OnlySunshine Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Within the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal the "lay brothers" in final profession are fully members of the community and do indeed have voting rights. They are just not ordained. So they are fully religious but not priests. Thank you for clarifying. I thought that was the answer but I don't like to answer until I'm fully certain. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1054 Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 I'm thinking a lot of my original confusion came from approaching this with an Orthodox background. In Orthodox monasticism it is quite common that monks are not ordained priests. From what I've come across in Catholicism it seems that sometimes 'lay brother' is used to describe a monk who has taken vows and is not a priest and at other times 'lay brother' is a completely separate role. Is this correct, or have I misunderstood again? Might have been easier if I had simply kept the question regarding the role of 'lay sisters' which avoids the issue of ordination altogether!! Although I must say, I am thoroughly enjoying the responses and the further questions that have been raised! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNJM Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 People use words like "Nun" when referring to a "Sister," not knowing that there is a specific and clearly defined difference. In my experience, "lay nuns" (since you are interested in particular the life of women religious) are indeed sometimes called that when in fact they are Oblates. Formerly, as discussed, Third Order, Oblate or Tertiary were terms also used more frequently in the Church even though today we still have Communities that actively support and invite that kind of membership. Today, I hear Associate often with active religious women. Much depends upon the community and the work. In Los Angeles, I can think of two active orders who work with the poor and live in community, inviting Associates to be a part of their community life. I know these two communities well and in knowing their Associates (as they are called), the Associates do not take Vows, but make Promises, keep their finances separate and wear something that identifies them as being connected to the Community but not as Vowed Sisters. (As an example, the SIsters might wear a simple skirt and veil, while the Associates wear a simple skirt and shirt with a large Crucifix.) The women that I know who live and work with the Sisters keep the same schedule as the Community - including living simply, praying and celibacy. Obedience is a different situation as these communities are not structured with specific requests that would require obedience (such as "Sister, you will be moving to Arkansas next month to teach the 5th grade, even though your family is here and you've lived in this area for 40 years.") - however, again, based upon my own knowledge, the women I know who actually live with the Sisters and share in their life are thoughtful in terms of obedience in asking one another, "What are we called to do?" which obviously sometimes will take one out of their comfort zone to a place of service previously not experienced. I also know of two houses of Associates from the same community who live together in community, with communal prayer and they share in the work of the community, though not as recognized Religious Women. I would like to mention that in order to become a "lay member" which is in fact the correct general term, there is a period of study and formation which leads to Promises and recognition of the person's journey. Most communities who offer this insist that a professed Religious Member "sponsor" or mentor the person that is wanting to enter into this kind of relationship. I must also point out that across our globe there are in fact "lay members" (third order) who do in fact live within the Monastery and in many cases, wear the habit of the community. The only difference with these members and the Nuns themselves is that the "lay members" have not taken vows, but again, promises, and are financially independent. The Carthusians still carry on the practice of accepting "Donates," which is the closest I can come up with for their version of an "Oblate." This vocation, of being a "lay member" of a congregation, community, monastery, whatever, is unique and not "less than" any other vocation.It can solve many problems for people who feel called to live a certain spirituality and yet, for whatever reason, cannot make vows. Some women do not want to make Vows (for personal reasons) but want to live the life and spirituality of a congregation they have connected with. Finally, whatever you choose to call today's "lay members" of a community, even if they live within a Monastery and are dressed in a habit, they do not have voting rights, and are usually excluded from meetings about finances, acceptance of a new member, voting on final/solemn vows for a member ready for that - in general any "business" related to the running of the Monastery or congregation. The older use of "Lay Monk/Lay Nun" referred to an almost "caste system" within Monastic life, wherein the less educated (usually the poorer members) were relegated to the more menial tasks of running a large Monastery while the "Choir Monks/Nuns" were the ones that carried on the Opus Dei (chanting the Divine Office) and were found (or trained) to use their talents in a more distinguished manner (as writers, calligraphers, positions of leadership), and this kind of separation today is seen as something that is not fully in imitation of Christ, so for all the reasons mentioned above, this particular use of the words is not what it used to be. I hope this helps you, Rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1054 Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 Thank you, Rose! There's been so much wonderful information from everyone :joecool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximillion Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 How wondrous and varied are the opportunities for serving God and being called!!! Great question 1054! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandelynmarie Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 I second that! Fascinating history lesson here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marigold Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 I do think the Carthusians still have the lay/choir distinction. That would seem to be because of their particular set-up, with the focus on the choir monks and nuns being 'in cell' all the time. I've definitely seen a photo of a lay sister delivering food to a choir nun... And then there's Into Great Silence where the lay brothers are in blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNJM Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Dear Marigold, The Carthusians consider the vocation of a brother or a "sister" to be two different vocations altogether. The brothers (non-ordained religious) are the Sisters (perhaps best thought of as "externs") are called specifically to be of service to the community through the menial and hard labor tasks (though the ordained and solemnly professed Nuns are also at times called to do hard manual labor as befitting the needs of their particular Charterhouse) for the benefit of the community. They have different rules in terms of their schedule and are expected at certain functions per the Prior's/Prioress's discretion. This is very different than someone entering a Monastery and being automatically relegated to a "lesser" role within the Monastery because of their lack of education, birth name or rank. In Carthusian Monasteries, you will see that the religious are allowed in all parts of the Monastery (again with permission pertaining to their work and formation) whereas in the Church pre-Vatican II, there was a clear distinction which was not at all based in charity or unconditional love for one another. I have found the Carthusians to be deeply appreciative of the vocation of a brother/sister for it is their work which makes the life of the Monastery feasible. It would be impossible for them to live as they do without the constant ebb and flow of the work outside of the cell, the center of the Carthusian's life, hence my comparison to that of an extern. The Parkminster Charterhouse has a gift shop with a great collection of books that are available over the internet. They are very fast in delivery and I recommend anybody interested in their life to take a look at their website. The Charterhouse in Vermont also has a gift shop, but it is not as extensive as the one in England. I hope this fleshes out your understanding of the Carthusian way of life. Rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marigold Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Dear Marigold, The Carthusians consider the vocation of a brother or a "sister" to be two different vocations altogether. The brothers (non-ordained religious) are the Sisters (perhaps best thought of as "externs") are called specifically to be of service to the community through the menial and hard labor tasks (though the ordained and solemnly professed Nuns are also at times called to do hard manual labor as befitting the needs of their particular Charterhouse) for the benefit of the community. They have different rules in terms of their schedule and are expected at certain functions per the Prior's/Prioress's discretion. This is very different than someone entering a Monastery and being automatically relegated to a "lesser" role within the Monastery because of their lack of education, birth name or rank. In Carthusian Monasteries, you will see that the religious are allowed in all parts of the Monastery (again with permission pertaining to their work and formation) whereas in the Church pre-Vatican II, there was a clear distinction which was not at all based in charity or unconditional love for one another. I have found the Carthusians to be deeply appreciative of the vocation of a brother/sister for it is their work which makes the life of the Monastery feasible. It would be impossible for them to live as they do without the constant ebb and flow of the work outside of the cell, the center of the Carthusian's life, hence my comparison to that of an extern. The Parkminster Charterhouse has a gift shop with a great collection of books that are available over the internet. They are very fast in delivery and I recommend anybody interested in their life to take a look at their website. The Charterhouse in Vermont also has a gift shop, but it is not as extensive as the one in England. I hope this fleshes out your understanding of the Carthusian way of life. Rose Thanks, that's very interesting! I realised that it was mostly to do with making the life in cell possible, but I'm glad that it didn't come out of a class-based view of monastic life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1054 Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 Cross reference: http://go.osuit.edu/communications/news/content/monk-and-culinary-student-br-george-hubl-uses-cooking-express-creativity There's been talk lately in other threads about the role of lay brothers. Here's one who's in culinary school so he can cook for the monks of St. Gregory's in OK. Not earth shattering, but nice. Thanks for sharing this! I wonder if there will be a sudden demand for exotic lentil recipes at OSUIT.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 It would seem the logical thing when cooking for a community which [1] may have limited budgets, but [2] those with specific dietary needs [as the community ages, there will be a need for special diets such as low sodium, diabetic, low fat, etc.] to have someone train as a dietician/professional cook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissylou Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 In discussing the lay brothers/lay sisters of earlier monasticism, I think we need to remember that monasticism is really really really old. Much older than the printing press. In short, it's really really hard to be a choir monk/nun if you can't read. And nearly universal literacy is a pretty recent phenomenon. So, to have some division of labor made sense, both because God's call is not limited to people who can read and also because there are a lot of different jobs to be done to keep things running. And, well, human beings are human beings and it shouldn't surprise anyone that monastic life in the medieval era reflected general medieval understandings about class. That having been said, the distinctions were only abolished in the 1960s. And just about everyone could read for a good long while before the 1960s. So probably some reforms were overdue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissylou Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Also I was just thinking, that I was hearing an interview of two Jesuit astronomers a while back -- one is a priest and one is a brother. Unlike, say, the Benedictines or Franciscans, the overwhelming majority of Jesuits are priests. There are (and always have been) some brothers, but a small proportion. This person is a brother, but he is most certainly highly educated, and he's not spending his days keeping the household running. He's an astrophysicist. He was also an older vocation so maybe (and I'm just guessing here and could be totally totally wrong) it simply didn't make sense for him to spend as much time in full-time theology study as he'd need to prepare for ordination. Some, yes, but less than is required for ordination. Choosing the lay brother path might just have made more sense for his stage in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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