Are You Of Jesuit Spirituality?, Faithful Congregations Of This Spirit

May 2, 2014

In Spain there are some that became greats, after all, the Jesuits were born here, but several, like many Jesuit priests, lost their charisma by "modernity",

Examples as the Company of Mary, originating in France 400 years ago, they were so united to the Jesuits, who called themselves in this way, why Jesuits are the Company of Jesus.

so united to the Jesuits, that imitated his example, they are now "modernized".

http://www.lestonnac-odn.org/en

I can add more examples, but I want to talk about congregations that if have remained faithful.

Company of the Saviour, foundation of 1952, his Founder Mother, not allowed to deviate, supported by faithful Jesuits, this is the result today.

They have presence in USA, http://ciasalvador.org/casas/

http://ciasalvador.org/

I'll post more. if anyone knows others, i appreciate that put :like:

May 2, 2014

These sort of insinuations about "modernism" - presumably because the sisters aren't habited - are really, really tiresome. Jesuits were never intended to be monks in the first place!

May 2, 2014

These sort of insinuations about "modernism" - presumably because the sisters aren't habited - are really, really tiresome. Jesuits were never intended to be monks in the first place!

When you see several sisters prefer to be social workers, that religious sisters, that community life is gone, sisters in the missions, say participating in pagan festivals such as La Pachamama and see that several of them defend feminist ideology, something is wrong.

I have been very mild, saying "they have been modernized".

May 2, 2014

If they are a community with constitutions that have been accepted by the Church, they are religious. What is wrong wih an apostolate in social work? Can I not be a teacher and a religious at the same time? There is nothing unfaithful about chapters of affairs changing constitutions, the church approving those changes, and the sisters living in accordance with these approved norms. That's actually the definition of being faithful.

If the church has approved their constitutions, and you don't approve of their constitutions, I would say you are on the wrong side of the fence.

May 2, 2014

If they are a community with constitutions that have been accepted by the Church, they are religious. What is wrong wih an apostolate in social work? Can I not be a teacher and a religious at the same time? There is nothing unfaithful about chapters of affairs changing constitutions, the church approving those changes, and the sisters living in accordance with these approved norms. That's actually the definition of being faithful.

If the church has approved their constitutions, and you don't approve of their constitutions, I would say you are on the wrong side of the fence.

You can not give priority to social work on religious life, I have seen friars/sisters who have no community life, the daily common prayer is voluntary, living in flats and each sister in your own way, religious life so ceases to making sense.

Also several, often speak against the doctrine of the Church. That should be a friar/sister?

May 2, 2014

I agree with Sister Marie. I would prefer to trust the Church than people who post critically on an internet forum about "modernism." If the constitution is approved, and they are in good standing, then the community is ok. On what basis do you judge the spirituality, orthodoxy and souls of people you do not know? This is quite inappropriate. You may not prefer their way of living out their call, which is fine. Don't join the community. But please don't sweepingly criticize those who have answered the call to serve God through an approved community and its charism.

This seems to give new meaning to the saying: "More Catholic than the Pope...."

May 2, 2014

A reminder -- no debating in Vocation Station ... if there is a desire to debate modern vs. traditional communities please take it to debate table. No need to start arguing about a faithfulness of a community; it really isn't fair to the community itself especially from the outside.

May 3, 2014

Isn't part of the Jesuit charism to be at home wherever you are...if you are in rich circumstances, grow where you are planted, in poor, grow where you are planted, etc. In other words, detachment in whatever "environment" the Society sends you into. That's probably why Jesuits are more comfortable adapting to modern ways of dressing and relating.

May 3, 2014

Ignatian Spirituality strives to find God in All Things. God is to be found in the world and in our daily lives, not divorced from it. The truth of their faith is proved by their actions, not by whether or not they wear a habit.

May 3, 2014

You can not give priority to social work on religious life, I have seen friars/sisters who have no community life, the daily common prayer is voluntary, living in flats and each sister in your own way, religious life so ceases to making sense.

Also several, often speak against the doctrine of the Church. That should be a friar/sister?

Can the work a religious does be so permeated by their religious calling that the two are inseparable? I would answer yes. We live in a world that is different than it was fifty years ago and needs us in ways it didn't need us fifty years ago. The sisters with whom I live spent far less time in school than I do because, generally speaking, the children they taught had stable homes and religious upbringing. Now, most of the children I teach live in total chaos and are exposed to drugs, alcohol, abuse, and general neglect. They need me more and it is in fidelity that I serve them. I have to spend more time in my apostolate than the sisters who went before me did. Answering the needs of God's people is never a bad action.

Have you ever lived in religious life? How do you know whether or not it "makes sense" if you are neither the congregation in the vatican who approves constitutions nor a religious? It seems you are unqualified to make the statements you make.

Again, the issues of community, prayer, and housing are determined by the constitutions of a community which are modified by the chapter and approved by the Church... as long as the Church approves them, they make sense. It doesn't really matter if it is your preference, my preference, or anyone else's preference.

I'm sorry if this seems like I'm making it into a debate. I only mean to clarify and answer what was written to me.

Edited to add - You are aware our current Holy Father is a Jesuit, right?

Edited May 3, 2014 by Sister Marie

May 3, 2014

I believe the Jesuits were always amenable to adaptation -- didn't the 17th century Jesuits in China dress deliberately as mandarins since that was something the Chinese could understand and respect?

May 3, 2014

I believe the Jesuits were always amenable to adaptation -- didn't the 17th century Jesuits in China dress deliberately as mandarins since that was something the Chinese could understand and respect?

Woahh.. I have been meaning to post something about this all day for some weird reason. Yeah, they were heavily criticized by the Dominicans and Franciscans for participating in Confucian ceremonies. I figured if anyone is going to really embrace these sorts of changes it would be the Jesuits.

That being said, while I agree that so long as they have the permission of the Church they are well.. permissible, the more traditional orders do tend to be thriving, or at least drawing more young people.

If I ever enter religious life I want a robust rule, a proper habit, and a matching beard. :D God bless all the little old ladies in social work and medicine that live in their own flats. They're saving alot of lives.

May 3, 2014

That being said, while I agree that so long as they have the permission of the Church they are well.. permissible, the more traditional orders do tend to be thriving, or at least drawing more young people.

If I ever enter religious life I want a robust rule, a proper habit, and a matching beard. :D God bless all the little old ladies in social work and medicine that live in their own flats. They're saving alot of lives.

It's interesting when we are talking about what we want in religious life because of what a mystery God's call really is. Many of us, in the spirit of wanting to give God all, imagine what we think that "all" must look like. It certainly seems like giving "all" is most evident in the form of religious life that is more externally restrictive, or rigorous, or different from the social norm. Visually, from the outside, it certainly seems like the very formal prayer life, common life, and religious garb point to a more radical way of giving "all." However, giving all consists only in following God's will where God calls you. Often the "all" God asks us to give includes our expectations and wants in religious life. In this sense, each rule or constitution is robust in its own way and each member gives his or her all in a self-sacrificing manner.

For one giving all might look like the very restrictive or externally rigorous religious life - especially someone who is more of a free-spirit. This would certainly be more difficult for that person. Likewise, giving "all" for the person who values security, stability, and clear expectations might be done more fully in a community that calls the person to discern with others, make decisions together, and live in circumstances that can change according to ministry and community needs.

I would have thought early in my discernment of religious life along the lines of what you wrote above but the way to grow in holiness is to allow God to stretch us by giving God our "all." I have been so blessed that God somehow kept me out of the way of his plan so that I ended up where I did. I can't imagine another place where I could give my "all" to God. Objectively, you wouldn't call my community's constitutions especially rigorous, but the daily living of it in my person certainly is. It has challenged me, changed me, encouraged me, and provided me with the framework to give God my "all."

I was glad to read your sense of gratitude for the good work of many sisters. If I might dare to offer you a personal challenge... not to be answered here but for yourself... would you call the sisters in a more traditional community "little old ladies?" Maybe you would and meant no offense by it... maybe you meant it affectionately... but maybe it's something else, subconsciously, that makes them "little old ladies" instead of "sisters" in your mind. If it's the latter, it might be something to spend some time thinking and praying about. If you enter religious life, you will meet religious you admire and religious you don't admire... yet they will still be brother or sister to you regardless... you don't want to forget that about them.

May 3, 2014

The Church exists for the salvation of souls. Any religious order that does not have this as their primary purpose/objective has lost sight of their mission, habit or no habit. The Church is not here to build Utopia on earth. In the past some religious orders, priests, bishops, etc. have given in to the lure of humanism wherein temporal needs of humanity became more important than spiritual needs. The professing of Christ and his message was second if it was done at all.

Yes, the world has changed, it will continue to change but the soul of man has not and will not change. Man needs Christ in his soul and that is the mission of the Church...to bring Christ to the world...habit or no habit.

May 3, 2014

When Jesuits are good, they're very good. The best two religious men I know had experiences with good Jesuits that were crucial in their discernment of religious life. I don't know exactly which communities these were but one was in Europe and one was in Asia.

May 4, 2014

It's interesting when we are talking about what we want in religious life because of what a mystery God's call really is. Many of us, in the spirit of wanting to give God all, imagine what we think that "all" must look like. It certainly seems like giving "all" is most evident in the form of religious life that is more externally restrictive, or rigorous, or different from the social norm. Visually, from the outside, it certainly seems like the very formal prayer life, common life, and religious garb point to a more radical way of giving "all." However, giving all consists only in following God's will where God calls you. Often the "all" God asks us to give includes our expectations and wants in religious life. In this sense, each rule or constitution is robust in its own way and each member gives his or her all in a self-sacrificing manner.

For one giving all might look like the very restrictive or externally rigorous religious life - especially someone who is more of a free-spirit. This would certainly be more difficult for that person. Likewise, giving "all" for the person who values security, stability, and clear expectations might be done more fully in a community that calls the person to discern with others, make decisions together, and live in circumstances that can change according to ministry and community needs.

I would have thought early in my discernment of religious life along the lines of what you wrote above but the way to grow in holiness is to allow God to stretch us by giving God our "all." I have been so blessed that God somehow kept me out of the way of his plan so that I ended up where I did. I can't imagine another place where I could give my "all" to God. Objectively, you wouldn't call my community's constitutions especially rigorous, but the daily living of it in my person certainly is. It has challenged me, changed me, encouraged me, and provided me with the framework to give God my "all."

I was glad to read your sense of gratitude for the good work of many sisters. If I might dare to offer you a personal challenge... not to be answered here but for yourself... would you call the sisters in a more traditional community "little old ladies?" Maybe you would and meant no offense by it... maybe you meant it affectionately... but maybe it's something else, subconsciously, that makes them "little old ladies" instead of "sisters" in your mind. If it's the latter, it might be something to spend some time thinking and praying about. If you enter religious life, you will meet religious you admire and religious you don't admire... yet they will still be brother or sister to you regardless... you don't want to forget that about them.

I'm only speaking for myself, and should probably preface what I'm about to say by sharing that I have no inkling as to what my religious call looks like. I agree with what you're saying. For the priest who wants above all things to live in poverty like St. Francis, a cushy posting in Rome with a car and apartment may be his trial. It is his poverty, and so is comparable to the habit.

In my personal experience, visual separation has its own functional merits. We identify priests but what they wear. It's a symbol, and symbols are very important in our faith, the analogical and anagogical. They help us understand how we relate to things, and that includes religious brothers and sisters and laity.

Physical signs also have inherent merit. God likes physicality; He created it. Physical acts show outwardly but also effect change inwardly, and so outward discipline impacts our spiritual discipline as well. Tradition is after all transmitted physically, but is the packaging of greater spiritual treasure. I hope that explains why I see great value personally in the entirety of the traditions of religious life, including the outward trappings and find them very efficacious. :)

When I think of it, I have heard two people before take some sort of offence (despite being young themselves) at the term "sweet old man/lady". Of course, it was intended with affection, and no your hunch is misplaced. The photo posted in here is of well.. sweet looking older ladies. Hence the term. I find it more curious why you thought I wouldn't feel gratitude at their work or forget about them? We all after all are Catholics. We belong to the same Church, and we should all appreciate the various expressions of the body so long as they are permissible. If by my understanding I take to support the traditional orders outwardly, it doesn't mean I don't wish the best and brightest for the rest and support them all in prayer!

May 4, 2014

I would have thought early in my discernment of religious life along the lines of what you wrote above but the way to grow in holiness is to allow God to stretch us by giving God our "all." I have been so blessed that God somehow kept me out of the way of his plan so that I ended up where I did. I can't imagine another place where I could give my "all" to God. Objectively, you wouldn't call my community's constitutions especially rigorous, but the daily living of it in my person certainly is. It has challenged me, changed me, encouraged me, and provided me with the framework to give God my "all."

Honestly, that's good to hear, and I'm glad I read your post a second time sister. Who knows, maybe God will give me a smack in the head and I'll end up a clean shaven Jesuit doing his will somewhere haha. Life is funny that way..

May 4, 2014

I'm only speaking for myself, and should probably preface what I'm about to say by sharing that I have no inkling as to what my religious call looks like. I agree with what you're saying. For the priest who wants above all things to live in poverty like St. Francis, a cushy posting in Rome with a car and apartment may be his trial. It is his poverty, and so is comparable to the habit.

In my personal experience, visual separation has its own functional merits. We identify priests but what they wear. It's a symbol, and symbols are very important in our faith, the analogical and anagogical. They help us understand how we relate to things, and that includes religious brothers and sisters and laity.

Physical signs also have inherent merit. God likes physicality; He created it. Physical acts show outwardly but also effect change inwardly, and so outward discipline impacts our spiritual discipline as well. Tradition is after all transmitted physically, but is the packaging of greater spiritual treasure. I hope that explains why I see great value personally in the entirety of the traditions of religious life, including the outward trappings and find them very efficacious. :)

When I think of it, I have heard two people before take some sort of offence (despite being young themselves) at the term "sweet old man/lady". Of course, it was intended with affection, and no your hunch is misplaced. The photo posted in here is of well.. sweet looking older ladies. Hence the term. I find it more curious why you thought I wouldn't feel gratitude at their work or forget about them? We all after all are Catholics. We belong to the same Church, and we should all appreciate the various expressions of the body so long as they are permissible. If by my understanding I take to support the traditional orders outwardly, it doesn't mean I don't wish the best and brightest for the rest and support them all in prayer!

You are absolutely right that visual and objective representations are good things. I'm just cautioning against making them the substance of a call instead of marks of it. The substance is the person who is faithfully responding to God's call within a particular community and a particular rule of life. The spiritual treasure doesn't change because the packaging is different and that's why it is so good that the Church approves and encourages rules and constitutions that provide a variety of ways to live the life of vowed consecration.

I wasn't really surprised that you felt gratitude for them, I'm sorry if it seemed that I was doubting your authenticity in that. I wasn't doubting you, just happy to see your gratitude! Sometimes people look down on the work religious do if they don't view them as religious so I was just thanking you for expressing that gratitude because its nice to see and hear.

I don't really take offense to the term sweet old lady unless its effect, regardless of intent, is to reduce the person to something other than what they are or to reduce their way of life to something it isn't. I don't think that is what you were doing, I just know that human nature (and I include myself in this! I do it too!) is to take people who don't fit in our worldview and make them by labeling them or putting them in a box. Let me tell you, I live with some sisters who might be called sweet old ladies by someone who doesn't know them but they aren't. They are passionate, tenacious, energetic, wise, and deeply prayerful women religious. They are powerful, in the sense of carrying God's will and work within them, because of their identity as women religious. The Gospel demands that things in our world get shaken up... and generally... sweet old ladies don't do a whole lot of shaking things up. Neither do "pretty young sisters" which is a similar label I encounter that doesn't do a whole lot for recognizing the point and purpose of religious life - to get to Heaven and bring as many people with us as we can. That requires an intense living of the Gospel and it does shake things up.

Honestly, that's good to hear, and I'm glad I read your post a second time sister. Who knows, maybe God will give me a smack in the head and I'll end up a clean shaven Jesuit doing his will somewhere haha. Life is funny that way..

Life is funny! Who knows what God wants until later when we can look back and see how God has worked in our lives. I hope all the best for you and your discernment.

May 4, 2014

Sister Madeleva Wolff, longtime president of St. Mary's College, Notre Dame, IN, and a Sister of the Holy Cross who entered early in the 20th century, said in her autobiography ("My First Seventy Years--well worth reading!) that when she first saw the habit of the CSCs, she thought it was the ugliest thing she'd ever seen! Don't know whether she ever changed her mind or not--but she wore it happily and worthily for over 50 years.

I also really like Sr. Marie's insight that physical things like the habit are the marks of a call, but not the substance of it. And while it certainly is true that God created physical things and called them good (I have a really Incarnational spirituality), we should not forget that clothing (in the form of fig leaves) was not "invented" by God but by Adam and Eve, and only in shame after their disobedience! :hehe2: Seriously, it's fine to admire and value a religious habit. But I wonder why it is one of the most contentious aspects of so many discussions about vocation and religious life, when it really is not the essence of it at all.... :unsure:

Edited May 4, 2014 by Nunsuch

May 4, 2014

I don't really take offense to the term sweet old lady unless its effect, regardless of intent, is to reduce the person to something other than what they are or to reduce their way of life to something it isn't. I don't think that is what you were doing, I just know that human nature (and I include myself in this! I do it too!) is to take people who don't fit in our worldview and make them by labeling them or putting them in a box. Let me tell you, I live with some sisters who might be called sweet old ladies by someone who doesn't know them but they aren't. They are passionate, tenacious, energetic, wise, and deeply prayerful women religious. They are powerful, in the sense of carrying God's will and work within them, because of their identity as women religious. The Gospel demands that things in our world get shaken up... and generally... sweet old ladies don't do a whole lot of shaking things up. Neither do "pretty young sisters" which is a similar label I encounter that doesn't do a whole lot for recognizing the point and purpose of religious life - to get to Heaven and bring as many people with us as we can. That requires an intense living of the Gospel and it does shake things up.

Life is funny! Who knows what God wants until later when we can look back and see how God has worked in our lives. I hope all the best for you and your discernment.

Yeah, I admit, I would be less likely to use that term, even though I meant well with it, to a sister in a habit. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, but it would certainly be less likely. But it's exactly like you said. We place things in boxes. When I realized you were religious I immediately re-read your post and felt stupid for my response, because I put religious brothers and sisters in a box that says "caution, respect, pay attention, holiness". I'm not saying it's right, especially if we ought to treat everyone equal. These sorts of things are difficult to overcome.

I will hereby not use the terms sweet old lady or pretty young sisters in relation to religious. Some of those sisters are really cute though, even if their holiness is like the wrath of God itself. :unsure:

Sister Madeleva Wolff, longtime president of St. Mary's College, Notre Dame, IN, and a Sister of the Holy Cross who entered early in the 20th century, said in her autobiography ("My First Seventy Years--well worth reading!) that when she first saw the habit of the CSCs, she thought it was the ugliest thing she'd ever seen! Don't know whether she ever changed her mind or not--but she wore it happily and worthily for over 50 years.

I also really like Sr. Marie's insight that physical things like the habit are the marks of a call, but not the substance of it. And while it certainly is true that God created physical things and called them good (I have a really Incarnational spirituality), we should not forget that clothing (in the form of fig leaves) was not "invented" by God but by Adam and Eve, and only in shame after their disobedience! :hehe2: Seriously, it's fine to admire and value a religious habit. But I wonder why it is one of the most contentious aspects of so many discussions about vocation and religious life, when it really is not the essence of it at all.... :unsure:

I actually hadn't realized it was a contentious issue. I think there is sometimes a culture that develops around discernment and these sorts of questions, which I know nothing about. I just never thought about it, my default setting was always set to habit. (oo double entendre)

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