St. Peter's Tomb In Jerusalem?

[Bruce S]

This is Mt. Nebo, Catholic Shrine erected to honor where they believe Moses was buried. Not the VERY STRANGE 'cross' erected there.

The figure in the pic, is JP II.

If anyone, like me, is deeply into symbols, that cross sends shivers up one's spine.

[img]http://servus.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/fai/nbimage/Papa2.jpg[/img]

If God wanted Moses's grave ANONYMOUS, why is this shrine even there? We have two passages that clearly indicate that Moses's bones should NOT be venerated, nor his burial site known, NOR made into a tourist destination.

My Protestant, bible reading, two cents on this matter. FWIW.

Peace.

Edited June 10, 2004 by Bruce S

[Aloysius]

i like that cross, it reminds me of the bronze serpent

but anyway, the fact that we don't know for certain that this is Moses' grave prooves that we're not obsessing over the BONES but are giving honor to the person. Your scripture does not say not to honor Moses for the great things he did. Our Scripture clearly tells us to call these things to mind remembering the great things the Lord has done for His people.

[theculturewarrior]

I apologize if this has already been posted, but I'm a little hot under the collar right now.

To quote GK Chesterton..."A legend is written by the majority of the people in the village who are sane. A book is written by the one man in the village who is mad."

How does this theory that Peter was buried in Jerusalem account for the fact that the See of Rome was recognized as the See of Peter by the Early Church? Find me one Church Father who disputed this. The tradition of St. Peter's tomb was carefully preserved by the Early Church, on down to our times. A culture that venerates relics pays attention to the details of the the First Pope's burial place. And the WHOLE WORLD knew it! This is just revisionist history at its worst.

Edited June 10, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 9 2004, 12:53 PM'] Christianity should have - NOTHING WHATSOEVER - to do with "bones" of anyone, anywhere.

{Protestant Position}

We are a LIVING religion, fascination with dead things is something best avoided. [/quote]
Again...

Would this include grave yards? Maybe we all should be cremated instead and dumped into the sea.

[theculturewarrior]

Why bother cremating them? They're dead. Feed em to the sharks. (Especially the apostles? )

[the lumberjack]

from dust you were created, and to the dust you shall return.

these bodies profit us nothing in the afterlife...so why even bother burying them?

God will resurrect in our new, glorified bodies, will He not?

then what difference does it make what you do with this empty shell once I die?

bury me, cremate me, feed me to sharks...it doesn't matter.

personally, I want to be one of those SUPERCOOL skeletons in some 9th grade biology class.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 10 2004, 02:21 PM'] from dust you were created, and to the dust you shall return.

these bodies profit us nothing in the afterlife...so why even bother burying them?

God will resurrect in our new, glorified bodies, will He not?

then what difference does it make what you do with this empty shell once I die?

bury me, cremate me, feed me to sharks...it doesn't matter.

personally, I want to be one of those SUPERCOOL skeletons in some 9th grade biology class.  [/quote]
So you aren't offended by the 4 Americans who bodies were dragged in Fallujah, Iraq? It is only an outer-shell, it profits nothing (by what you say).

[Aloysius]

you're body is the temple of the Holy Spirit

just because you leave it doesn't mean it should be disrespected or defaced

IT will be resurected on the last day, God will RESTORE IT, He's not creating you a whole new body but restoring and glorifying the one you had on earth

with God nothing is impossible

PAX

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 10 2004, 12:36 PM'] you're body is the temple of the Holy Spirit

just because you leave it doesn't mean it should be disrespected or defaced

IT will be resurected on the last day, God will RESTORE IT, He's not creating you a whole new body but restoring and glorifying the one you had on earth

with God nothing is impossible

PAX [/quote]
so does the Holy Spirit still reside in your body when you are dead?

are you still in your body when you are dead?

are you saying that God will perfect this corrupt vessel? and that we will not have new bodies, as the bible says we will?

will God resurrect the ashes and mildew that lay in your coffin? or will your spirit be caught up in the heavens with Him, in a body that is incorruptable?

and Amen, with God nothing is impossible.

---------

and Paladin,

it wasn't the fact that they were dragging the bodies thru the streets, it was the fact the bodies were of Americans they had killed. it wasn't the body, it was the action that outraged people.

we shouldn't do anything like that to their bodies, but we shouldn't treat the body like the person is still in it..or that it will be anything more than wormfood once the pine box drops.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 10 2004, 02:45 PM'] we shouldn't do anything like that to their bodies, but we shouldn't treat the body like the person is still in it..or that it will be anything more than wormfood once the pine box drops. [/quote]
And who has said that the St. Peter is still in his remains? No one. We remember what they once were, one of those ways is by preserving their remains. Just as one barries their loved one in a grave yard, and visits their loved one every now and then.

Also, I would be outraged (including everyone in the funeral home), if some stranger were to talk in, and drag my grandfather out of his cassock, and left him on the sidewalk (even though he's already dead). It's an indignity.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jun 10 2004, 01:23 PM'] And who has said that the St. Peter is still in his remains? No one. We remember what they once were, one of those ways is by preserving their remains. Just as one barries their loved one in a grave yard, and visits their loved one every now and then.

Also, I would be outraged (including everyone in the funeral home), if some stranger were to talk in, and drag my grandfather out of his cassock, and left him on the sidewalk (even though he's already dead). It's an indignity. [/quote]
and if Peter were to have been burned alive or cremated, would you still remember what he was by looking at his ashes?

and now you're starting to change the topic of Peter's bones having some significance in Christianity to remembering our loved ones.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 10 2004, 03:34 PM']and if Peter were to have been burned alive or cremated, would you still remember what he was by looking at his ashes?[/quote]
Please read what I said.

[i]"We remember what they once were, [b]one of those ways[/b] is by preserving their remains."[/i]

There are other ways to remember, this is just one of the many ways to do so. It's a tradition that has been done for centuries.

[quote]
and now you're starting to change the topic of Peter's bones having some significance in Christianity to remembering our loved ones.[/quote]

Even the smallest things have significance in Christianity. My personal opinion on the significance on the bones of St. Peter: it gives us Christians an opportunity to see with our own eyes, the remains of a great Apostle which Christ's Church was built upon 2,000 years ago. It's as if you're looking back in time, standing at the presence of a once-living body. It gives us [b]more[/b] of a sense of reality towards those who lived during the Gospel. Even so, some relics have been known to achieve miracles.

It's a similar (or same) reason that museums carry ancient artifacts. It's to preserve our history and heritage, to give us a deeper appreciation and sense of history by actually touching, seeing, or even smelling, and hearing an artifact/relic that existed for so long.

Plus, don't you love St. Peter?

[the lumberjack]

p diddy (paladin d),

I got much love for Peter...but I don't need to see what someone thinks are his bones in order for me to contemplate what a great apostle or servant he was...

over all, it isn't Peter that I think of... its how great Christ is to use someone so quick to act without thinking, jealous, and quick to say what he thinks is right, in His plan.

and yes, I speak of Simon Bar Jonah...aka Simon Peter...aka Peter.

and preserving history and admiring it is fine...I love to look back and see artifacts of historical and religious significance. but looking at Peter's bones (if thats really what they are) will in no wise make me any stronger in Christ...only drawing closer to Christ will.

------

and I'm still waiting for someone to answer my questions from earlier.

God bless.

[Archangel]

I found an article about Peter's presence in Rome at the Catholic Information Network: [url="http://www.cin.org/kc8-5.html"]http://www.cin.org/kc8-5.html[/url]


PETER'S TOMB

In a work issued in 1959, Father Kirschbaum, a member of the archeological commission excavating under the basilica during the 1940's, has given a summary of the findings. These are in brief that it is reasonably certain that the place where St. Peter was buried has been discovered. According to historical records, supplemented by these new discoveries, this is the "history" of the tomb. The Christians buried the Apostle's body in a simple grave on the southern slope of Vatican Hill and covered it with a few brick slabs. Soon other graves were made near that of St. Peter, and these have been recently discovered. Their existence and inscriptions on the wall make clear that from the very first St. Peter's tomb was a place of pilgrimage so that there was uninterrupted Christian veneration and observation of this spot.

About the middle of the second century the grave was marked by a simple monumental slab, the "trophy" mentioned by Father Gaius about 200. During Valerian's persecution, when Christian cemeteries were closed for the first time, St. Peter's relics, but probably only the skull, were moved to a more secure place on the Via Appia. They were returned in the fourth century when Constantine began the first basilica over St. Peter's tomb. To this end he went to great labor and expense to fill up piles on the sloping Vatican Hill to provide a level foundation. This is why St. Peter's tomb is at a considerably lower level than the floor of the Basilica of Constantine and its modern replacement.

St. Gregory the Great carried out extensive alterations between 594 and 604, placing an altar over the tomb, but leaving a shaft through which objects might be lowered to touch the tomb for the veneration of pilgrims. During a Saracen raid in 846 much of the basilica and tomb were plundered, although the actual grave was not penetrated. It was soon after, probably, that the skull was removed and placed, together with that of St. Paul, in the Lateran, where they still remain. To prevent further vandalism the tomb shaft was filled up and the crypt sealed.

In 1503, work was begun to construct the modern basilica which was built over the tomb without disturbing it. During construction some attempts were made to reach the tomb, but were abandoned, it is now clear, before reaching the actual grave. The discoveries of 1940-51, however, successively penetrated the various layers and reached the actual site of the original grave of St. Peter. Here were found bones, all belonging to the same person, "an elderly and vigorous man," with the skull missing.

The cautious archeologists will affirm no more than that these bones were believed to have been those of St. Peter by those who detached the skull for preservation during Valerian's persecution in the third century. In view of the continuous record up to that time of Christian devotion to the tomb, we believe that this ought to be enough to satisfy any reasonable man.

We may conclude, then, that not only St. Peter's authority and spirit, but even the relics of his body, have remained in Rome. Nature and grace have conspired to justify the Latin inscription on the dome of St. Peter's Basilica, towering some 400 feet above the once simple earthen grave: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and I will give you the keys of heaven."

[theculturewarrior]

This thread went from "St. Peter's bones were found in Jerusalem," to "Bones don't matter, feed em to the sharks." Man, we can't stay on task, can we?

(By the way, I was JUST KIDDING about feeding the apostles to the sharks! )

Edited June 11, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

There is extensive evidence from the writings of the Fathers that Peter was indeed in Rome and was crucified there. I don't know how this can be rejected.

[Paladin D]

Ditching [b]Relics[/b] as if they were not important, without value, or even denying that relics can be blessed with the ability to do miracles (not sure if I worded that right), is due to the lack of understanding. I mean, look in [b]2 Kings 13:20-22[/b]...

[i]20 Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year.
21 Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet.[/i]

...even the [b]bones of Elisha[/b] did miracles.

[Quietfire]

That cross looks somewhat like my avatar.



Peace :peace:

Edited June 27, 2004 by Quietfire