Agony In The Garden

[ithinkjesusiscool]

Pax!
Is it ok to use psychology to explain what the human nature experienced in the garden of Gethsemane?

[chrysostom]

I think it's fine to seek to understand what Jesus' human mind experienced, just as we can use medical knowledge to show what Jesus' human body experienced in crucifixion.

[Spem in alium]

I think it's fine to seek to understand what Jesus' human mind experienced, just as we can use medical knowledge to show what Jesus' human body experienced in crucifixion.

Agreed. I think using psychological and medical knowledge can actually help us to understand Jesus' agony in a deep way.

[Nihil Obstat]

As long as it does not introduce conflict between Christ's human and divine natures.

[ithinkjesusiscool]

I would answer yes but tell you that modern psychology theories can be really crazy. I wouldn't dare ask Freud about Jesus!

Edited June 18, 2014 by ithinkjesusiscool

[Credo in Deum]

I personally do not believe you can analyze the sufferings of Christ through this means.  The Passion of Christ is a mystery.

[Nihil Obstat]

I personally do not believe you can analyze the sufferings of Christ through this means.  The Passion of Christ is a mystery.

I agree. The fact that Christ perfectly united His human and divine natures means that psychology is essentially useless in better understanding Him. We can understand Jesus Christ only in Faith.

[ithinkjesusiscool]

I agree. The fact that Christ perfectly united His human and divine natures means that psychology is essentially useless in better understanding Him. We can understand Jesus Christ only in Faith.

 

Theologian, shut up...everything's a mystery! Sounds kinda sad.

[Nihil Obstat]

A mystery in a theological sense is different from a Ronald Knox type mystery.

[Credo in Deum]

Theologian, shut up...everything's a mystery! Sounds kinda sad.

 

Mysteries are not sad, nor are they anything to feel ashamed of.  Mysteries are constantly a part of our life.  This idea that we can know all things and understand all things - or that we should be able to-, is a temptation that goes as far back as our first parents.   This kind of war on mystery has not gotten better with the advancement of technology.  It's only fitting that Apple's logo is an apple with a bite taken out of it. 

[ithinkjesusiscool]

A mystery in a theological sense is different from a Ronald Knox type mystery.

???

[Nihil Obstat]

???

What?

[ithinkjesusiscool]

What?

 

you wrote something abour Ronald Know and I didn't understand it

[Nihil Obstat]

you wrote something abour Ronald Know and I didn't understand it

Ronald Knox, one of the key authors in the Golden Age of Detective Fiction. Also the sole translator of the Knox Bible, which is considered an exceptional piece of work.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

A mystery is an answer that needs to be sought. Jesus "Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened." Use what ever tools are necessary to find the answer, as long as there not contrary to faith or are demonic. And faith demands we use all human and divine tools. :P

Edited June 20, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

A mystery is an answer that needs to be sought. Jesus "Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened."

 

I was going to only say this and be spooky. :lol:

Edited June 20, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Catherine Therese]

In light of the reality that faith and reason are complimentary, I see no reason why one cannot have a very profound respect for the mystery of Christ, and still seek to understand what they can of His human experience. No matter how much they seek, they will never plumb the depths, so we need not fear that our feeble attempts to learn and grow could ever pose a threat to the mystery of God!

 

A few brief points in support of this claim:

 

1. Last Sunday, Trinity Sunday, our Bishop made the point that the Mystery of the Triune God would never be solved, even when we have the Beatific Vision. He told us that this is NOT because it is somehow unknowable or unreasonable, but precisely because it is INEXHAUSTIBLE. So we will be seeing and experiencing Him for all of eternity and never exhaust His Majesty.... (Seriously, this makes me SO excited for Heaven! #mindblown )

 

2. Pope St John Paul II in his 1996 address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences reminds us that we need never fear the truths to be found in the scientific process, because truth cannot contradict truth. Each truth is but an aspect of the vestige of the Author of Truth, after all.

 

3. The Father willed that we should know Him, and His chosen means of Self-revelation was the Incarnation of His Son. St. Thomas Aquinas is famous for the alarming claim that God became human so that we could become divine. God participated in humanity so that humanity could participate in His Divinity, in His Trinitarian life, which He has made the birthright of our Baptism in Him. He told us that no longer were we slaves, in the dark about what He was doing, but friends, who had some knowledge of what He was doing... He WANTS us to seek to understand His participation in humanity, so that His joy may be in us and our joy may be complete (c.f. Gospel of John chapter 15).  

 

----

Pope St John Paul II, 1996, Message to the participants in the Plenary of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.<http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02tc.htm>

Edited June 21, 2014 by Catherine Therese

[Catherine Therese]

A few remarks by way of guiding such an attempt to apply psychological knowledge to the experience of Christ during His Agony in the Garden:

 

1. An ESSENTIAL principle is that just as philosophy is the handmaiden of theology, so to are the other forms of knowledge.
Each discipline can give us insight into truth, but when there is a subtle flaw in either reasoning or praxis, perhaps one that is not apparent to us, it can lead us away from truth. IF a psychological theory on human experience or on cognitive process or whatever else seems to DENY a truth that you profess, then chances are that something is broken in the logic or the theory somehow. Revelation is the very BENCHMARK of truth. So if you seek to explore aspects of faith through the legitimate application of reason, you must always realise that it is not Revelation that is deficient, but rather your reasoning/process/theory. And then it's back to the drawing board! You will know that you have arrived at truth, at a truly workable theory, when you see that it in no way contradicts those truths we hold to be true. 

 

2. Another essential principle is that, if you are taking a human theory of cognition or experience and applying it to God, it is no longer simply psychology. It has become Theology, too, for it is God whom you seek to study and understand, and this can only happen to the extent that HE allows it. Theology must ALWAYS be done primarily on one's knees. So if all you want to do is think about it, but you don't want to pray about it, I'd recommend leaving it alone. You will FAIL in finding truth unless you have the Author of Truth as your guide. And you could confuse yourself or others in the process. 

 

3. One final principle is based on what my Bishop said, above. The mystery of God is inexhaustible, even in heaven... so if you've ever reasoned yourself to a point where you think you've got it all figured out.... then you're wrong  :) You've messed up BADLY somewhere with your reasoning. That doesn't mean the exercise is pointless - reasoning can give us little insights that are valuable, because each is a discovery of something that He allows you to know to enhance your personal relationship with Him. All we need to do is, in humility and obedience, acknowledge that we must be wrong and return to our prayer, praising Him for the amesomeness of His mystery!! 

 

In support of all of these principles, the only counsel left to offer is the recommendation that you find a learned priest or professor of theology who is known for their fidelity to the Church and for their prudence as well as for being well-credentialed as theologians. You NEED someone smarter than you to help guide you if you become emotionally attached to an idea or theory that might lead you away from Him if it gets the better of your humility.  

Personally, I think all of the above is supremely exciting  :) Maybe that's why I'm a theologian-in-training? All the very best to you in your seeking to know Him more  :)

Edited June 21, 2014 by Catherine Therese

[Dr_Asik]

I agree. The fact that Christ perfectly united His human and divine natures means that psychology is essentially useless in better understanding Him. We can understand Jesus Christ only in Faith.

I don't think so. He was fully human and therefore had a human psychology. The gospels are full of examples of Jesus experiencing typical genuine human emotions such as joy, anger, amazement, pity, etc. In Gethsemani he says "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death".

 

The divine and human natures in Christ did not form a single "superhuman" nature; Christ had both natures which both retained their respective properties. We certainly cannot understand what it was like for Christ to be divine, but we can understand what it was like for him to be human.

[Dr_Asik]

Pax!
Is it ok to use psychology to explain what the human nature experienced in the garden of Gethsemane?

I like way you frame the question by specifying "the human nature" rather than "Christ". Of course if it's just Christ's human nature, then human psychology is applicable. It just becomes a historical problem of determining whether we can claim any meaningful access to the mental states of Jesus - I know many Bible scholars would disagree with that. That said, I think one can picture oneself in that garden, knowing full well that you were about to suffer injustice, mockery, torture, rejection, all kinds of brutality and inhumane treatment, painful agony and death, and reasonably think Jesus would have had similar feelings of horror.

 

At a fundamental level, the suffering of Christ is what makes Christianity acceptable in my eyes - otherwise the problem of evil is not only mysterious but scandalous, with God up there in heaven not really caring about us. Christ's suffering as a human being doesn't explain why evil exists, but at least it shows that God was ready to get down and dirty to get us out of it.

 

Edited June 21, 2014 by Dr_Asik