Authoritative Statement That Noncatholics Can Be Saved

[Perigrina]

You're unaware? I posted a link to a joint doctrine statement on that exact point. Unless you're limiting your scope somehow on what's acceptable

 

Your quote did not address the question of salvation of non-Catholic Christians.  It was from a joint statement of Lutherans and Catholics on a common understanding of justification.  This doctrine has been one of the main contentious issues between the groups so it was a significant step in ecumenical dialogue.  However nothing in this document is intended to speak to the question of how non-Catholics Christians are saved or how to reconcile the salvation of non-Catholics Christians with "outside the Church there is no salvation".  It is really important to take documents in the way they are intended, rather than to apply them to issues they are not addressing.
 

[mortify ii]

the only authoritative type statements that i see that they can be saved are vatican ii. it could be argued that they didnt intend to define anything, and it's always possible to hope that noncahtolics would somehow repent or 'be shown an angel before death' or something as is traditionally the only way of getting saved. so when they say noncatholics 'may' be saved, it is a political statement loaded with far out possibilities while making it look like they actually have a shot. it's a political statement.

 

there are lots of statements by popes that are not authoritative. rememebr it has to intentionally, be the pope, binding, the church, faith and morals

 

God is the one who saves, if He decides to save a particular non-Catholic despite their religion, then it is perfectly within His power and justice to do so. We can not judge internal matters, nor can we positively assert subjectively. We stick with what is objectively known, and we know that objectively speaking there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Souls need to be Catholic the way your body needs food and water. Catholicism is not one of many ways to heaven, it is the only way to heaven. Schismatics and heretics who mimic our rites, use our holy books, and have similar prayers, do not possess any salvific value in their groups and communities. 

[Benedictus]

Your quote did not address the question of salvation of non-Catholic Christians.  It was from a joint statement of Lutherans and Catholics on a common understanding of justification.  This doctrine has been one of the main contentious issues between the groups so it was a significant step in ecumenical dialogue.  However nothing in this document is intended to speak to the question of how non-Catholics Christians are saved or how to reconcile the salvation of non-Catholics Christians with "outside the Church there is no salvation".  It is really important to take documents in the way they are intended, rather than to apply them to issues they are not addressing.
 

 

The shared agreement on justification deals with the very question of how a person is saved, regardless of whether they are a Catholic or not. What else is the point of agreement on justification between the two churches if not that? What do you believe justification is about? 

At the Kenneth Copeland Evangelical conference, where the message from the Pope was aired, they also read out the theological point on justification (how one is saved) and this was presented by Bishop Anthony Palmer, a non Catholic and friend of Pope Francis.
It can't get much clearer: the Vatican document (extending to all, not just Catholics) agreed on says salvation is by 'grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit'. Somehow you still think the church hasn't made it's position clear.

[Eliakim]

Hi Dairygirl,

This is an interesting and important subject. 

 

1) Which Vatican II document are you referring to that most clearly infers non-Catholics can get to heaven? 

 

2) I seem to remember a certain document that said something to the effect that as long as the non-Catholic, (or even non-Christian) follows his heart and God's natural laws in his own religion, he can find salvation...or perhaps that is just in the new catechism? 

 

I sympathize with your need for consistency. 

 

Best/

E

 

 

[Perigrina]

The shared agreement on justification deals with the very question of how a person is saved, regardless of whether they are a Catholic or not. What else is the point of agreement on justification between the two churches if not that? What do you believe justification is about? 

At the Kenneth Copeland Evangelical conference, where the message from the Pope was aired, they also read out the theological point on justification (how one is saved) and this was presented by Bishop Anthony Palmer, a non Catholic and friend of Pope Francis.
It can't get much clearer: the Vatican document (extending to all, not just Catholics) agreed on says salvation is by 'grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit'. Somehow you still think the church hasn't made it's position clear.

 

What you infer from a document about a completely different topic is not an authoritative teaching.  In order for a teaching to be authoritative it must have the intent to teach.  Teaching about how non-Catholic Christians are saved needs to have the intent to teach on this subject.

 

Justification is the action of declaring or making righteous in the sight of God.  It is involved in salvation but the terms are not interchangeable.

 

[Guest]

lol

[Benedictus]

What you infer from a document about a completely different topic is not an authoritative teaching.  In order for a teaching to be authoritative it must have the intent to teach.  Teaching about how non-Catholic Christians are saved needs to have the intent to teach on this subject.

 

Justification is the action of declaring or making righteous in the sight of God.  It is involved in salvation but the terms are not interchangeable.

 

 

OK - Do you want to bring in the various views on soteriology, redemption or atonement? How do they add to justification in your view to answer how one gets saved? Bear in mind that most protestants hold that Gods grace leads to sincere repentance, faith in Christs death on the cross and then they are saved. That's basically it! Fruits of that salvation manifest through the regeneration of their spirit and a change of life direction (or focus). It pretty much matches up with the document outlined on justification, on how to become righteous. It also matches up fairly well with the Catholic Catechism:  ''1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."⁸¹ "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn''

If they're not saved then how can Catholics be in any sort of communion in Christ?

[Perigrina]

OK - Do you want to bring in the various views on soteriology, redemption or atonement? How do they add to justification in your view to answer how one gets saved? Bear in mind that most protestants hold that Gods grace leads to sincere repentance, faith in Christs death on the cross and then they are saved. That's basically it! Fruits of that salvation manifest through the regeneration of their spirit and a change of life direction (or focus). It pretty much matches up with the document outlined on justification, on how to become righteous. It also matches up fairly well with the Catholic Catechism:  ''1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."⁸¹ "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn''

If they're not saved then how can Catholics be in any sort of communion in Christ?

 

According to the CCC "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. "

 

That is the salvation we know about. There is also the relatively vague notion of "some, though imperfect, communion" that somehow involves faith and baptism.  But we can't just assume that all non-Catholic Christians are saved.  It is a possibility, not something to count on.

[Norseman82]

For a second I thought it said "Nonalcoholics can be saved".