seemed to be a huge difference in what was being asked of women going into religious life versus the men going into the life .... what women were being asked to bring in terms of clothing, dowries, etc., and in just the kind of structure we would be experiencing in formation AND in life after formation was SO VERY different from what our male friends who were entering communities were being asked to bring.  Remember what NonNovi's 'list of things to bring' looked like?  I don't remember things like aprons or sewing kits.... ;)

 

And... I have a good friend who joined one of the orders a year or so ago, and his first year as a postulant was spent living in a regular community, but pretty much with freedom to come and go at pleasure, he had money for his use, he was allowed to visit home several times, came and visited Mr. AL and me several times.   He could call us on his cell phone.   He could go on long, solitary walks.  He also spent time in classes, in doing ministry with the Community, and in praying with them and getttnig to know them.   During the summer, he entered into his novitiate year.  He is much more restricted, no cell phone, no money, but he and his brother novices still can go out and have an afternoon on the town occasionally, so to speak.  He can occasionally send out an email.   He has some free time each day!   He is learning, he is growing, but he is being treated like a human being!   After his first vows, he'll be able to go home... and will have much more freedom once again when he starts living out his religious life (God willing!)    I don't think this is the case with most of the middle-of-the-road and certainly not with the more traditional women's communities.

 

Another factor people have mentioned to me was ability/inability to continue healthy relationships with family and friends outside the community.  Was this an issue for any of you, or a factor in anyone who left?

 

And people have talked about restrictions on reading materials... only being allowed to read certain books, or certain types of books.  In some cases, just during formation; in other cases, a permanent restriction.  Again, was this a factor for anyone?  

 

Again, we are NOT trying to bad-mouth any communities... just tring to see what factors lead religious and/or seminarians, etc. to decide that they need to leave....

 

Edited December 12, 2013 by AnneLine

[AnneLine]

Wanted to rephrase those last couple of questions --- were either of these factors in YOUR OWN departures OR in the departures of others who have shared their stories with you?  

 

I clarify this because I want to be ABSOLUTELY certain no one has any compulsion give up their own personal story on the internet.

 

Peace to all...

[Cherie]

Wow, this is a good discussion. So much I want to say, but not really able to say it all as clearly as I know I'd want to.

 

Sometimes even someone who WANTS that lifestyle finds out that the structure just doesn't work in supporting their prayer life and/or ministry.  That was certainly the case for me.... I saw the others relaxing into the lifestyle, and I was getting tenser and tenser and tenser.  And less and less able to pray.   Finally, working with my postulant mistress (because I couldn't talk to anyone else.....) I realized that was a sign I wasn't meant to be there... and I have never regretted that decision.  (and there were other factors as well...)

What you say there, "saw others relaxing into the lifestyle, and I was getting tenser and tenser and tenser" describes my own experience very well. There were many other factors, for sure, but part of what forced me to question whether I had an authentic religious vocation--because I had WANTED a vocation so, so badly, so I didn't want to question it--was the fact that despite everything I did--trying to pray more, become holier, more obedient, etc.--I only became more terribly miserable. It really wasn't a good fit. I remember years before I left, I described some of what I was feeling to a Sister (not a Superior) and she said, "God doesn't desire that for His children..." (meaning, God doesn't want you to be miserable like that, so maybe you don't have a vocation.) At that point, I was terrified of thinking of leaving.

 

Another factor people have mentioned to me was ability/inability to continue healthy relationships with family and friends outside the community.  Was this an issue for any of you, or a factor in anyone who left?

 

And people have talked about restrictions on reading materials... only being allowed to read certain books, or certain types of books.  In some cases, just during formation; in other cases, a permanent restriction.  Again, was this a factor for anyone?

Yes, the inability to continue healthy relationships with family and friends was certainly a factor. I remember, when I wanted to tell my mom that I was considering leaving during a family visit so that she could be prepared for the possibility, I felt like a hunted animal -- hiding away on a walking path, constantly looking to the left, right, in front of, and behind me to make sure there weren't any Sisters lurking nearby who could have heard me and gotten me into trouble for mentioning it to my mother. Not a healthy situation. All our outgoing AND incoming mail was read by our Superiors, which also meant I was unable to express anything remotely true to how I was really feeling. I felt trapped by that, honestly.

 

The restrictions on reading materials personally did not bother me much.

[Cherie]

I personally think it is very dangerous to have a spiritual director from within the community.  There are too many opportunities for the director, subconsciously, to influence you in a way that isn't objective.  The other issue is that you may have to live with the person at some point.  If you bared your soul to them when you were a novice and now its ten years later and you have to live with them it isn't really a fair or easy transition to expect people to make.  Imagine you were in an awkward difficult vocation phase and that's all that person knows about you... and now you have to live with them.  

 

It also seems like if you HAVE to have a director in the community that the community is afraid of something... I know I'm reaching and I'm not saying its the only reason but it seems to cut a community off from the greater Church.  We have to be open to how God is speaking to us through a variety of sources while still being grounded in the charism and traditions of our own communities.  My spiritual director is a religious sister in another community, one that is very different than my own, and she has helped my prayer life so much because she makes me see my own charism and community through the eyes of someone on the outside.  It adds so much depth to my prayer life. Sometimes she suggests things that are outside, though not in opposition to,  the spirituality of my community.  Still it always enriches and never denigrates.  I'm so grateful to her.  

 

I agree with all you have said here, particularly, "There are too many opportunities for the director, subconsciously, to influence you in a way that isn't objective." That was my own personal experience. I had expressed my serious doubts at certain times throughout my entire formation, and that, paired with my behavior (not BAD behavior per se, just behavior that would make one question whether or not I had a vocation) while in the convent, makes me truly believe a "more established" community (I don't want to say "healthier," but that was what I originally wrote) would have recognized my lack of a true religious vocation very, very early on.
 

 

EDITED TO ADD: Something of a "caveat," which is that I know my former community has changed some things about their formation. While my previous experiences did happen, and they did many things which were in my opinion unhealthy, the community could be--and is likely--very different from the one they were when I was there. They could definitely have cleared up any unhealthy aspects of their formation since I have been there. I mention this in case anyone knows the community I was with. My experiences aren't meant to discourage anyone from discerning a vocation with them if they feel thus called.

[emma8201986]

Anneline, What you say resonates with me as I go thru the discernment process.  I am an adult - a college graduate and a teacher.  I have been in the work place and living on my own for several years.  I would think that most communities would want a person with my maturity and life experience - that these qualities in any applicant enrich the community and make better sisters.  My grandmother told me a story about something that happened to her as a 2nd grader in Catholic school.  Some kid wrote the  f word on her yellow rain slicker.  When her mother saw it, she called the school furious that the nuns let my grandmother walk home with that written on her coat.  The principal did not know what the word meant.  I guess she probably entered at 16 or so and was pretty sheltered.

 

I understand that many of the restrictions placed on women versus men in religious life were imposed during a time when women were not considered equal and needed more protection but that is no longer true.   I visited the DSMMEs and the Nashies - both beautiful communities, but I felt that in neither place would I be treated like an adult.  I know I would find the constant scheduling and little personal time difficult and some of the petty rules seem pointless - why no mail in advent?  Men in formation get mail, why not women?  I understand that some of the rules are disciplines designed to foster obedience but I could think of many ways to accomplish this goal without them.  Years ago, a novice mistress could tell an 18 year old novice just out of high school - "you do it just because" and she would accept that.  We don't live in that world any more.  I was really very sad when I came to the realization that the DSMMEs and Nashies were not for me - I loved the youth and vitality I found in both communities.  So I can really understand how some of the practices would cause someone to leave.  The community I am seriously considering now certainly has rules  - there are limitations on visits home and family visits but the community also involves families in the formation process - parents of sisters in formation meet and get to know other parents.  There is certainly no way to know whether religious life is right for you until you live it but communities can make the transition much easier by treating new members as adults.  I don't mean to criticize any community I mentioned here - I'm just saying that they were not the right fit for me.

[beatitude]

Emma, not receiving mail in Lent and Advent is a very common religious practice, and it's not related to the vow of obedience - it's because Lent and Advent (especially Lent) are supposed to be 'desert' periods for the deepening of prayer. Post is saved up for Christmas and Easter. This applies to men in monastic communities too, but I'm not sure about seminaries - as seminarians tend to be surrounded by people day in and day out anyway, there would be little point as the custom wouldn't foster any greater solitude for them.

[NotreDame]

As to the difference between men vs women orders... I don't know exactly which groups you are referring to so I'm having to make interpolate, but perhaps the biggest difference you describe isn't so much a difference between male vs female orders as it is a difference of active vs contemplative (penitential) ones?

 

Most guys are entering active orders where they will also be trained for the priesthood.  Meanwhile, active orders for women is a relatively new thing and many of these groups are contemplative/penintential, right? 

 

Not sure about this, but tossing it out there as a hypothesis.

Edited December 12, 2013 by NotreDame

[AveMariaPurissima]

I'm not sure if it was "spiritual direction" per se, but in my community, those of us in formation were encouraged to talk to the professed Sisters whenever we were having difficulties.  It didn't have to be our superior, so long as the Sister was professed.  Some of them definitely helped me out a lot, for which I am very grateful.  I admit, though, that there were times toward the end that I felt pressured to stay...basically the implication that I could leave, but it would be a really dumb decision.

Confessors: we didn't have that much choice, at least not that I was aware of.  We were supposed to go to Confession at least once a week, and we pretty much always went to the chaplain (once in a while to a visiting priest).