Hypo: You Are Gay

[Aloysius]

I don't get it.  first off this whole scenario is basically X-Men The Last Stand for homosexuality instead of mutants (but they wrote that whole movie making mutants a metaphor for homosexuality anyway), so there really shouldn't be any problem with people taking the time to discuss such a scenario... it's a total sci-fi scenario as it is extremely doubtful any such pill could ever exist, but it's still an interesting thought to consider as it brings up a larger issue of whether we should bio-engineer our moral systems of sexuality if that ever becomes possible.  I don't think that we should.

 

anyway I'm moving this to debate table.  because it's clearly a debate.

[Maggyie]

I don't get it. first off this whole scenario is basically X-Men The Last Stand for homosexuality instead of mutants (but they wrote that whole movie making mutants a metaphor for homosexuality anyway), so there really shouldn't be any problem with people taking the time to discuss such a scenario...

Perhaps there's a list of gay-related topics approved for phorum discussion and this was not selected for the list.

What if there were other injections that could be taken to control other disordered urges. Like abusing alcohol. In that case the situation has taken the opposite track of homosexuality where it's been medicalized and a lot of emphasis is put on the biological aspect vs the moral part. I mean while we still consider it sinful to get drunk we all recognize the biological predisposition, the brain's reaction to addiction, the reduced culpability of the person with alcoholism.

Wouldn't their choice to take the shot simply be them exercising their morality? Isn't it just another strategy, like praying the rosary daily or changing your lifestyle to avoid temptation? I mean yes you could say the shot is an easy way out. But there's no rule that a Christian must take the hard way out in avoiding sin.

While this is a different situation than homosexuality, it has similarities. After all, being an alcoholic or being gay themselves aren't sinful, just the indulgence of that particular desire is.

[veritasluxmea]

In X-Men TLS I never got what the issue was. Why not just let the pill be available for people who want it? (And they totally hyped up the anti-mutantism. I bet in real life the amount of people who were that discriminatory would be small. There would probably be some prejudices but I bet the majority of people would be fine with them and others would love/support/hero-worship mutants.) 

 

Storm and a few others argued that there is nothing wrong with mutation and therefore the idea of a pill being a "fix" is wrong and everyone should just accept themselves as they are, but there are things like cosmetic surgery which change people who don't need a fix either, and there's nothing morally wrong with that, except maybe running the risk of vanity. What about the opposite- if there was a shot/pill that gave you mutant powers, would you take it? Or if one made you gay and you were straight, would you take it? 

 

So I think the issue comes down to two things: Homosexual attractions are disordered and therefore the shots are a treatment (although treatments should never be forced on anyone) OR Homosexual attractions are neutral and therefore everyone should just accept each other as they are and the shots are like cosmetic surgery. 

 

Although.... I'm not certain what I would do in the hypo. I can't say I would take a shot that would make me straight. I would work on other issues in my life with therapy and counseling, like I do now, and probably discuss that as well, but I'm not sure I would go for that kind of treatment. I might be comfortable with who I am and not want to change. But is that necessarily a good thing? Maybe I would see it as treatment and go for it. I don't know.

[Gabriela]

The only change you will experience as a direct result of the shot is that the gender to which you feel a sexual attraction will be reversed.

 

Your use of the word "reversed" implies that there are only two, opposite genders, rather than a wonderful colorful rainbow of genders.

 

:|

[PhuturePriest]

Your use of the word "reversed" implies that there are only two, opposite genders, rather than a wonderful colorful rainbow of genders.

 

:|

 

[Gabriela]

 

I looked for a picture, too, but I didn't find anything nearly as appropriate as this. You should win a medal.

 

Question: Are you the Phatmasser Formerly Known as FuturePriest? I was gone for a while...

[Gabriela]

Nevermind. You must be. Apparently, your name is Miles and we're Phatmass Phriends!

 

How's it goin', Miles?! :wave:

Edited September 7, 2014 by curiousing

[PhuturePriest]

I looked for a picture, too, but I didn't find anything nearly as inappropriate as this. You should win a medal.

 

Question: Are you the Phatmasser Formerly Known as FuturePriest? I was gone for a while...

 

I fixed your first line there.

 

I am a Phatmasser who goes by many names. Quite literally. These range from such things as FetusPriest and even Fickle Yapping Fetus. I think I may be the only Phatmasser whose username was actually changed 4 times in a week, not only with the approval of the webmaster, but the changes were administered and thought of by the webmaster himself. I had nothing to do with it.

 

However, to answer your question, yes, that was my name but several weeks ago.

[PhuturePriest]

Nevermind. You must be. Apparently, your name is Miles and we're Phatmass Phriends!

 

How's it goin', Miles?! :wave:

 

Things are well. Wet and amnioticy as ever here in my womb room. How are you?

[Lilllabettt]

The two are incommensurable. Deafness is a lack of a natural sense. Homosexuality is not a lack. 

 

 

Well, actually it is "a lack." Any condition that frustrates the fundamental instinctual drive of organic life qualifies as "a lack."    

 

Homosexuality precludes an individual from producing biological offspring with their chosen sexual partner. Presumably many people would appreciate having the opportunity to have that experience. Presumably many parents would want that opportunity to be open to their children. 

 

I cannot have biological children. That is a lack. If there were a pill to restore that option to me, I would take it. Probably I would still choose not to have biological children. But not having the choice is a lack. Gay people do not have that choice. (Most) straight people do. 

[Gabriela]

Things are well. Wet and amnioticy as ever here in my womb room. How are you?

 

Wow... Gross.

 

I'm ok. Swamped as ever during the semester. I work till I get fried... then I phatmass.  :like2:

 

(EDIT: You should post another video of yourself singing so we can all re-associate your adorable face with your new name.)

Edited September 7, 2014 by curiousing

[God the Father]

Hello there, Golf Tango Foxtrot. Be advised that I will always always always moderate threads in accordance to the rules of Phatmass and the Winchester line unless dUSt tells me otherwise.

 

"Also, if you define a suggestion that someone who demonstrates rhetorical "room for improvement" push their mental abilities by preparing for and scoring highly on a standardized reasoning test as a "personal attack," I would respond by recommending you evaluate your own cerebral performance and determine a few methods by which you might achieve a level intelligence that does not, frankly, embarrass you."

 

I scored a 790 on the reading section of the GRE. I'd appreciate you not "recommending" that I "evaluate" my "cerebral performance" when you know nothing about me or my cognitive ability.  I read what you wrote. I read every post on PM, actually. I have nothing against the discussion. I moderated the thread because you attacked the mental capacities of several of your sister posters. Your tone, sir, implied contempt.

 

Frankly, the only reason I have not warned you for attacking a Mediator of Meh is because I fear that doing so would only result in further warnings, and I'd prefer to give you a chance to reevaluate your actions on this phorum. 

 

One more thing -- I befoul where I please. Meh.

 

Edited by Moderator: Personal Attack, crossing the Winchester Line. 7 day suspension.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Deus te Amat

[Deus te Amat]

Edited by Moderator: Personal Attack, crossing the Winchester Line. 7 day suspension.

 

Meh.

[Credo in Deum]

Somebody is going to create a drug that makes people bisexual, and then the liberals are going to make sure that all children are made into bisexuals, so that no prejudice prevails. There are no longer gender distinctions and we all become identical as human beings.

This is my view: we're all fallen humans capable of practicing a disordered love, since that's what sin is. Only with and by God's grace do we direct love in an ordered way towards ourselves and our neighbor. This ordered way is God's will, and if we're not following it then we can never truly say we love ourselves or our neighbor.

[Not The Philosopher]

I see that my predictions have been proven correct...

[Lil Red]

 

 

Please refrain in the future from "moderating" in my threads; I will take care of that without resorting to censorship of reasonable expressions that are not obscene. If you insist on continuing to befoul my discussion with your presence, please do so by describing your reaction to the scenario posited in the original post.Thxx!

 

:rotfl2:  :rotfl2:  :rotfl2:  :rotfl2:  :rotfl2:  :rotfl2: 
 

[Credo in Deum]

I see that my predictions have been proven correct...

[Aloysius]

from where I'm sitting this thread was back on topic when GTF insisted on de-railing it again lol.  we gave you a wide berth for your first diatribe against the modding, but you gotsta take that stuff to PMs at that point if you can't get over it, but the thread was totally back on track.

 

anyway, back to the subject... so the comparison has been made to alcoholism or other such issues.  I'm not sure what my answer to that would be.  it seems a much deeper thing between taking away one's predisposition towards alcoholism and shifting their sexual attractions.  as much as the hypothetical insists it would not affect any other aspect of the person, I cannot imagine any way in which that could be true knowing what we do about people's psychological makeups.  sexuality is much more deeply interwoven on a much deeper level, I don't think it's very comparable to alcoholism in this regard... but in the hypothetical we're claiming that only the attractions would change... as I said before, that aspect makes this very unrealistic science fiction IMO, but if there was such a thing... well, it still bothers me because it's not just like alcoholism, even if you totally isolated the attraction part.  how far can we go to bio-engineer sexual morality would remain my question.  if you could take a pill to make you more monogamous, should you?  Personally I think that's messing with human nature far too much... but like I said before, for those who view homosexuality as some kind of psychological disorder, medicalizing it might make sense to them.  but I very much disagree, and I think such people don't truly understand the nature of homosexuality IMHO.

[Not The Philosopher]

I'm not overly fond of comparisons with alcoholism, as it is a particular way that addictive personality traits can manifest themselves. There is a difference between having a desire to drink a glass of wine and feeling a compulsion to do so. Similarly, there is a difference between experiencing same-sex desires and feeling a compulsion to act on them (although, of course, the two things can overlap in an individual). What is disordered about same-sex desire is that the act it is directed towards cannot fulfill the telos of sexuality.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Not The Philosopher

[Basilisa Marie]

The biggest problem I see with comparing homosexuality with alcoholism comes down to the issue of choice/agency and stigma. While you can have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, most people become alcoholics when they make a series of bad decisions. On the other hand, you don't choose who you're sexually attracted to, and choosing to act on your sexual attractions doesn't make you more gay. Otherwise we'd have to say that a priest isn't really a heterosexual man because he doesn't act on his sexual urges. Plus with alcoholism, we're talking about a chemical dependence in order to cope with something, where every non-heterosexual person I've known well is looking for love, intimacy, and deep friendship with another human being. Yes, they way they go about finding and expressing that connection is intrinsically disordered.  The analogy really only goes so far. 

 

And then there's the idea of just having the medicine available for people who want it - which can be problematic too. Look at how the increased availability of contraception and abortion has changed the way people respond to pregnancy. Anyone who doesn't choose the pill and/or abortion gets absolutely no sympathy from these people, because they could have made the choice to get rid of it and because they didn't they have to deal with it on their own.  I could see the same thing happening with a pill to "cure" homosexuality - people who choose not to take the pill for whatever reason would suddenly lose much of what little support they have for trying to live a chaste and holy life. Or if someone didn't take the pill, we'd assume that they were a deviant and didn't want to live a holy life.