Various Customs

[SNJM]

Regarding the underwear issue - I know of a community here in the US who "share" the outer part of their "underwear." That part is returned from the laundry in small, medium, large. The more "intimate" part of what I think most of us are thinking of when it comes to "underwear" is marked with a sign, particular to each Sister. So, I'm wondering if there might be slight language misunderstandings based on what is considered "underclothing/underwear."

And, I do know of one cloistered community that is extremely focused on the poverty of Christ. They do, in fact, wear what is given to them, and take the concept of complete poverty and lack of ownership very seriously. They are also quite penitential and see things like this, which average women (especially Americans) find really distasteful as an opportunity to be "debased for Jesus." I know the particulars of the last community because I had TWO clients who were there; the second one was referred to me by the first who left. I do not believe this particular community has a healthy understanding of poverty and though the garments were heavily bleached, I'm not convinced one has to go such lengths to understand the concept of poverty or the suffering of Jesus. If anybody is seriously discerning with a contemplative community in California, and would like details - thinking this might sound familiar, don't hesitate to PM me.

Blessings,
Rose

[Hemma]

Actually I don't think that it was a misunderstanding. For sure they have debated about it as well as we did and then it would have become clear if it was a misunderstanding.

 

By the way - the nuns of the abbey in question produce victuals - I don't say which to keep it anonymously - but something that needs high hygienic standards and gets checked regularly, so we can be sure the nuns know a lot about hygiene. That's why I thought it particularly astonishing.

 

[Bride of the Lamb]

By the way - the nuns of the abbey in question produce victuals - I don't say which to keep it anonymously - but something that needs high hygienic standards and gets checked regularly, so we can be sure the nuns know a lot about hygiene. That's why I thought it particularly astonishing.

I've really got the feeling that this is the same abbey. Let's play 20 questions: Is it built in an old style but is actually not that old? ;)

[Hemma]

Yes:)

[Bride of the Lamb]

Yes:)

My, that was quick!  :detective:

[Hemma]

I suppose you've got it? I'd be very interested in what you were thinking of when you wrote "they're rather, ahem, particular".

[Bride of the Lamb]

I suppose you've got it? I'd be very interested in what you were thinking of when you wrote "they're rather, ahem, particular".

Quite a bit of things, but (this is, why I immediately thought of them), they let at least newcomers ask for every single sanitary napkin they need. Nothing agaist poverty and obedience, of course, but is there any sane way which bypasses a sanitary napkin when one needs it?

[emma8201986]

I'm sorry, but the underwear thing and asking for sanitary napkins is just a bridge too far for me. These are adult 21st century women we are talking about. I think there are plenty of ways to learn obedience without turning it into humiliation - and please, don't anyone tell me that we should be happy to humiliate ourselves for the Lord. I just don't believe that nor do I believe it is psychologically healthy. I have a male acquaintance who was a Dominican (he has since left - full disclosure) and I was amazed at the amount of freedom he had in novitiate where he was ostensibly learning obedience.

[maximillion]

We used to have to beg our SN's but I thought that had gone out with the ark!!

[twohearts]

Men's religious communities always were & still are less demanding & less rigid than Women's communities were or still are....

[Hemma]

@ Bride of the Lamb: Perhaps the professed nuns have linen ones and wash them too... :lol4: Sorry I can't help...

A friend of mine used such due to medical intolerances and made good experiences. But she hadn't to share them with others.  :hehe2: 

Have you been in closer contact to them? Just for my interest.

 

In my former community we had a cupboard in the bathroom with all necessary supply (shampoo, shower gel, sanitary napkins...). Every sister took what she needed. There's no danger for misuse. Why should one.

 

@Twohearts: Most true...

[emma8201986]

Twohearts - I agree. I wouldn't like a community that treats its sisters like children to instill obedience when men, who presumably learn the same obedience, do not. Maybe there was a reason for that a few hundred years ago but not today.

[Hemma]

However you can't neglect fundamental differences between men and women. This is not tradition, it's nature.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Senensis

[MarieLynn]

In the Order that I was once part of, from our first weeks as a postulant right the way thru to Final Vows and beyond, we were required to ask permission from our Superiors for the use of everything, and I mean everything.    Handkerchiefs, SN's, shampoo, toothpaste, soap, pens, paper, permission to cut our hair, write letters - the list was endless.  To obtain another roll of toilet tissue, we had to bring the hard cardboard inner core, to prove to Mother that it did in fact need replacing.   It was designed to teach us humility and obedience, and to bend our wills to those of our Superior, who was God's representative.   This was in the 1960's, and  the practice of having to "ask" for everything, had been in force since the Order's foundation some 100 years earler.   

 

After Vat 2, and  Cardinal Suenens paper on the role of the nun in the modern world had been released, the heirachy of the Order went back to the spirit of their founder, and along with many of the more archaic traditions, that the Order finally felt held no religious significance, and had just been handed down over time  as de rigeur,  the practice was discontinued, and a common cupboard was established where Sisters helped themselves to what was needed, when it was needed.

 

The older sisters had a harder time adapting to this new method than we younger ones, but it was almost liberating (didn't know that word existed until many years later)  the first time I went to this cupboard and took out a cake of soap without first having to ask permission!  

 

[Nunsense]

In the Order that I was once part of, from our first weeks as a postulant right the way thru to Final Vows and beyond, we were required to ask permission from our Superiors for the use of everything, and I mean everything.    Handkerchiefs, SN's, shampoo, toothpaste, soap, pens, paper, permission to cut our hair, write letters - the list was endless.  To obtain another roll of toilet tissue, we had to bring the hard cardboard inner core, to prove to Mother that it did in fact need replacing.   It was designed to teach us humility and obedience, and to bend our wills to those of our Superior, who was God's representative.   This was in the 1960's, and  the practice of having to "ask" for everything, had been in force since the Order's foundation some 100 years earler.   

 

After Vat 2, and  Cardinal Suenens paper on the role of the nun in the modern world had been released, the heirachy of the Order went back to the spirit of their founder, and along with many of the more archaic traditions, that the Order finally felt held no religious significance, and had just been handed down over time  as de rigeur,  the practice was discontinued, and a common cupboard was established where Sisters helped themselves to what was needed, when it was needed.

 

The older sisters had a harder time adapting to this new method than we younger ones, but it was almost liberating (didn't know that word existed until many years later)  the first time I went to this cupboard and took out a cake of soap without first having to ask permission!  

 

 

I was in a 1990 Carmel in England where they still require sisters to ask for toilet paper. It was called 'pocket paper' and we were given one toilet roll, which we left in our cells. We tore off the amount we thought we would need for that day and put it in our pocket to use. When the roll ran out, we had to ask for another. Once, when I asked for another roll, I was chastised for using too much and told that 3 pieces should be sufficient each time I used the toilet. It was very embarrassing, I have to admit.

 

We also had to ask permission each time we wanted a drink of water, even though we had a jug in our cell. We had to ask permission to use that water as well. Every single little thing we used required permission -- and that convent is still doing it that way today as far as I know (I was there in 2009).

 

My community now thankfully doesn't monitor my toilet paper use! :p

[OnlySunshine]

I was in a 1990 Carmel in England where they still require sisters to ask for toilet paper. It was called 'pocket paper' and we were given one toilet roll, which we left in our cells. We tore off the amount we thought we would need for that day and put it in our pocket to use. When the roll ran out, we had to ask for another. Once, when I asked for another roll, I was chastised for using too much and told that 3 pieces should be sufficient each time I used the toilet. It was very embarrassing, I have to admit.

 

We also had to ask permission each time we wanted a drink of water, even though we had a jug in our cell. We had to ask permission to use that water as well. Every single little thing we used required permission -- and that convent is still doing it that way today as far as I know (I was there in 2009).

 

My community now thankfully doesn't monitor my toilet paper use! :P

 

I really wouldn't be able to put up with some of the rules of obedience in some strict communities.  I know obedience is important, but when you have to ask about things that are basic human needs, it gets a little weird.  That's why I think I'd fit better in a "middle of the road" community where obedience is required for things that aren't necessary.  Humility is important but I think asking about everything would be humiliating in an embarrassing way.  But that's just me and I'm glad I know my limitations.  ;)

[twohearts]

Yes, we had to ask permission for everything & I mean everything! We used folded diapers as sanitary pads. They were first washed by us & then put in the community wash.

We washed our uncut hair only twice a month & took a bath 2xs a week. Our daily habits were washed only twice a year. We asked permission to use the toilet & drink water.

There was no end to it. Still, you know what? We were happy! We hardly ever were ill either....Of course everything changed w/time....

[Nunsuch]

I think there is a big and important difference between humility and humilitation....

[brandelynmarie]

Agreed. :)

[Credo in Deum]

Twohearts - I agree. I wouldn't like a community that treats its sisters like children to instill obedience when men, who presumably learn the same obedience, do not. Maybe there was a reason for that a few hundred years ago but not today.

Maybe the reason for it is to teach detachment? I mean if we're going to let a pair of underwear come between us and heaven then maybe we have our priorities out of order. Plus the vow of poverty should also bring to our minds the situation of many of the homeless who would love to even have a clean pair of underwear, let alone a constant supply of it, regardless of if it is a hand me down or someone else's. I mean just for them to know that they would have a constant supply of said clean underwear would probably make them cry with joy. Edited August 2, 2014 by Credo in Deum