Divine Office, Latin Vs English

[Totally Franciscan]

I was just wondering if those who had been or are in religious life could help me with this.  Although I studied Latin for two years in high school, I wonder how one can pray the Divine Office without knowing what one is saying/chanting.  This is posing quite a dilemma for me.  Thanks for any help you can give me.

[Mary's Child]

I think at least in some communities that use the Latin Version of the office they have the English translations on the opposite page or another column on the same page. Also I think you learn what the words mean when you praying it every day I hope that is at least a bit helpful.

[arfink]

I never could understand why anyone would pray the Office in Latin, except because they wanted to be dead-language hipsters.

[AnneLine]

When I first joined our Secular Order, we prayed the Office in Latin.  It helped to have the English on one side of the page, but I never was able to make the transition to being able to pray in a language that was pretty foreign to me, and keeping my mind on the prayer.  While I loved the concept of praying the Latin liturgy, I found it to be a hindrance rather than a help.  Even after studying some of the language, and even though I knew what the psalms meant, it still was a huge distraction.

 

I was also struck by a comment from a very Holy Carmelite nun.  I had said to her that I was sad  that the Nuns in our local Carmelite Monastery had started praying in the vernacular (Spanish for them) because I liked being able to follow-along and chant with them and I had the Latin and English words but not the Spanish.  Her comment was, "AnneLine, I understand what you are saying, and I resisted the idea of not using the Latin myself.... but do you know, for the first time in nearly 50 years, I am finally able to really understand and pray the liturgy?  Until now, I have united myself with my Spouse, and I have generally understood what was going on, but this is the first year I have really appreciated the Liturgy in all its beauty and subtlety.  I never realized what I was missing."

 

I think it really depends on the person.  For some, the beauty of the language and the richness of the way it conveys the meanings of the words, is compensation for the struggle with the language.  And for others, they just lose themselves into time spent with God.  But for some of us, praying in a language that is more familiar can have some benefits.

 

My 2 cents....

[Chiquitunga]

I think at least in some communities that use the Latin Version of the office they have the English translations on the opposite page or another column on the same page. 

 

That would be neat, but I don't believe there is a version of the Liturgy of the Hours printed like that. In the Carmels that I know of that have the full Office in Latin, none of them have that. It's all Latin, except I know in at least a few of them they will have an English translation in a separate book of the Readings from Matins. It would be wonderful if there were a version of the LOTH like this! I have heard one Carmel express interest in getting such an Office if it were ever printed. So far I've only seen this one with Lauds and Vespers, http://www.amazon.com/Lauds-Vespers-Latin-English-Enlarged-Edition/dp/0970402295/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388780554&sr=8-1&keywords=lauds+and+vespers  and this one with Compline, http://www.amazon.com/The-Office-Compline-Samuel-Weber/dp/158617455X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388780783&sr=8-1&keywords=compline+latin+english  But there may be others out there I don't know of.

 

For the old breviary prayed by the JMJ Carmels (& Morristown, NJ now I think) they also only use an office book with all Latin. I think I have heard of a new printing of the old breviary with English on one side, and Latin on the other. But this was the Roman Rite and they use the Carmelite Rite. Here it is, http://www.baroniuspress.com/book.php?wid=56&bid=59#tab=tab-1

 

If I ended up in a community that prayed the whole Office in Latin, I would love it if the translation could be on the other side.

 

Also I think you learn what the words mean when you praying it every day I hope that is at least a bit helpful.

 

 

I believe so, at least for the the Little Hours like Compline where it's the same for the most part on each day of the week. :like:

Edited January 3, 2014 by Chiquitunga

[EmilyAnn]

I spent three weeks on a live-in with a community that says the Divine Office in Latin, knowing not one word of Latin. As a guest, I was given booklets with both the Latin and English so I could follow along, and the postulant at the time used those same booklets. It had two columns, one with the Latin and one with the English. Obviously the professed sisters had the full books in just Latin, but they had learnt Latin enough by then.

 

Even over just 3 weeks, the immersion in Latin so many times a day plus Latin lessons in the novitiate I learnt so much. I was worried about it at first but I found that it really worked for me and I still often pray in Latin. One can only try and see if it resonates with them or not. 

[Antigonos]

I find that there are so many nuances in Hebrew which get lost in translation, that I haven't prayed in English for years.  But that has a lot to do with the way Hebrew is constructed, which is entirely different from Indo-European languages, so I don't know if that would be true with Latin [I have two years of high school Latin, but of course that was geared to reading Caesar, not ecclesiastical works].  Hebrew word roots can lead to connections between both words and concepts in a way that Latin doesn't. [I'll skip the long lecture here]

 

However, learning prayers in a different language is not really all that difficult after the initial adjustment.  Even in Orthodox synagogues, prayerbooks are usually bi-lingual.  Also the vocabulary for prayer is not particularly large, although it is true that the Psalms are sometimes more difficult, using obscure Hebrew words or more poetic ones.

 

Private prayer is another issue; I would expect that most people pray in their mother tongue, and did, even in the days of the Latin Mass.

 

One of the benefits of Latin liturgy is that, no matter where you are in the world, it will be the same.  Having the Mass in the vernacular means that visitors from another country haven't got a clue what is being said.

[OnlySunshine]

I never could understand why anyone would pray the Office in Latin, except because they wanted to be dead-language hipsters.

 

Hey, now!  Don't knock Latin!  Latin rocks and is a very interesting language to learn.  I'm getting ready to take Beg. Latin II on Monday after taking the first class and getting an "A" in it.  Latin is NOT a dead language!

[brandelynmarie]

Mater, a dead language is one that is not spoken everyday on a regular basis.
;)


& arfink, call me a total dead-language hipster cause l do love Latin :p

[arfink]

Hey, now!  Don't knock Latin!  Latin rocks and is a very interesting language to learn.  I'm getting ready to take Beg. Latin II on Monday after taking the first class and getting an "A" in it.  Latin is NOT a dead language!

 

Well, having taken several years of Latin in high school, and a couple more in seminary, I can tell you that being so enthusiastic about Latin does indeed make you a dead language hipster. I myself am a recovering dead language hipster. Learn from my suffering: don't do it! :P

 

:hehe:

Edited January 4, 2014 by arfink

[OnlySunshine]

Mater, a dead language is one that is not spoken everyday on a regular basis.
;)


& arfink, call me a total dead-language hipster cause l do love Latin :P

 

 

Well, having taken several years of Latin in high school, and a couple more in seminary, I can tell you that being so enthusiastic about Latin does indeed make you a dead language hipster. I myself am a recovering dead language hipster. Learn from my suffering: don't do it! :P

 

:hehe:

 

But it is used everyday.  Maybe not everyday in a sense that the same person is using it but at least one person uses it per day around the world.  Don't ever say that Latin is a dead language to my Latin professor.  She'll give you a lecture of why it is not dead.  She's about the same age as me, too, and not a stuffy, old professor at all.

[Luigi]

Transcribe this and give it to your professoressa - or write it at the bottom of a test for extra credit :

 

Latin is a dead language,

Dead as it can be.

It killed off all the Romans

And now it's killing me."

[OnlySunshine]

Transcribe this and give it to your professoressa - or write it at the bottom of a test for extra credit :

 

Latin is a dead language,

Dead as it can be.

It killed off all the Romans

And now it's killing me."

 

Nope, I'm a Latin lover.  It is so much neater to learn than Spanish (which bored me to tears).  Latin is my fave.

[OnlySunshine]

Transcribe this and give it to your professoressa - or write it at the bottom of a test for extra credit :

 

Latin is a dead language,

Dead as it can be.

It killed off all the Romans

And now it's killing me."

 

BTW, it's not professoressa (that's Italian, not Latin).  It's magistra.  ;)

Edited January 4, 2014 by MaterMisericordiae

[arfink]

Well, the way I have always heard it said is that Latin is not dead because it is not spoken, for that would simply make it a forgotten language. It is dead because it is no longer a living language, in that it is kept as static and unchanging as possible, unlike a normal living language which is supposed to be adaptable.

 

Pedants are the ones commonly cited with the killing of languages, and the medieval Scholastics did an exceptional job of killing Latin dead as a doornail in that regard. ;)

Edited January 4, 2014 by arfink

[Cherie]

I was just wondering if those who had been or are in religious life could help me with this. Although I studied Latin for two years in high school, I wonder how one can pray the Divine Office without knowing what one is saying/chanting. This is posing quite a dilemma for me. Thanks for any help you can give me.

We didn't pray the Divine Office in Latin, but we had many prayers and hymns in Latin and sometimes had the NO in Latin. Our superior insisted that we have an English translation right along with our Latin prayers so we could understand what we were praying. It was extraordinarily helpful, and though I did have two years of Latin in high school, I was surprised at just how much Latin I was able to truly learn simply by having the translation next to my prayers and hymns.

It really depends. Some people find that praying in Latin is even more spiritually nourishing than praying in English, while others find praying in a language outside of their vernacular is a real hindrance to attentive prayer. It really does go both ways, and it depends a lot on the person, their personality, sensibilities, etc. You'll just have to see if this is a real problem for you, and pray about it.

[maximillion]

I am old enough to have learned the common prayers in Latin at school - we had to re-learn them in English when the vernacular was introduced. Hence when I entered a community that had a full Latin sung LOTH it wasn't hard at all.

 

As others have said, you get used to it, and I LOVE those Latin Gregorian chants. There is NOTHING that can replace that for me.

Then, with renewal, we swapped over to French ( I was in a French community) I actually found this harder....less beautiful, and yes, visitors from elsewhere suffered as they hadn't when everything was in Latin, including the Mass.

 

So I have experience of both, and give me the Latin any day.......even without translation.

 

(We had regular Latin class in the noviciate and this was nearly always based on the LOTH and helping us to understand it).

[Totally Franciscan]

Thank you everyone for your input.  Your posts have helped me a lot and gave me a few chuckles along the way.  I am now not so distressed about Latin LOTH as I was.  In discerning with communities, the Latin will not be a deciding factor.  Presumably my two-year study of Latin will be a huge help as well.  Thanks again Pham!

[ChristinaTherese]

Mater, a dead language is one that is not spoken everyday on a regular basis.
;)


& arfink, call me a total dead-language hipster cause l do love Latin :p

By way of preamble, Im studying Linguistics in college, so I do know what I'm talking about.

A dead language is one that has no native speakers. Living languages change as each new generation learns the language slightly differently, but dead languages stay stagnant. They might be used every day, like Latin is, but they aren't learned and spoken from birth except possibly on very rare occasions. (I've heard of people whe got married whose common language was Klingon or something and then raised children speaking Klingon. That does not make Klingon a living language unless there's a sizable community that does that. It just makes them very weird.)

The changes that occur in living languages due to subsequent generations are particularly clear if you compare something like the original Beowulf, stuff by Cynewulf, etc. to their modern translations. They're both English, and recognizably similar if you know what to look for, but the differences due to the generations are so great that (and I say this from experience) it can be very difficult to translate them.

Thus, it is no insult to Latin to call it a dead language, it is merely as much of a statement of fact as calling Greek or the many languages that linguists have tried to record before all their native speakers die out dead languages.

[AnneLine]

Really good points, all, and I am NOT against Latin for liturgy at all -- I know for many it is a wonderful thing.  It is just really hard for me.

 

To be fair, I have some serious learning disability issues, and I think that is part of the reason I have such a hard time with it. 

 

My brain kind of shuts off when there is too much input, kind of an internal 'lalala I can't hear you!' response -- which is not an ideal way to go to prayer!

 

But it does sound very beautiful... just for me, not the stuff of prayer.