Are Boxing And Mma (and American Football) Immoral?

[The Hierophant]

I briefly dabbled in Western and Thai boxing.  I enjoyed Western boxing more than almost everything I have done in my life, but it seems to me that it is immoral.  It incites love of violence and incurs grave harm.  There is a reason professional boxers tend toward egotism and cruelty.  I suspect the same is true of MMA and, yes, even much cherished American football.  While football may not intend harm qua football, it seems to me that to be successful in it, players have to be aggressive enough to want to hurt, and I can think of little that could show more callous regard for life than diving head first into a quickly moving body and risking CBTI to stop a goal.

 

I am reminded of the words of Tertullian:  "Your public games, too, we renounce, as heartily as we do their origins; we know these or gins lie in superstition. We have nothing to do in speech, sight, or hearing, which the madness of the circus, the shamelessness of the theater, the savagery of the arena, the vanity of the gymnasium. Why should we offend you, if we assume the existence of other pleasures? If we do not wish to know the delight, it is our loss, in any case, not yours. But we reject what pleases you; what pleases us gives you no delight."

 

Discuss.

[Credo in Deum]

I do not see boxing, MMA, American Football, or any other high contact sport as being immoral in itself.  Most of these sports are in controlled environments and have certain safety standards set in place to help regulate the activity that goes on. Also if the event promotes an environment which fosters an appreciation for the athletic aspect of the sport then I think this is also a good thing.  With that said, there are some places which I believe do not foster this type of environment.  They make a show of it by having the competitors get into grudge matches before the event and trash talk each other.   While I do understand that most of the time this is "part of the show", I still feel it is immoral since the message they send to viewers (especially the younger ones) is that we should beat each other to a pulp to settle grudge matches.  This message is against the spirit of charity and is, IMO, stupid.

 

I think someone who participates in these sports should also look at their own motives for doing them.  Are you doing it because you like the athletic competition or are you doing them so you can legally hurt people and take your anger out on others?  A persons motives can render a certain sport immoral for that person.   Same if you are a spectator. 

 

 

I also wouldn't compare the events and gymnasiums in Tertullian’s time with the professional sporting events we have nowadays.  

 

[CatherineM]

My Dad taught me to box when I was 6. I've always lived the sport. Maybe it's an Irish thing, but MMA seems a bit like human cockfighting to me.

[blazeingstar]

10 years ago I would not have said that American football would be immoral.  However, knowing now what we do about the affects of TBI (traumatic Brain Injury) I would say that it is incredibly immoral.

 

I think that something being immoral and moral doesn't simply come from if the body is injured with a high contact sport, rather, if that injury has long-term affects.  There is nothing athletic about the way football is played today, and helmets are actually adding to the problems of brain and neck injuries.

[The Hierophant]

10 years ago I would not have said that American football would be immoral.  However, knowing now what we do about the affects of TBI (traumatic Brain Injury) I would say that it is incredibly immoral.

 

I think that something being immoral and moral doesn't simply come from if the body is injured with a high contact sport, rather, if that injury has long-term affects.  There is nothing athletic about the way football is played today, and helmets are actually adding to the problems of brain and neck injuries.

 

Yes, that's what I mean by injury in football. It's the same thing as "punch drunk" syndrome, just a different way of getting it.

[Nihil Obstat]

My Dad taught me to box when I was 6. I've always lived the sport. Maybe it's an Irish thing, but MMA seems a bit like human cockfighting to me.

Would you say that there is a substantial difference with regards to the moral objects in boxing versus mixed martial arts? Or for further comparison, kickboxing, Muay Thai? Wwe style "pro wrestling"?

[CatherineM]

Would you say that there is a substantial difference with regards to the moral objects in boxing versus mixed martial arts? Or for further comparison, kickboxing, Muay Thai? Wwe style "pro wrestling"?

Boxing, at least the way I was taught was about scoring more points than your opponent. In amateur boxing it still is. For pros, who go much longer, it's about wearing your opponent down so that you can make him not be able to continue. In MMA it seems to be about getting your opponent into submission. It seems like a different mindset. Some would say it is the same thing, but I think there is a subtle difference that makes a big difference.

Some of my opinion is clouded by being around boxers in college and watching their training, and being around kids now who want to make MMA a career. Their training and goals seem so different today. Shockingly so to this old lady.

[Nihil Obstat]

Boxing, at least the way I was taught was about scoring more points than your opponent. In amateur boxing it still is. For pros, who go much longer, it's about wearing your opponent down so that you can make him not be able to continue. In MMA it seems to be about getting your opponent into submission. It seems like a different mindset. Some would say it is the same thing, but I think there is a subtle difference that makes a big difference.

Some of my opinion is clouded by being around boxers in college and watching their training, and being around kids now who want to make MMA a career. Their training and goals seem so different today. Shockingly so to this old lady.

I know they track points in MMA, but obviously a good submission can be an instant win. For that matter, a knockout in boxing is also an instant win.

I am not sure there is a true moral distinction to be drawn between boxing and MMA, and other mainstream combatives. There may be subjective differences in the people themselves, and my intuition tells me that this may make a difference especially in amateur levels, but I also think that is less relevant at professional levels and in terms of a spectator sport.

My real instinct here is that if MMA is immoral, boxing is at least on shaky ground, and that if boxing is moral, then MMA is at least more likely to be moral as well.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Nihil Obstat

[PhuturePriest]

My thoughts on boxing are that it is immoral. People destroy their bodies in it, and I can't honestly say you can be a Catholic in good standing whilst being a professional boxer. In a sport where punching people in the head and causing concussions is a regular occurrence, obviously it cannot be condoned.

 

Our bodies are gifts from God, and we are supposed to take care of them, not destroy them for money and sport.

[blazeingstar]

Yes, that's what I mean by injury in football. It's the same thing as "punch drunk" syndrome, just a different way of getting it.

 

However, I do think it was a moral, even healthy behavior, before we knew what it did to the brain long term.  There are probably some men who would benefit from it more than another sport.  However, the good gained cannot be negated by the damage done.

 

Now that we are wiser, we should look at this the way a logical person would look at roman gladiators who fought tigers.  It's just not ok.

[Norseman82]

There was a thread about the same thing a few months back: 

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/134147-mma-ufc-boxing-are-combat-sports-immoral/

 

I will just "cut and paste" what I replied there. 

 

At least in Chicago, the CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) was a big supporter of the Golden Gloves tournament. Until recently, the Chicago Golden Gloves bouts were held in the gym of a Catholic parish (St. Andrew), and the gym was built specifically for the purpose of having boxing and was encouraged by Bishop Sheil. 

 

http://blog.chicagohistory.org/index.php/2009/05/chicago-boxing/

Edited August 6, 2014 by Norseman82

[blazeingstar]

There was a thread about the same thing a few months back: 

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/134147-mma-ufc-boxing-are-combat-sports-immoral/

 

I will just "cut and paste" what I replied there. 

 

At least in Chicago, the CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) was a big supporter of the Golden Gloves tournament. Until recently, the Chicago Golden Gloves bouts were held in the gym of a Catholic parish (St. Andrew), and the gym was built specifically for the purpose of having boxing and was encouraged by Bishop Sheil. 

 

http://blog.chicagohistory.org/index.php/2009/05/chicago-boxing/

 

Which is great, but we've learned more about the ill affects of hitting the head.  Boxing has to be done carefully done to avoid this action, and given the nature of those it attracts is often impossible.

 

Again, just because something helped many people succeed dosn't mean that it's right.  And given the nature of TBI, it's very likely that those who went through the program became offenders or addicts.

[Catherine Therese]

I have absolutely no balanced or reasoned justification for this claim, but nevertheless I present my stubborn opinion:

 

a) American Football on convent grounds (grin) or in any other easy-going social setting is just about the most fun I've ever had in my life :)

b) American Football as in the major competition that culminates in the Superbowl can be boiled down to the equation thuggery + stupidity = mega$$ for the ones who saw y'all coming

c) Amateur boxing is in most cases a wonderful sport (and kinda fun too)

d) Professional boxing USED to be a sport but has descended into street fighting

e) MMA is thuggery, pure and simple.

 

The end.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Catherine Therese

[CatherineM]

I have absolutely no balanced or reasoned justification for this claim, but nevertheless I present my stubborn opinion:

a) American Football on convent grounds (grin) or in any other easy-going social setting is just about the most fun I've ever had in my life :)
b) American Football as in the major competition that culminates in the Superbowl can be boiled down to the equation thuggery + stupidity = mega$$ for the ones who saw y'all coming
c) Amateur boxing is in most cases a wonderful sport (and kinda fun too)
d) Professional boxing USED to be a sport but has descended into street fighting
e) MMA is thuggery, pure and simple.

The end.

Perfectly said. I would add that amateur wrestling is outstanding and professional wrestling is red neck soap opera.

[Nihil Obstat]

I do feel that if we are going to claim that mma is violent thuggery while boxing is outstanding and noble, we are at least going to have to justify it with something more substantive than that some mma wannabes are kind of unsavory looking.

[Credo in Deum]

None of the counter points have shown why boxing, MMA, or American Football are to be considered immoral.   All anyone has provided us with are examples of when an environment has made the playing of such sports immoral. 

 

 

 

 Is Boxing a Sin?

Q: I am a 16-year-old guy and generally a spiritual person. I read the Bible and try to follow what it teaches. But sometimes its teachings and some of my own philosophies seem contradictory.

I hold a black belt in karate and am passionate about studying the martial arts, which I often consider to be one of God's answers to my prayers.

The principles that I learn from martial arts are ones that I use in my everyday life. I have recently become interested in boxing and like the training it involves.

Is competing in a boxing or karate competition wrong? Am I sinning by training my body and mind to defeat my opponents? By risking injury to myself?

When I look out at the world, I don't always like what I see. That's what motivates me to become better and better. I don't want to harm the world or anyone in it. I would like to improve the world.

 

A: There is no sin in training for boxing as long as you use those skills only in supervised, amateur competitions or self-defense. Because of the number of brain injuries and deaths that have occurred in professional boxing, some moral theologians question the morality of boxing at that level.

 

Training for supervised karate competitions is also fine. The skills learned in karate and boxing can be used outside the ring in cases of genuine self-defense or defending an innocent party.

 

More important, your karate and boxing training are teaching you discipline. You will need that if you want to improve the world whose shortcomings are quite obvious to you. The discipline you learn from sports will help you order your life properly and can be very valuable if you engage in some community service, some effort to go beyond self-improvement as a way of improving our world.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Jun2003/Wiseman.asp#top

 

The above was taken from a section titled: "Ask a Franciscan" where questions are answered by Father Pat McCloskey, O.F.M.

 

Now, I'm sorry but if a Franciscan will say boxing isn't immoral then I doubt we could claim it to be immoral.  Sounds like Fr. believes these sports are not immoral when done in the right environment and under the right conditions.  Logic would suggest that this can then be applied to other sports like MMA and American Football. 

 

 

 

 

[CatherineM]

Never said they were immoral. There are lots of things that aren't immoral that aren't really worth my time. I'm an Okie. Talking against football is a capital offense there.

[Nihil Obstat]

Never said they were immoral. There are lots of things that aren't immoral that aren't really worth my time. I'm an Okie. Talking against football is a capital offense there.

Well you called MMA "human cockfighting". If that is an accurate descriptor, I would have a hard time characterizing it as anything but immoral.

[Amppax]

Some of the most devout Catholics I know are MMA fighters. Anecdotal evidence, I know... meh. 

 

[CatherineM]

Well you called MMA "human cockfighting". If that is an accurate descriptor, I would have a hard time characterizing it as anything but immoral.

That one is definitely problematic for me. There is something about continuing to hit someone who is on the ground that freaks me out.