PhuturePriest Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 Well, you have earned it. Granted, I didn't give you much to respond to. I'll rectify that now. I dislike Rorate because of their generally critical attitude towards the hierarchy, especially towards our current Holy Father, and because I think that they are deliberately misleading with many of their articles. There is much to be critical of with the current hierarchy.
Amppax Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 There is much to be critical of with the current hierarchy. There's always something to criticize.
PhuturePriest Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) There's always something to criticize. I would say blatant apostasy and teaching it as if it were Catholic teaching is a bigger one than others. Edited September 21, 2014 by FuturePacker
Basilisa Marie Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) I would say blatant apostasy and teaching it as if it were Catholic teaching is a bigger one than others. Whut. Did you just accuse the pope of apostasy? That doesn't sound like you. I don't know what's going on here. Oh, you're talking about Kasper's ideas re: marriage and divorce? Yes? Okay, great. Now quit throwing around words like apostasy when they don't apply. Or maybe you aren't talking about that? Edited September 21, 2014 by Basilisa Marie
veritasluxmea Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 Pretty sure the apostasy here is about Cardinal Kasper, which is a reasonable criticism although I wouldn't use that word. I'm just glad he's not the one calling all the shots at this meeting, no? Good thing we have cardinals like Burke attending.
PhuturePriest Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 Whut. Did you just accuse the pope of apostasy? That doesn't sound like you. I don't know what's going on here. Oh, you're talking about Kasper's ideas re: marriage and divorce? Yes? Okay, great. Now quit throwing around words like apostasy when they don't apply. Or maybe you aren't talking about that? No, I was referring to apostasy in general amongst much of the clergy, not Kasper or Pope Francis.
Cherie Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 Can someone give me the low-down on Cardinal Kasper? Like I said, I've been out of the loop of Church politics, probably since I left the convent 6 years ago. (Though I do like Whispers in the Loggia; that's actually on my blog roll. I just haven't been reading it much lately.)
PhuturePriest Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 Can someone give me the low-down on Cardinal Kasper? Like I said, I've been out of the loop of Church politics, probably since I left the convent 6 years ago. (Though I do like Whispers in the Loggia; that's actually on my blog roll. I just haven't been reading it much lately.) Cardinal Kasper wants to lift the restrictions on communion and allow the divorced and remarried to receive it, which is against Church teaching concerning mortal sin and reception of the Eucharist.
Cherie Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 Ah, that was my question that my husband and I were discussing last night. Divorced and remarried Catholics--barred from Communion because mortal sin is presumed, or for another reason that stands alone?
Basilisa Marie Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 No, I was referring to apostasy in general amongst much of the clergy, not Kasper or Pope Francis. Yeah, you still shouldn't be throwing that word around.
Nihil Obstat Posted September 21, 2014 Author Posted September 21, 2014 Ah, that was my question that my husband and I were discussing last night. Divorced and remarried Catholics--barred from Communion because mortal sin is presumed, or for another reason that stands alone? Because of Canon 915 and the very public nature of attempted remarriage.
Basilisa Marie Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 Because of Canon 915 and the very public nature of attempted remarriage. Yeah, divorce and civil remarriage counts as public adultery. Specifically, the civil remarriage to another person without first obtaining an annulment is sinful. (divorce isn't the sin) And having marital relations with someone who isn't your spouse is also a mortal sin, so there's that. Kasper wants to be able to admit to communion divorced and remarried couples who demonstrate some kind of significant return to living the Christian life. He doesn't ever specify what this is, but he has said that couples would decide to live as brother and sister while the annulment is processed demonstrate heroic virtue and are to be commended....but he has also said that you can't expect the average Christian to demonstrate that level of virtue, so we need to sort of meet them halfway. While his pastoral concern is commendable, it opens the door to a slippery slope for what we allow. It doesn't sound like he's talking about a rare exception for the couple who doesn't have enough proof for an annulment but knows in their heart of hearts that the first marriage wasn't valid and after much discernment and spiritual direction decides to follow what their consciences tell them and return to communion because the annulment process isn't completely perfect. He's talking about giving people a way out of a very difficult situation. Which, again, is a commendable intention, but you can't do it as vaguely as he's doing, and you can't do it at the expense of things that we know to be true.
truthfinder Posted September 22, 2014 Posted September 22, 2014 Yeah, divorce and civil remarriage counts as public adultery. Specifically, the civil remarriage to another person without first obtaining an annulment is sinful. (divorce isn't the sin) And having marital relations with someone who isn't your spouse is also a mortal sin, so there's that.. Just to really stir things up, divorce can be a sin. If it is done for non-serious reasons, or other than those allowed under canon law, it could be sinful. Please don't think I'm supporting staying in abusive marriages though.
Basilisa Marie Posted September 22, 2014 Posted September 22, 2014 Just to really stir things up, divorce can be a sin. If it is done for non-serious reasons, or other than those allowed under canon law, it could be sinful. Please don't think I'm supporting staying in abusive marriages though. Sure, but you need to be divorced before you can get an annulment, so it wouldn't make sense that the Church would ask people to sin before it can figure out the status of their marriage. That's the sort of thing I was talking about there. Though your point is a good one. :)
Cherie Posted September 22, 2014 Posted September 22, 2014 Because of Canon 915 and the very public nature of attempted remarriage. Ah, thank you. I knew it was more involved than just presumed mortal sin, but I couldn't remember what that was.
Nihil Obstat Posted September 22, 2014 Author Posted September 22, 2014 Ah, thank you. I knew it was more involved than just presumed mortal sin, but I couldn't remember what that was. Mortal sin in and of itself obviously does disqualify one from receiving, but that is governed by Canon 916 and the onus is on the individual to refrain. Canon 915 concerns particular sins which have a public aspect, and the onus is on the ministers of Holy Communion to deny those people who are disqualified by that canon.
PhuturePriest Posted September 22, 2014 Posted September 22, 2014 Yeah, you still shouldn't be throwing that word around. I shall diffuse the tension in the ancient and sacred Phatmass way of posting a meme.
Amppax Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) CNS just posted an article about Cardinal Burke, commenting on the synod. I had heard that Francis was requesting that they all stop commenting on it in the lead up to the council? Maybe he already knows he's on his way out, or not. Anyway, here's the article http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/cardinal-burke-media-hijacking-synod-on-the-family-79760/ The article quotes him talking about it as if he won't be there. Which will be the case, if he is removed from the curia, I've been told. Edited September 23, 2014 by Amppax
Nihil Obstat Posted September 23, 2014 Author Posted September 23, 2014 CNS just posted an article about Cardinal Burke, commenting on the synod. I had heard that Francis was requesting that they all stop commenting on it in the lead up to the council? Maybe he already knows he's on his way out, or not. Anyway, here's the article http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/cardinal-burke-media-hijacking-synod-on-the-family-79760/ The article quotes him talking about it as if he won't be there. Which will be the case, if he is removed from the curia, I've been told. In my opinion, statements such as Burke's most be made regardless of anyone's feelings on the matter. Statements like Kasper's must be corrected, and with the Synod looming it is important now more than ever.
Nihil Obstat Posted September 24, 2014 Author Posted September 24, 2014 And yes, if he loses his place in the Signatura before the Synod opens, then in theory he loses his seat at the Synod.
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