Why Is There No Crucifix At The Altar Of Icksp?

[brandelynmarie]

:popcorn:

[Nihil Obstat]

[reminiscere]

Firstly, pdavis, what you have written shows that you have absolutely no proper formation in the Sacred Liturgy - Extraordinary or Ordinary Forms.

 

1) You will never find any priest who thinks that he is consecrating/elevating the Blessed Sacrament "to" an altar crucifix or statue. The Elevation takes place simply for the adoration of the faithful. 

 

2) The GIRM has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the Extraordinary Form. The GIRM only governs the Ordinary Form. Period. Ever heard of the Ritus Servandus? Collectio rerum liturgicarum? Decisions of the Sacred Congregation of Rites? Enough said. 

 

3) There is no stipulation for the size of the altar crucifix, which may also be subsituted by any worthy image of the Crucified: sculpture, painting, print, drawing, stained glass window, etc. It may rest on the mensa, gradine, be placed on top of the tabernacle, or hang above the altar. 

 

4) There is no restriction on a statue or painting or stained glass window depicting Our Lord, Our Lady or any other saint above the altar, only that it may not rest directly on top of the tabernacle itself (only the altar crucifix, monstrance and I believe also relic of the True Cross may be directly on top of the tabernacle). These images may be larger or smaller than the image of the Crucified. 

 

5) Have you ever seen the high altar of the chapel of the Miraculous Icon at Jasna Góra (CzÄ™stochowa) where numerous saints including Pope John Paul II and Maximilian Kolbe offered Mass and the Pope Emeritus prayed as pope? I guess you know better than them. Cause you're the pope, much less ordained or actually studied the rubrics and history of the Sacred Liturgy like they all did... Have you ever seen the Chapel of Grace at Altötting where the Pope Emeritus also prayed as Pope? Zwiefalten Münster? The high altar of Our Lady of Victory in Lackawanna, New York? Thousands of other basilicas, cathedrals, churches and chapels throughout the universal Church? Again, enough said.

 

Study the Catechism, study the Liturgy, pray, stop trolling and shooting your mouth off. Because there are actually people here who know what they're talking about. 

[reminiscere]

P.S. Here are a few photos from Gricigliano, http://blog.messainlatino.it/2009/03/ordinazioni-diaconali-gricigliano.html. I guess if it's good enough for Cardinal Rodé to offer Mass and ordain there (as many other bishops and cardinals) it should be good enough for you. Pretty sure that altar Crucifix is conspicuous enough.

 

And just to be nice, the next time I go to Gricigiliano, I will say a prayer to the Holy Infant of Prague for your intentions. Ciao! 

[reminiscere]

As a final reply, if you've ever been to Gricigliano you'd notice that the statue of the Infant of Prague isn't very large at all, and may be even shorter than the altar crucifix.

 

Also, to answer your mistaken assumption from another thread, the real initials of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest are ICRSS (Latin is Institutum Christi Regis Summi Sacerdotis) in English it's misproperly written as ICKSP... where did you even get Infant of Prague out of that anyway?

[pdavis]

You can go around and around talking about different topics.

 

The fact remains, the statue of the Infant of Prague is placed "above" the very small cross at the altar of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest.  

 

I have NEVER seen a statue placed above a cross or crucifix at the altar of any Catholic church in the United States, because a statue should never be placed above the cross or crucifix at the altar.

[Ash Wednesday]

I haven't noticed any crucifixes disappearing, myself. I recall that in the 80s at my home parish, they used "resurrection Jesus" crucifixes, I guess actually showing the crucifixion was just too "scary" for people at the time or something. But they've since been replaced with traditional ones.

 

For the most part anywhere I've been to mass (including a couple of prominent churches in the UK that provide the EF mass) uses crucifixes.

 

[pdavis]

Ash Wednesday,

 

Thank you for your post.  I was hoping that the crucifix was not disappearing from the altar of the Catholic Church, whether in the US or in Europe.

 

I also noticed the appearance of the resurrected Jesus crucifix, and agree with you regarding the reason.

 

Have a great day...

 

Paul

[Nihil Obstat]

You can go around and around talking about different topics.

The fact remains, the statue of the Infant of Prague is placed "above" the very small cross at the altar of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest.

I have NEVER seen a statue placed above a cross or crucifix at the altar of any Catholic church in the United States, because a statue should never be placed above the cross or crucifix at the altar.

Most Catholic churches in the US are borderline iconoclastic, so I am not surprised.

[Perigrina]

You can go around and around talking about different topics.

 

The fact remains, the statue of the Infant of Prague is placed "above" the very small cross at the altar of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest.  

 

I have NEVER seen a statue placed above a cross or crucifix at the altar of any Catholic church in the United States, because a statue should never be placed above the cross or crucifix at the altar.

 

I am surprised that you have never seen this, because I have seen it many times.  I went to Mass this morning at a church with such an arrangement and am a short drive from several others.  I know of no reason to think that there is a rule against placing a statue above the crucifix at the altar. Here is a picture of such an altar although it may be too small to make out the relevant details:

 

 

I am sorry that some posters have seemed impatient with you.  However, I can understand how they may have grown frustrated.

[pdavis]

Perigrina,

 

Thank you for your insightful response to my question.  You and very few others have responded correctly to my question if anyone has noticed changes in the altars.  Thank you for the picture of the altar. it does seem similar to the other.

 

It appears to me that the altars are changing. I believe in high reverence to the crucifix with the image of our crucified Christ who suffered for our sins.  I am an old-timer from traditional times, and I was taught, and am used to the reverence of the crucifix at the altar with no statues placed above the cross or crucifix at the altar.  The nuns in Catholic school also emphasized the reverence to the crucifix, especially on Good Friday, as they said "all Catholics should be reminded of the extreme suffering Christ suffered for our sins."

 

Thank you!

Paul

[Perigrina]

Perigrina,

 

Thank you for your insightful response to my question.  You and very few others have responded correctly to my question if anyone has noticed changes in the altars.  Thank you for the picture of the altar. it does seem similar to the other.

 

It appears to me that the altars are changing. I believe in high reverence to the crucifix with the image of our crucified Christ who suffered for our sins.  I am an old-timer from traditional times, and I was taught, and am used to the reverence of the crucifix at the altar with no statues placed above the cross or crucifix at the altar.  The nuns in Catholic school also emphasized the reverence to the crucifix, especially on Good Friday, as they said "all Catholics should be reminded of the extreme suffering Christ suffered for our sins."

 

Thank you!

Paul

 

In my personal experience, the churches with a statue above the crucifix were built in the 1800s.  However, I have little experience of church design in Europe.  

 

Ironically, your concern with placement of statues is reflected by the Second Vatican Council document Sacrosanctum Concilium:  

 

125. The practice of placing sacred images in churches so that they may be venerated by the faithful is to be maintained. Nevertheless their number should be moderate and their relative positions should reflect right order. For otherwise they may create confusion among the Christian people and foster devotion of doubtful orthodoxy.

 

So apparently the more traditional practice is placing statues above the crucifix, and the idea that the crucifix should be the highest object is relatively modern.

[Marie-Therese]

Paul,

 

I understand that your sentiments come from a very pure place of desiring that Our Lord be shown the utmost deference, as well He always should.  I've been in few churches in the US (due to lack of occasion) and have not yet seen the crucifix in any lesser position, though obviously through the years and various styles of decor, it has assumed several different places in differing churches.  I say that if  you encounter something on a church altar which gives you concern, pray to God and offer your concern and discomfort as reparation.  

[pdavis]

Marie-Therese,

 

Very well said, that is exactly how I feel! Our Lord should be shown the utmost deference.  My concern is great, to see anything else placed above the crucifix at a Catholic church altar, and seeing anything else does cause concern and discomfort.  I have prayed to God, and will continue to pray to God.

 

Thank You!!

 

Paul

[Nihil Obstat]

What about an arrangement like the following, in which there is an icon of the crucifixion behind and above the altar crucifix?

 

[arfink]

Marie-Therese,

 

Very well said, that is exactly how I feel! Our Lord should be shown the utmost deference.  My concern is great, to see anything else placed above the crucifix at a Catholic church altar, and seeing anything else does cause concern and discomfort.  I have prayed to God, and will continue to pray to God.

 

Thank You!!

 

Paul

 

In all seriousness, if this issue is going to be destructive to your faith, please PLEASE see a priest or a spiritual director or a counselor or something, please. Don't keep on about it here. We can't help you.
 

[pdavis]

Nihil,

 

That is a picture of a very beautiful altar. This is my personal sentiment, that the utmost deference should be to Our Lord, and in my old-timer's eyes, this shows a very high devotion to Christ on the crucifix.

 

My eyesight is not too good, what are the images in between the candles?

 

Thanks.

 

 

[pdavis]

Arfink, this is not destructive to my faith. I asked one question about observations on church altars, and you make this kind of a personal statement???

[arfink]

You just said that seeing the altar arranged in another way causes you concern and discomfort. It's right there...

[pdavis]

Arfink,  there is a difference between destructive and being concerned....