Question - Women And Veiling Outside Of Mass (especially Cvs)

[freedomreigns]

I understand why some women would want to cover their heads in the chapel.  This is very traditional and could certainly express a deep reverence for the Blessed Sacrament.

 

I do wonder, though, if public veiling might express for some people a bit of a (probably unconscious) desire to "be different" or "stand out."   I am not trying to speak a word of judgment, just something I wonder about.   After I left the convent I did wear a kerchief for a while as I was adjusting to life "in the world" but eventually I let that go.  For me at that point it was a way to stay connected to the life I was leaving behind, and a way to still remember the Presence of God.  At some point, though, I did need to let go of that external practice in order to begin to be a more hidden witness. 

 

There can be for some a great value in external signs, for instance I wear a few medals around my neck.  If someone wants to veil, that I suppose is between that woman and God, and hopefully a spiritual director is possible. However, there is  also something very beautiful about our life as lay people being hidden and modest in the sense of not garnering attention and curiosity.  Ultimately I dress simply and modestly, (but certainly not perpetual long sleeves and turtlenecks,) but there is not much that would make someone wonder about why I wear the things I do.  For me that is the best way.  For others, maybe not.

[Nihil Obstat]

If you haven't said that, then why assume that it's directed at you?

You know it has been stated. So why confuse it now? There are women here who genuinely believe that they will tempt you to commit sin in your heart. You've seen it stated. So why confuse the issue now? This is a cheap internet tactic to distract from the original statement. "I cannot dress nicely or men will sin."

So if you haven't said it directly but others have, why ask if I refer to you? Wouldn't it make more sense to look at the previous posts to see what I'm referring to? Or is that just something pagans do? Because every individual Catholic assumes that everything applies to them specifically.

Now I see why there's such a mess here.

Probably because you quoted me, but I am straightforward like that. Why all the ranting and raving?

[Perigrina]

OH good grief. I've read your profile. you're not a child.

 

Women here talk about being a source of temptation to men. Were men as great as you just said, women would not have to dress so plainly. either they're a temptation or they're not. Pick one and stick to it.

 

I was raised to believe that my body would tempt men to sin. I have since learned that men are human persons who have free will and can choose either to look at a woman with lust or to control themselves. That the god of their belief gives them the strength to either respect women or blame them for the temptation of the so called flesh.

 

You can't have it both ways. Either you cover up for modesty because the good Christian boys can't see your hair without sinning or you do it as a fashion statement to feel holier. Sorry if you can't understand this better but it is what it is.

 

Being subject to sexual temptations is a normal part of the human condition.  Sexual attraction is an involuntary impulse that is not subject to the will. There are good and bad ways to handle the temptation, but it does not magically go away when one respects the opposite sex.  For most people, it takes an effort to overcome these temptations.  I do not want people adding to the temptations that I have to deal with.  In turn, I try not to add to the temptations that others must deal with. (although I am not much of a temptation at my age.)

 

Modesty is a way to express charity and consideration for others.  It is a virtue.  Sometimes people choose modest clothing or practices to show their appreciation of modesty rather than to avoid being a temptation.  For example, few men are likely to be overcome with lust by seeing a woman's hair, but a woman might still choose to cover her head because doing so is a symbol of modesty.  Similarly, at my age, I am more likely to look foolish than to incite lust if I wore short skirts and plunging necklines.  Nevertheless I still wear modest clothing because I believe that modesty is a beautiful thing.  In my case, modest clothing is more symbolic than needed.

 

Dressing modestly does not make me feel holier than other people.  If I think about it, it reminds me of how much I have struggled with purity throughout my life and makes me aware of how weak I am.

[Perigrina]

IYou know it has been stated. So why confuse it now? There are women here who genuinely believe that they will tempt you to commit sin in your heart. You've seen it stated. So why confuse the issue now? This is a cheap internet tactic to distract from the original statement. "I cannot dress nicely or men will sin."

 

 

Where is this statement?  Are you saying that somebody said it on this thread?  I think that I would remember somebody saying something so odd.

[Benedictus]

The few women I know who cover their hair, both Muslims and Christians, do so for their own reasons and they do it freely. It isn't about not tempting men for them. They recognise that men aren't that interested in their hair!

Sure, you may find women who also think the head covering helps reduce unwanted sexual advances. I don't see anything wrong with that either.  But what I was told is that the covering is more about sacredness, boundaries and affirmation of the principles they hold.

Whatever helps a person advance and operate in the world, freely chosen, should be supported. A person maybe interested as to why they cover in order to understand, that's fair enough. But it doesn't seem right that an individual should project their presumptions, experiences and issues with the practice onto other women who choose to cover their hair (for worship, or all the time)

Edited June 25, 2014 by Benedictus

[freedomreigns]

I agree, not specifically related to the veil subject, that sometimes when modesty is discussed we can perpetuate a notion that women's bodies are shameful or somehow evil, or that men are not responsible for their own thoughts.  

 

I am not advocating throwing all modesty out the window, but I would think that wearing long sleeves in Florida in the summer would be silly, as if there is something innately immodest about showing one's arms.  We have to have a little common sense too.

[freudianslippers]

I'm fine with the statement as long as it's about a woman doing what she wants. It bothers me when a woman says that she can't be a temptation to men. Men and women are not inequal A woman should not have to be afraid of what a man thinks and vice versa. And I did read about dressing simply so as not to tempt men earlier in the thread.

 

This isn't aimed to attack women for what they want, but no one should feel compelled to cover up because someone else can't respect you.

 

And with that, I sign off. Back to my regular haunts where I am actually welcomed and valued as a human being.

The few women I know who cover their hair, both Muslims and Christians, do so for their own reasons and they do it freely. It isn't about not tempting men for them. They recognise that men aren't that interested in their hair!

Sure, you may find women who also think the head covering helps reduce unwanted sexual advances. I don't see anything wrong with that either.  But what I was told is that the covering is more about sacredness, boundaries and affirmation of the principles they hold.

Whatever helps a person advance and operate in the world, freely chosen, should be supported. A person maybe interested as to why they cover in order to understand, that's fair enough. But it doesn't seem right that an individual should project their presumptions, experiences and issues with the practice onto other women who choose to cover their hair (for worship, or all the time)

 

 

[Perigrina]

I agree, not specifically related to the veil subject, that sometimes when modesty is discussed we can perpetuate a notion that women's bodies are shameful or somehow evil, or that men are not responsible for their own thoughts.  

 

I am not advocating throwing all modesty out the window, but I would think that wearing long sleeves in Florida in the summer would be silly, as if there is something innately immodest about showing one's arms.  We have to have a little common sense too.

 

I hardly ever get the impression from a discussion of modesty that anyone thinks that women's bodies are shameful or evil.  It does come up pretty often that women's bodies tend to be attractive to men,  That is just the way it s and I do not see why it should not be discussed or considered.

 

I remember being a young woman and wanting to dress in a sexually provocative way.  It gave me a feeling of power.  I was was being wrong and selfish when I did that.  I had to take responsibility for my choices.

 

I think that a lot of factors go into what a person considers modest.  I use traditional Catholic guidelines because I do not trust my own judgment since this used to be an area where I was very messed up.  I want and need rules because of who I am.  But I do not expect everyone to be like me.  I know there are women who can just go with their instincts and not really think about it.  

[fides' Jack]

FreedomReigns and FreudianSlippers - it seems to me this topic was not started to argue about how women should dress.  If you want to do that, start a new thread, or go bump one that's actually about that.

[fides' Jack]

I want to add that another reason my wife chooses to do so is a way of preserving something of herself for me.  It's not about hiding anything; it's about giving something extra.

[freedomreigns]

FreedomReigns and FreudianSlippers - it seems to me this topic was not started to argue about how women should dress.  If you want to do that, start a new thread, or go bump one that's actually about that.

 

 

I am wondering why I get a special mention when the topic of modesty had most certainly been brought up several times before me?  See below...

 

Another thing that I didnt like - modesty should never be relative to secular society. Anyone following St Padre Pio's guidelines of dress being 8 inches below the knee, two fingers or less below the collarbone, long sleeves etc would stand out in miami or florida where society dresses very immodestly. does that mean the woman shold strip off? No! does it mean she is prideful by remaining modest? NO!!

and yes, the Lord does look to the heart, but that is no reason not to be modest in our clothing, scripture also gives us guidelines for modesty in dress, which it would not do unless our externals mattered too.
 

 

This one below is particularly striking to me.  Apparently if you think people may seek spiritual advice from you, you must be sure not to be "pretty."  And you would have to cry for someone's soul if he noticed you and would have to think it is your fault and you led him to think of sin.  

 

i do kind of agree with you. i didnt used to. i used to think the CV shoudl look like any other laypeson. but then, MY PERSONAL OPINION is that it just didnt seem fitting to spend time co-ordinating outfits or shopping, or even dressing to look attactive. i wished to conceal the shape of my body, and cover my flesh in long loose dresses from wrists to ankles in very modest dress, in earthy colours which did not draw attention. this was partly for ease of dress, but also because naturally people will be seeking your spiritual advice, and you do not want guys checking you out or looking at if you look pretty. it is easier to have a barrier if you are clearly wearing something plain and dull. partly because if a guy did check me out, i would ory for his own soul lest i led him to think of sin, and i would be embarrassed if he was atracted to me since i am maried to God. i would feel like it was my fault. 

 

 

 

 

I completely agree that if you follow modesty standards like from St Padre Pio, you would stand out in our culture because of the immodesty of our culture. I follow St Padre Pio's standards and often I do feel I look different. I don't want to look different. I just think it's harder in our culture to "fit in" than in previous times, because the clothing is more generally immodest. In other times like the 1930s, it was much easier. Pope Pius XII said that we shouldn't totally ignore what people are wearing so that we look ridiculous - but that fashion is not the most important thing and we should have values that go above it that can't be sacrificed. He said also that sensitivity to modesty is actually a good sign in a soul, and that the garment should not be evaluated based on a decadent society (like ours..) but on a virtuous society that praises dignity of dress. So I don't think it's fully cultural, and certain things will never be modest no matter how "used" people are to them. It's regretful that we have to stand out if we want to be modest in our culture, but that's the problem with the culture, not modesty. We can still wear "contemporary" dress but maybe in ways that aren't "fashionable" (like wearing a long skirt with sleeves instead of with a tank top which is more fashionable today). I don't at all look down on women who look different from the culture though - they are trying hard to be modest, which is more difficult today than in previous decades.

 

 

 

 

 

So, I guess I am still not exactly sure why I am in particular getting called out on expressing my opinion about common sense in the way women should think about themselves and their bodies and how to dress.  The original poster is the one who brought up modesty on the first page, so I doubt that my mentioning it 4 pages later is much of a problem in not going with the topic of the thread.

 

Maybe you only noticed my comment because you don't agree with my point of view.  

[freedomreigns]

double post 

 

Edited June 27, 2014 by freedomreigns

[freedomreigns]

Also, Mary's Little Flower, I only quoted you above as an example of the topic of modesty being mentioned well before my input.  I think I may agree with your point of view in part.  (Although you are probably more strict in your standards.)

 

And the same with Oremus1.  I quoted your post to point out that me expressing my opinion was not completely out of the blue.  I was snarky in my tone above about your post that I quoted, and I am sorry about that.  It was wrong of me.

 

 I do, however, disagree with the idea that a lay woman, consecrated or not, needs to dress in dull or shapeless clothing to conceal her shape. There is actually nothing wrong with being a woman and having a womanly shape.  I don't mean that revealing clothing is appropriate, and I do believe that a common sense modesty is important, but I don't think that it is necessary to dress in a way that is unbecoming or hides that female frame.

Edited June 27, 2014 by freedomreigns

[fides' Jack]

I am wondering why I get a special mention when the topic of modesty had most certainly been brought up several times before me?  See below...

 

 

This one below is particularly striking to me.  Apparently if you think people may seek spiritual advice from you, you must be sure not to be "pretty."  And you would have to cry for someone's soul if he noticed you and would have to think it is your fault and you led him to think of sin.  

 

 

 

 

 

So, I guess I am still not exactly sure why I am in particular getting called out on expressing my opinion about common sense in the way women should think about themselves and their bodies and how to dress.  The original poster is the one who brought up modesty on the first page, so I doubt that my mentioning it 4 pages later is much of a problem in not going with the topic of the thread.

 

Maybe you only noticed my comment because you don't agree with my point of view.  

 

Hm...  No, I just didn't read all the posts.  I saw (on that page) posts from the two people I named and responded to those.  Perhaps I shouldn't have named anyone, and just left it open.

 

In all honesty, I don't agree with 95% of people here (especially women - and including those mentioned), when it comes to modesty.  But I didn't want to be the one to start that fight in this thread.  The topic seemed undeserving of that.

[freedomreigns]

Ok, no worries!  

[Ice_nine]

Clothes came after the fall of humanity.

Ergo, God hates clothes. All clothes.

 

QED

[brandelynmarie]

:doh: