What Is It Like To Live The Vow Of Obedience?

[chrysostom]

What is it like to live the vow of obedience?

 

I'm asking this specifically of Catholic religious but obviously anyone is free to reply.  I'm especially interested in the perspectives of those with longer experience in a religious community who are well past final profession of vows. I asked this of an elderly monk and I remember getting an edifying response but I can't remember what he said anymore. :paperbag:

 

But yes, any input would be appreciated.  Also any book recommendations.  :pope2:

 

Thanks! (:

[truthfinder]

I have no experience in this matter, but I will say that various communities understand obedience in different ways (particularly between active and contemplative communities). The others will chime in on details.

[Catherine Therese]

I'm younger than your target interview set, and didn't end up making vows, so was only every "informally" living obedience.

I'd love to share a few comments on what I grew to learn through living obedience in spirit, if not yet in vow (because it was life-changing) but I'll wait until you've heard the insights and experiences from people who have lived obedience under vows that you are seeking.

[SophiaMaria]

Blessed columba Marmion wrote some beautiful things on the vow of obedience. His works and letters are worth reading

[maximillion]

From an ex-nun who was 14 years in the cloister........

 

Freeing.

When the externals of life are no longer of any particular concern ( I mean like having to earn your living, decide what to wear, decide what to eat and shop and prepare it, decide what to spend money on etc etc etc), when one's life is almost micromanaged by the rhythm of the liturgy and the rule, then there is lots of time and headspace.

The time thing is an interesting one because there is never an idle moment, yet the day is an endless flow of being obedient to His voice so has a sort of spaciousness about it that I can't quite explain.

Of course, to get to having less concern over the externals one has to relinquish control over the details. In 14 years I made no decision over what to eat. what to wear, when to bath, when to change my sheets, when to pray, when to sing, when to talk, who to talk with, what to talk about, how my 'work' hours were spent, and mostly, even how to pray!

(There are times when the rhythm of the LOTH can become a trial too!)

I could weed the carrots with my right or my left hand. That was about the limit of my personal choice and control.

 

I could choose to embrace this not choosing with grace and elegance or I could chafe and mutter.

You also have to guard against everything becoming not important. It is an easy ego defence to get into ceasing to care about any of those things. That is not obedience, it's denial. This is why St Theresa's Little Way is so incredible. Trying for perfection in the smallest of things makes you care about them. To care about them and not be attached to being in control of them is a lifelong slog like trying to grind granite in a mortar and pestle.

 

Let me give an example.

 

Brushing the cloister.

Sounds so simple. Ha!

There is first: attitude to the task, keeping one's recollection, being humble and obedient and doing a good job, with good grace and a positive attitude.

Now. I know that cloister was swept yesterday, and Mother said I could go help out in the Library afterwards. (YAY!)

Can I make this one simple task a step towards perfection, of total union with Him?

Can I do it in such a way as if I were to die now I would have accomplished one perfect final act for Him?

Can I hold in my conscious awareness that this task, this cloister, this moment of obedience is all I have to offer?

This is how our life of penance and contemplation was explained to me by my NM.

So, tiring too. I fell into bed every night and was almost asleep before my head touched down. Such intensity in tiny things demands so much effort.

 

From this you can see that the evangelical counsels are not in fact separate entities. They join together and flow into and around each other so that sometimes one's obedience is found in charity, or in poverty, or sometimes poverty imposes that obedience........

 

Then there is what most people find quite irksome, asking permission for everything.

In another post I said that we were given a permission in advance to have a drink if we were working in the fields, because it saved time having to come up to the house, find a Superior and ask for permission for a drink of water. The vow of poverty means nothing is mine, not even a nun's right to give away a song, as Mother Mary Francis OCD noted. 

And because nothing is mine, I have no right to take it unto myself, even a drink of water. An example of poverty and obedience working alongside.

 

I could continue, but you get a flavour.

It is different of course in different communities and for those with an active apostolate.

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

From an ex-nun who was 14 years in the cloister........

 

Freeing.

When the externals of life are no longer of any particular concern ( I mean like having to earn your living, decide what to wear, decide what to eat and shop and prepare it, decide what to spend money on etc etc etc), when one's life is almost micromanaged by the rhythm of the liturgy and the rule, then there is lots of time and headspace.

The time thing is an interesting one because there is never an idle moment, yet the day is an endless flow of being obedient to His voice so has a sort of spaciousness about it that I can't quite explain.

Of course, to get to having less concern over the externals one has to relinquish control over the details. In 14 years I made no decision over what to eat. what to wear, when to bath, when to change my sheets, when to pray, when to sing, when to talk, who to talk with, what to talk about, how my 'work' hours were spent, and mostly, even how to pray!

(There are times when the rhythm of the LOTH can become a trial too!)

I could weed the carrots with my right or my left hand. That was about the limit of my personal choice and control.

 

I could choose to embrace this not choosing with grace and elegance or I could chafe and mutter.

You also have to guard against everything becoming not important. It is an easy ego defence to get into ceasing to care about any of those things. That is not obedience, it's denial. This is why St Theresa's Little Way is so incredible. Trying for perfection in the smallest of things makes you care about them. To care about them and not be attached to being in control of them is a lifelong slog like trying to grind granite in a mortar and pestle.

 

Let me give an example.

 

Brushing the cloister.

Sounds so simple. Ha!

There is first: attitude to the task, keeping one's recollection, being humble and obedient and doing a good job, with good grace and a positive attitude.

Now. I know that cloister was swept yesterday, and Mother said I could go help out in the Library afterwards. (YAY!)

Can I make this one simple task a step towards perfection, of total union with Him?

Can I do it in such a way as if I were to die now I would have accomplished one perfect final act for Him?

Can I hold in my conscious awareness that this task, this cloister, this moment of obedience is all I have to offer?

This is how our life of penance and contemplation was explained to me by my NM.

So, tiring too. I fell into bed every night and was almost asleep before my head touched down. Such intensity in tiny things demands so much effort.

 

From this you can see that the evangelical counsels are not in fact separate entities. They join together and flow into and around each other so that sometimes one's obedience is found in charity, or in poverty, or sometimes poverty imposes that obedience........

 

Then there is what most people find quite irksome, asking permission for everything.

In another post I said that we were given a permission in advance to have a drink if we were working in the fields, because it saved time having to come up to the house, find a Superior and ask for permission for a drink of water. The vow of poverty means nothing is mine, not even a nun's right to give away a song, as Mother Mary Francis OCD noted. 

And because nothing is mine, I have no right to take it unto myself, even a drink of water. An example of poverty and obedience working alongside.

 

I could continue, but you get a flavour.

It is different of course in different communities and for those with an active apostolate.

 

Actually, maximillion, you did have to choose all the things you said you didn't because if you didn't there would have been no virtue. The vow of obedience may mean we submit our will to another but we don't relinquish our intellect. We need to choose to be obedient. When it becomes a true virtue it may seem in a sense "second nature" but that is one of the characteristics of a true virtue.

 

The practice of asking permission to do almost anything, including a drinking a glass of water, is no longer the case in most monastic communities but that doesn't mean that obedience isn't being lived. One is submitting to the will of the Father as made known by one's rule, the superior, ones sisters, the circumstances of the moment, etc. I totally agree with you that it is intense and one goes to bed tired! Head hits pillow and bang! I'm asleep!

 

I would say that as the years go by obedience is more demanding because you have experience from the years of living the life so, it's not always easy to submit ones will to another. But you do because of love. Obedience is freeing when it is truly virtuous. In reality obedience rarely is about fulfilling the vow. It is more about growing in virtue. I actually make lots of choices about a lot of things each day but that is within a life of obedience. I must at any moment be willing to let go of those choices and plans for an other. So, there has to be a lot of detachment.

 

[Hemma]

Two things I'd like to say. The one I've heard by an almost 70 year old Carmelite and Bishop. He said, obedience is the most difficult vow because you never get used to it. When you are young, chastity is a big challenge, but then you get older and things become more quiet. Poverty is a challenge in the beginning, but later on you discover how freeing it can be and you get used to that too. But obedience is the same challenge with 70 as it is with 20. There are developments and it's not the same of course, but it remains always difficult. It's against our nature with 20 as well as with 70.

 

The other thing is from my own experience after 8 months of postulancy (when I had to get along in the world again). In my community we had to ask for many things - not for a drink of water, but still for everything that was of any little significance. I got so much used to that habit of asking for permission ("Is it all right if I ... ?")! It was really difficult for me later in the world to become conscious of that and to find back to a normal self-dependance. Sometimes I even fell into the other ditch and didn't ask where I should have asked - because I had lost my feeling for it. Unfortunately my SD had no understanding for my struggling because somehow he never took that 8 months seriously.

But obedience changes our personality more than chastity and poverty ever could do. Obedience makes our lives unified with Christ who was obedient to the father in His incarnation, and by obedience we take part in His sacrifice. It is obedience that replaces and fulfills the offering (Hebrews 10,9). I think I incorporated the habit so much because it is so central - I felt as if I was giving up an essential aspect of my religious life, and it was hard to convert it into another form.

[chrysostom]

Bump

 

And Catherine Therese, I'd love to read the comments you were going to share on this topic.  :)

[das8949]

I was in the Sisters of Notre Dame in Toledo, Oh. Obedience began the first day we arrived. We turned our will over to those in charge of us as well as Jesus. There was not a second that was not accounted for  and a routine that developed from the beginning. I remember that bells rang at odd times like 10 after the hour so that even the clock fostered obedience. We were given everything we used at all times. With our toothpaste, we had to return it to of PD and she would slice it open with a razor blade and hand it back to us to use all the contents. Our eyes were guarded, we went in a procession everywhere we went by our assigned number - i was 39 and had that number stitched on everything from handkerchiefs to socks. We did not speak unless spoken to, we used a nod instead of responding. our prayer life was also taught in such a way that we began almost in infancy - we learned to meditate first with a paperclip, then a word, then a rock and then very importantly we were given a sheet of paper and told to indicate where God was in our life. Most chose the middle and we were instructed that we give all to God therefore,  we would sign our name at the very bottom rt hand corner of the page. It all made sense and I became at peace. My mind was not cluttered nor was my life and my "belongings". Hope this helps some.

 

 

[veritasluxmea]

^ Was that recently or a while ago? I'm somewhat familiar with the Toledo order and I'm not sure if they follow that way of life anymore. 

[das8949]

^ Was that recently or a while ago? I'm somewhat familiar with the Toledo order and I'm not sure if they follow that way of life anymore. 

1968 and unfortunately they don't!  They get very few vocations in the last atleast 10 years. Do you know Sists Barbra and Keneth Ostheimer?

[veritasluxmea]

1968 and unfortunately they don't!  They get very few vocations in the last atleast 10 years. Do you know Sists Barbra and Keneth Ostheimer?

Sorry, I'm not that familiar with them- I lived in the area for a while and saw them every now and then in the newspaper, and someone called Sister Pat was the principal of my sister's school and she had lunch with my parents, but I never met her in person. 

 

My dad is favorable towards them and we talked about me discerning with them, but the Lord wasn't calling me there. They did have a new postulant enter last summer I believe. I think they accept older vocations.