America

[MC Just]

Hey, The job of the Catholic Church is to evangelize and convert, nations, peoples and all societies. Why is it that there are so many so called "Catholic" americans who claim it's unconstitutional or wrong for us to impose our beliefs upon this nation? We plan on converting it and making it a Catholic nation. I think it's messed up, that these "More American than Catholic" people keep going against the Church. What are your thoughts Pham?

[Quietfire]

Well, to answer the second part. The Catholic Church doesnt push her truths on anyone.
As far as Americans, who claim she does, simply mean that they have a mixed up belief.
I am American, and proud of it. I am also Catholic and proud of it. One does not negate the other.
Being American gives me the freedom to follow my personal choices.
Being Catholic gives me free choice.
To me its a win win situation.

Far too many Americans, I feel, think that because they are American, that the Church cannot offer all that they need, and as a result, they fly off and join groups and 'faiths' that they truly do not understand. They fall into a sort of trap, in not knowing what to believe in.
Look around the internet, and you get the idea of what I am talking about. They ALL claim to have the answers, and far too many times, people simply go with it because they are too lazy or dont bother to really check it out. Or worse yet, claim to be gnostic or athiest because they dont want to believe in anything but themselves.
Its selfishness really.
I only speak from personal experience, mind you, and am not accusing anyone here. But rather I see far too much of people rambling off their 'views' and 'truths' and finding a sucker born every second to believe them.

Also, from my own stubborness, it has taken me many years to realize that the Church is truth. When I stated this to some of my family, I received comments like "You're kidding right? Pleeeeeeeeeease!"
None of the arguments have been as lucid as those expressed here on Phatmass, but I was rather shocked by some of the misconceptions that certain members of my family held. They were never expressed before because Catholicism was never a topic of discussion before.



Peace.

Edited June 6, 2004 by Quietfire

[voiciblanche]

Perhaps it is unconstitutional. However, who do we obey first? God or the constitution? I don't know about you, but I'm going with God. I don't want to be more American than Catholic, and people that are can't convert if they aren't open to converting themselves. Your conversion inspires my own, my conversion inspires yours. We all have to convert before we convert others.
Once this guy was talking about this kind of stuff, and he said that we can't "love the sinner, let them sin," rather than loving the sinner and hating the sin. The attitude of letting the sinner sin would be the "more American than Catholic" attitude as well. If we're afraid that we're going to anger other Americans by evangelizing (which means "preaching the Gospel and causing conversion"), then we're not very strong in our Faith, now, are we? Now, we've seen how street preachers, etc, can anger people. Well, we weren't told to preach aloud and annoy people necessarily - "preach the Gospel, and if you must, use words." It's right there. Besides that, the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church! Christ told us! What do we have to fear?

[MC Just]

Have ya'll seen bowling for columbine? I just watched it and I wanna leave this place!!! America is horrible. I know that's a bit extreme but, things are really twisted here. My Church comes before this country. God gave me freedom. The Church brings freedom where ever it goes, america is not the "Creator" of Freedom. This place is way out of order.

Edited June 6, 2004 by MC Just

[voiciblanche]

I saw Bowling For Columbine. Moore's point was that our country is a culture of fear (in addition to a culture of death.) The US isn't as bad as the media potrays it. Is it still twisted? Yes. Does it need the Light of Christ shined on it? Yes, but not any more than any other place.

At the same time, I want to move to the Vatican.

[Enda]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jun 6 2004, 04:35 PM'] Have ya'll seen bowling for columbine? I just watched it and I wanna leave this place!!! America is horrible. I know that's a bit extreme but, things are really twisted here. My Church comes before this country. God gave me freedom. The Church brings freedom where ever it goes, america is not the "Creator" of Freedom. This place is way out of order. [/quote]
Michael Moore is an idiot and a liar. He totally fabircated an interview with Fred Barnes in one of his books. God knows what he fabircates in his movies. You are right, however, that America is not the author of freedom, but I don't think that's how most Americans view the country. It's just that we brought it into the modren world and have been defending ever since. We acknowlegde freedom is God's gift to humanity.

As for Moron's, I mean Moore's movie, I offer a rebuttal: every nation that has outlawed private gunownership has seen an increase in violent crime, such as the UK and Austrailia. Similary the areas that have less strict gunlaws have lower violent crime like the Southeast and the Midwest, as compared to the Northeast and the Westcoast. Private gunownership has nothing to do with fear, but with keeping the violent crime rate low. It's as simple as that.

[Enda]

Btw, I do agree that America is in desperate need of change. Like with our obseession over sex, and legalized abortion. I just think using Michael Moore is a bad example.

[voiciblanche]

Gun ownership - Chris Rock actually made a good point. What if bullets cost $5,000?

[Enda]

huh?

[MC Just]

lol. Well I not saying moores a saint, he just brought up alot of interesting points. Like the part about Canada? The people keep their doors unlocked all the time! Try doing that here. I'm just tired of the immorality here. It makes my stomache sick.

Edited June 6, 2004 by MC Just

[voiciblanche]

It was in Bowling For Columbine. There was a clip of Chris Rock in a comedy sketch. He was saying, "You know, we don't need gun control. We need bullet control! I mean, I think bullets should cost $5,000. Then all the 'gangsta's' would be like, 'Man, I'd shoot you...if I could afford it!' And if the polic picked up a shot guy, they'd be like...'Man, he musta done somethin' - he's got $35,000 worth of bullets in him!'" So then he finishes his sketch and Moore shows something else. But I think it's a good point. What if bullets cost more than you could afford? Maybe people wouldn't shoot each other.

[Ash Wednesday]

I find some of Michael Moore's work to be really informative, and I follow his work. On the other hand, he can be really drastic and immature at times (like when he called pro-life organizations "women-hating")
:shame:

P.S. the part that killed me was when he entered the bank and got a free gun!

[Enda]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 6 2004, 06:15 PM'] It was in Bowling For Columbine. There was a clip of Chris Rock in a comedy sketch. He was saying, "You know, we don't need gun control. We need bullet control! I mean, I think bullets should cost $5,000. Then all the 'gangsta's' would be like, 'Man, I'd shoot you...if I could afford it!' And if the polic picked up a shot guy, they'd be like...'Man, he musta done somethin' - he's got $35,000 worth of bullets in him!'" So then he finishes his sketch and Moore shows something else. But I think it's a good point. What if bullets cost more than you could afford? Maybe people wouldn't shoot each other. [/quote]
People steal guns, I'm sure they'd steal bullets. The only thing it would do would be to take guns out of the hands of self-defending Americans.

New York, California, and the Discrit of Cloumbia have the toughest gun laws in the nation, yet the highest violent crime rates. All these stupid gun-laws make no difference. [i]So me one instance when they have anyone?[/i]

[Cure of Ars]

It never works to impose a belief system on people. In the past, America had a healthy check and balance system between Church and State but at the same time there was separation. The problem now is that the Church has lost power in America through secularization and politics has become the new religion. So what we now have is the government taking on the role of Church through the new religion of secularism.

How to convert our nation and society again?

Repent, follow Christ and become saint by Christ’s grace to give light to the nations.

[maxk]

[quote]Hey, The job of the Catholic Church is to evangelize and convert, nations, peoples and all societies. Why is it that there are so many so called "Catholic" americans who claim it's unconstitutional or wrong for us to impose our beliefs upon this nation? We plan on converting it and making it a Catholic nation. I think it's messed up, that these "More American than Catholic" people keep going against the Church. What are your thoughts Pham?[/quote]

Yeah this issue is tickin' me off too MC... and there are so many Catholics that I know personally who don't do anything about it. Worse yet, many of them add to the immorality. :angry:

[Ash Wednesday]

Labeling and drawing conclusions about someone on grounds of a single-sentance statement on an online message board could be construed as gullible, too. Apology (granted if it was sincere, which I'm not so sure) accepted.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Cure of Ars' date='Jun 6 2004, 05:32 PM'] It never works to impose a belief system on people. In the past, America had a healthy check and balance system between Church and State but at the same time there was separation. The problem now is that the Church has lost power in America through secularization and politics has become the new religion. So what we now have is the government taking on the role of Church through the new religion of secularism.

How to convert our nation and society again?

Repent, follow Christ and become saint by Christ’s grace to give light to the nations. [/quote]
I hear you there. Thanks

[Ash Wednesday]

I'll add what I think part of the problem is -- what people should view as plain and simple moral matters (equal to murder and rape) and issues that are important in protecting family -- the building block of society regardless of race and religion -- is that they take these important issues and they play them down to being just "religious" issues.

Like abortion. People no longer view this as being a simple matter of ethics and science, telling us that life begins at conception. They box it up as being "just a religious issue" and distort it into being a matter of "people's rights" and "separation of church and state" and whine that outlawing abortion makes us an "unconstitutional theocracy."

People for some reason don't seem to want to separate the "church-state issue" from basic issues that concern ethics, reason and morality, and they say "you can't legislate morality and tell people what to do," which is complete bogus. Isn't making murder, rape, and theft illegal a matter of "morals" when you get down to it?

[voiciblanche]

Exactly, Ash Wednesday. Sepearation of Church and state is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of. You can't do it. Every law comes off of someone's idea of what's wrong and what's right. If some satanic religion went to the government and said that their religion said that it was okay to kill people, and therefore the govt. was imposing their religion on the satanics, would the govt. repeal the law? NO! Why? Because it's a moral issue! Where do we get morals? From our conscience. Who gave us our conscience? God. Where do we learn about, enteract with, etc. with God? Pretty much our religion. In conclusion, seperation of Church and state = STUPID and IMPOSSIBLE.

[Ash Wednesday]

Well, I don't have a problem with separation of church and state, as how I would define it, in the sense that it fosters freedom OF religion -- I could be mistaken, but I believe the social teaching of the Church supports this -- but where I believe people are getting the wrong idea is that they are equating it with freedom FROM religion. Like the ACLU, wanting to have a cross removed from a seal down in southern California -- which is ridiculous because it's part of the heritage and history there. But they complain that it's "imposing."

And as I said, I dislike how people wrongly use the church-state issue to allow the legality of things that are just plain morally wrong.