Being Called To Sspx Vocation?

[oremus1]

can the Lord call someone to a vocation in the SSPX? (not the SSPX - SO or SSPX 'Resistance')

 

they have some great, traditional orders. given the dearth of traditional orders (extraordinary form) with active apostolates for women, or english speaking generally, and the poor quality of third orders.  

 

i think it is inevitable their status will be regularised eventually.

 

in the same way Marcel Lefebvre died while excommunicated but undoubtably did great things for the church so surely was called to do what he did, perhaps SSPX are called to do what they do?

 

 

[beatitude]

The SSPX are not reconciled to the Church. You are effectively asking, "Can God call someone away from full communion with the Church in order to serve him?" I don't see how this can be so. Yes, God can and does bring good out of bad situations, but SSPX sacraments are illicit, and how could it possibly be good for anyone's soul to deliberately turn away from a licit Mass in order to attend (or even celebrate) an illicit one?

 

I'm unsure what you're saying about Marcel Lefebvre. Surely you can't be suggesting that he was called by God to excommunicate himself and die outside the Church?! That is what his actions achieved for him, so they hardly constitute a 'great thing'. Again, God is able to bring good out of bad, but this doesn't mean we should actively chase after the wrong things.

 

I hope and pray that the SSPX are reconciled to us and I'm sure that the people with them will have much to give to the Church when that happens, but it hasn't happened yet. Obedience and faithfulness to the Church are important, especially in the religious life, and while these things are missing from the SSPX we should not be promoting vocations to them, no matter how beautiful and reverent their liturgy.

Edited April 16, 2014 by beatitude

[AugustineA]

or (building on Beatitude's statement) however edifying their homilies. 

 

As far as I know, their sacraments are valid but illicit. They have the capability but not the authorization of the Church. I am, in the meantime, holding off on the question simply because I really have no inkling nor gumption to come to such a conclusion on the Holy Spirit. Further, I think the SSPX are instrumental in some larger picture, so best just keep silent... 

 

I'll make a prayer for your vocation.

[Lilllabettt]

their Confessions are not valid. They lack jurisdiction which is necessary for valid form, except in danger of death.

 

How sad to enter religious life and not have access to a valid Confession. Really awful.

[Gabriela]

I hope no one perceives this as a hijacking, because I see the two questions as potentially related (e.g., concerning Church boundaries and whatnot): Might God call a Roman Catholic to a vocation in an Eastern Orthodox religious order?

[Luigi]

can the Lord call someone to a vocation in the SSPX? (not the SSPX - SO or SSPX 'Resistance')

 

they have some great, traditional orders. given the dearth of traditional orders (extraordinary form) with active apostolates for women, or english speaking generally, and the poor quality of third orders.  

 

i think it is inevitable their status will be regularised eventually.

 

in the same way Marcel Lefebvre died while excommunicated but undoubtably did great things for the church so surely was called to do what he did, perhaps SSPX are called to do what they do?

 

I've seen something similar a large number of times - Catholic priests who want to get married going over to the Episcopal Church.

 

 

 

Undoubtedly, the Anglican communion does great things as a church, so surely they were called to split from Rome, right? I think it is inevitable their status will be regularised eventually.

 

Keep saying it until you believe it.

[Benedictus]

SSPX might, but it also might not. I don't think they are desperately seeking it at the moment. Pope Emeritus Benedict made some effort but he didn't get very far, so I don't this effort will be made again in the short term. SSPX don't seem interested in being incorporated whilst some norms, which they see as abuses or ruptures, are ongoing. The canonization of Blessed John Paul ll and John XXll is also a hot potato that is hindering relations.

Luigi - I think you'll find King Henry Vlll wasn't exactly appealing to the Holy Spirit during his break with Rome.  Many Anglicans, including both the liberal and evangelical wings, would resist any institutional  integration or closer ties with the Catholic church.  I'm more hopeful that the Catholic church will attract individual Anglicans, who will then seek to be received into it.  The worship in a 'high church' service within the Church of England, as an example, could potentially be more outwardly traditional than the average Catholic parish.  Thankfully the increase in Catholic traditional masses, and the creation of the Ordinariate, will help to make a possible transition appealing.  I'm not sure what great things the Anglican communion supposedly does, so I'll leave that be.

The Church of England, like many Anglican national churches, is struggling to maintain buildings and support clergy (and their dependants) with salaries and pensions. There's no point having clergy, especially not those who join a church simply to marry, when everything is declining around them. Congregation numbers are falling and the demographics show that more than half of those sitting in the Church of England pews will be dead in about 20 or so years!  I imagine the Episcopal church in the US doesn't fair much better; last I read it it had declined 24% in the last decade. Other liberal and mainline groups, with similar outlooks, declined likewise or worse. The Anglicans are a body some think Catholics should emulate, as if we don't have enough problems already. :doh:

Edited April 17, 2014 by Benedictus

[marigold]

Luigi - I think you'll find King Henry Vlll wasn't exactly appealing to the Holy Spirit during his break with Rome.  Many Anglicans, including both the liberal and evangelical wings, would resist any institutional  integration or closer ties with the Catholic church.  I'm more hopeful that the Catholic church will attract individual Anglicans, who will then seek to be received into it.  The worship in a 'high church' service within the Church of England, as an example, could potentially be more outwardly traditional than the average Catholic parish.  Thankfully the increase in Catholic traditional masses, and the creation of the Ordinariate, will help to make a possible transition appealing.  I'm not sure what great things the Anglican communion supposedly does, so I'll leave that be.
 

 

I think he was being sarcastic...

[marigold]

I hope no one perceives this as a hijacking, because I see the two questions as potentially related (e.g., concerning Church boundaries and whatnot): Might God call a Roman Catholic to a vocation in an Eastern Orthodox religious order?

 

From the Roman Catholic point of view, I don't think so. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Orthodox Church is in schism but not in heresy - in other words, its teachings and sacraments are all valid, but it's separated from the RCC for the time being. The Orthodox Church teaches that the Roman Catholic Church is in heresy - i.e., that it has changed and added to the Faith received by the apostles.

 

From our point of view, sure he might, but the person in question would have to convert and reject Roman Catholicism in order to do so! :)

[Benedictus]

I think he was being sarcastic...

 

ah yes, you're probably right

[Benedictus]

From the Roman Catholic point of view, I don't think so. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Orthodox Church is in schism but not in heresy - in other words, its teachings and sacraments are all valid, but it's separated from the Catholic Church for the time being. The Orthodox Church teaches that the Roman Catholic Church is in heresy - i.e., that it has changed and added to the Faith received by the apostles.

 

From our point of view, sure he might, but the person in question would have to convert and reject Roman Catholicism in order to do so! :)

 

There are a few things that the Catholic church developed after the split that isn't held by Orthodoxy. I didn't realize this until a few years ago.

There was the recent case of Fr Gabriel Bunge. He was a Catholic priest, monk and theologian for about 40 years; he later become a hermit. He then joined the Orthodox church about 4 years ago.

[Mary Catherine]

Please do not consider SSPX. There are many good traditional orders within the church, as long as you try to seek them.

 

Why bother seeking a vocation that is outside the church? Outside the church, the apostolate work is of no merit, because many SSPX followers just cut themself off from the church. This is really not nice.

 

Don't forget, to be with Rome is a pre-taste of heaven, because your salvation can only be secured with our eternal mother - Rome.

 

 

 

[AugustineA]

I'm digging your guys staunch love of the Roman See. A girl I talk to who first brought me to an FSSP church pretty much said the same thing as Mary Catherine. Stick with Rome in hard times. :)

 

(I still think SSPX has a larger role to play lol)

[Eliakim]

I hope no one perceives this as a hijacking, because I see the two questions as potentially related (e.g., concerning Church boundaries and whatnot): Might God call a Roman Catholic to a vocation in an Eastern Orthodox religious order?

 

I don't think He would do that, but I could be wrong.  However Eastern Rite, yes.  This is different than asking whether or not someone not yet in communion with Rome is called to become a Catholic priest.  In this latter case I would say yes. 

 

E

[MithLuin]

Understanding what God calls us to is often confusing.  We see again and again in the lives of the saints that they were told (pretty clearly) by God, 'do this,' and so they set out to do it.  But...what God was asking wasn't actually clear to them until much later.  As an example, God told a young St. Francis of Assisi, "Rebuild my church, which as you can see is falling into ruin."  And so Francis quickly rebuilt the decrepit little chapel he was praying in when he received that instruction.  A little too literal, there.....  As the founder of the mendicant order of Franciscans, he did much to help rebuild the Church.  

 

And so, when God calls us to something that is clearly good, following through with it quickly and cheerfully makes sense.  Go for it!  If nuance appears later, well then, so be it.  

 

When we think God is calling us to something that is *not* so clearly a good thing, it seems to me that it would be prudent to spend a *lot* of time in prayer and to seek solid spiritual advice before embarking on our perceived calling.  People make mistakes, and if there's cause for concern (especially when we're talking about the care of your soul), you *really* don't want to rush in foolhardily.  

 

So, if you are facing a difficult choice - finding some of the traditional orders outside the Church attractive - pray about it!  Long and hard.  God does not put desires on our hearts needlessly, so really, tell God about what you find so wonderful and beautiful in these orders, and see if He leads you to some place where you can find that desire and be at peace....without leaving the Church.  

 

Leaving the Church is generally a bad idea.  I certainly would not make that decision lightly.  

 

Converting between Orthodox and Catholic happens, as does converting between Catholic and Protestant.  But, as a Catholic, I could not in good faith *encourage* a fellow Catholic to leave the Church and convert to be a Protestant.  In a similar way, I could not encourage someone to join an SSPX religious order.  

 

But...important caveat.  This thread asks what God would do, not what I would do.  And that's why I focused so strongly on the discernment process.  Because God has been known to do things that surprise me and that are not what I would do.  

[Mary Catherine]

I would like to share my experience with SSPX.

 

I had been in contact with them for about 3 years, because it would be hard for me to get an visa to those congregations outside my country, and only SSPX in Asia could help me.

 

But the experience with them has generally been quite unpleasant. In the first place, they try to brainwash me with their strange teachings and ideas, which are far away from the church's teachings. In the meantime, I was asked to abandon all my old Catholics friends, inlcuding those of Novus Ordo and diocesan TLM.

 

And because SSPX only offers a mass here once a month, so they try to prevent me from going weekly diocesan TLMs. The priest asked me why I don't stay at home and pray rosary on Sundys when there is no SSPX mass.

 

It's all because SSPX claims they have the truth, and only their mass is good enough. And all these filled my hearts with scruples, doubts and fears, because I had to miss Sunday obligations, and commit mortal sins, and I was losing all my good Catholic friends. I just couldn't understand what those people in the church has done wrong, so that they should be treated like that?

 

And if you don't believe those strange teachings and harsh requirements, you will never win trust from SSPX priests. I think in the beliefs, people have to "pay" for the truth first, then could they be trusted. This is not a Catholic attitude at all, but a business-like mind.

 

So, over a month before my story with SSPX is ending. Now I am too happy to be back to the church, and choose among all the traditional congregations with the church as far as I could. What a happy and sweet home Rome is! I am no longer being suspected or being tested without end. There is deep peace in my heart, and I found more and more I love the church so much! For the church is the body of Christ, and I don't want to leave Jesus!

[Catherine Therese]

It is fallacious to conclude that SSPX are acting in obedience to the Lord's will because good has come of their work. {So fallacious that the error has a name - "affirming the consequent". c.f. http://www.philosophy-index.com/logic/fallacies/affirming-consequent.php}

But you're just judging it by it's fruits, you say?

It is true that chapter 4 of John's first epistle encourages us to use the fruits of something to ascertain whether it is of good or evil origin, but no Scriptural text can be taken in isolation of the fuller message of the book from which it is taken, much less from the broader message of Scripture taken as a cogent whole.

For starters, John's epistle holds up as the ultimate litmus test of adoption into God's family, and yardstick of one's very love of God, the question of whether or not one obeys His commandments.

Then recall that Our Lord gave the Apostles the power to loose and bind. He established a structure within which service of Him was to work.

Disobedience of legitimate authority is an objectively evil act. It makes no sense to consider that the Lord would call anyone to perform evil.

It is not enough to say that its only a little evil and the fruits are so good. Apart from the startling resemblance that argument bears to a certain incident in a garden a long time ago, its a pretty staggering example of consequentialism. Yet we, as Christians, do NOT believe that the end justifies the means.

Logically, ethically, Scripturally, such a defence of SSPX is deficient.

Furthermore - what Mary Catherine has revealed about SSPX claiming that they alone held the truth, and that only their Mass is good enough... I mean, they're setting themselves up as an almost neo-perfecti present-day gnosticism. If the things I laid out above don't set your sensus fidei alarm bells ringing, this gnostic undertone alone should be reason enough to close off all consideration of orders that do not operate in obedience to the Church instituted by Jesus Christ, and not its schismatic offshoots.

Be on your guard against allowing emotion and sentiment to be mistaken for "God's call".

If you seek to live religious life in accordance with God's will, religious obedience is a crucial ingredient. If the very order to which you belong is founded upon disobedience, how on earth can a vow of obedience have any meaning?

[TIWW]

If one is a Roman Catholic, it is difficult to conceive of why anyone would be called to the SSPX,( who do not find Vatican II valid)  or Anglicans, who do not find the Pope valid because they, along with Henry the VIII, want to divorce, and have the Monarch in England head their church.  Then there are the hundreds of Protestant sects, who have as many beliefs as there are denominations ( create as you go along)

The Catholic church has a lot of problems, primary being the clerical abuse of children, sexual abuses among clergy and other human rights violations, and the hiding of these abuses for years behind bishops and Hierarchy to protect the priests, rather than the children.