Something That Struck Me Today When I Was

[Iacobus]

[quote]The Church has not "taught" that the war in Iraq is unjust. There is no such Church teaching. The Pope has not infallibly proclaimed that the war in Iraq is unjust. The Pope is not "the Church". In fact the USCCB is not "the Church" either. Both the Pope and the USCCB combined aren't "The Church". On the war in Iraq, the Church has taught nothing.[/quote]

No the magisterium hasn't. But they have taught just war doctrines. And have SAID the war in Iraq, before and during, was immoral and unjust. The Pope has said the war was immoral. He didn't infallible proclaim it. But the Pope has also not infallible proclaimed that abortion is wrong either. All he has proclaimed is the IC and Mary is Queen of heaven. But abortion is still very wrong without needing an infallible declared doctrine.

The Church doesn't have a teaching on every abortion. They have one teaching to cover all abortions and that is that abortion is wrong and evil.

The Church doesn't have a teaching on every war. They have one teaching of just war to cover all wars.

So in saying that the Church doesn't have an infallible teaching on Iraq I am not bound to anything is simalr to saying the Church doesn't have an infallibe teaching on abortion, therefore I am not bound to respect it.

[quote]War in general has to do with faith and morals. Yes. And so there are infallible teachings for war in general. But one cannot objectivly say that the war in Iraq is unjust. This cannot be proclaimed infallibly. You can infallibly say that lustful sex within marriage is a sin. But can you infallibly proclaim a certain couple to have sinned? No!

The Pope has his opinion on things. And we can either go with him or not. Yes, he is a very very smart person. And I would much rather have him think for me too! But his "thoughts" are not infallible. He potentially could (even the smalles chance) be wrong. We are not bound to think as the Pope thinks. We are bound to the Church teachings, not the Popes personal teachings.[/quote]

There are two infallible doctrines. Both of which deal with Mary. No on war or sex or anything else. See my above points.

We don't need an infallible doctrine on this one case. We need the Churchs views on it, which though they are not infallible we are, as Catholics, obliged to obey and adhere to. If the Chruch says Iraq was unjust, than we are required to obey that decsions. It is not 100% infallible but is needed to be treated as such until an other pope retracts it or changes it.

To back that up I call upon [i]Lumen Gentium[/i] Paragraph 25.

[quote]This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.[/quote]

As to if it is a sin or not to vote for Bush. If he readly engaged in and started an unjust war, than it is.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Jun 10 2004, 03:16 PM'] I don't know if any one has mentioned this, but in response to:



The Church has not "taught" that the war in Iraq is unjust.  There is no such Church teaching.  The Pope has not infallibly proclaimed that the war in Iraq is unjust.  The Pope is not "the Church".  In fact the USCCB is not "the Church" either.  Both the Pope and the USCCB combined aren't "The Church".  On the war in Iraq, the Church has taught nothing.

War in general has to do with faith and morals.  Yes.  And so there are infallible teachings for war in general.  But one cannot objectivly say that the war in Iraq is unjust.  This cannot be proclaimed infallibly.  You can infallibly say that lustful sex within marriage is a sin.  But can you infallibly proclaim a certain couple to have sinned? No!

The Pope has his opinion on things.  And we can either go with him or not.  Yes, he is a very very smart person.  And I would much rather have him think for me too!  But his "thoughts" are not infallible. He potentially could (even the smalles chance) be wrong.  We are not bound to think as the Pope thinks.  We are bound to the Church teachings, not the Popes personal teachings.

I just wanted to clear that up.

It isn't a sin to vote for Bush based on his involvment in a war (one which may or may not be unjust - who knows).  It is a sin to vote for someone who publically supports abortion.  The public suport of a war is different.  War is not objectivly sinful.  Abortion is.

A Catholic is not a cafeteria Catholic who votes for Bush and believes the war to be just.  There is not Teaching on the war in Iraq.

Just wanted to clarify that point.

God bless you all. [/quote]

true...

[phatcatholic]

this has proved to be an excellent exchange on just wary doctrine and catholic social issues (in my humble opinion)

as such, i find it fitting to immortalize it in some way. so, i'm providing a link to it in the reference section.

thanks guys and keep up the good work,
phatcatholic

[Jake Huether]

[quote]No the magisterium hasn't. But they have taught just war doctrines. And have SAID the war in Iraq, before and during, was immoral and unjust. [/quote]


It doesn't matter if they say the war in Iraq is immoral. That's an opinion. The Church cannot Teach that a specific war is unjust. They can only outline what makes a war unjust. And they have. But one cannot know for sure whether or not the Iraq war is or isn't. Sure, we can error on the safe side and say it is immoral. But that is not a fallible statement.

The magisterium has taught that certain things make a war unjust. And it can assume, with current info, that the war in Iraq is immoral or whatever. But it falls short as an assumption, because unless the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope to declare it unjust from the seat of Rome it is just an assumption (good though it may be).


[quote]The Pope has said the war was immoral. He didn't infallible proclaim it. But the Pope has also not infallible proclaimed that abortion is wrong either. [/quote]

It doesn't need to be proclaimed infallible by the Pope. The universal Magisterium, through it's Teachings has stated that abortion is wrong. It is murder. God proclaimed abortion wrong on Mt. Sini. War has always been subjective. War itself isn't a sin. Abortion by itself is a sin. Abortion = murder. Murder is one of the 10 commandments. It doesn't need to be infallibly proclaimed. But the Pope must proclaim a specific war immoral for it to be considered infallibly immoral.


Again, war itself is not a sin. Murder is, therefore abortion is.

[quote]All he has proclaimed is the IC and Mary is Queen of heaven. But abortion is still very wrong without needing an infallible declared doctrine. [/quote]


It would be good for us all to understand infallibility. Murder is infallibly wrong. Abortion is therefore wrong. War is not. Unjust or immoral war is. But there remains to be seen anyone who can declair a war infallibly immoral without knowing ALL the details.


[quote]
The Church doesn't have a teaching on every abortion. They have one teaching to cover all abortions and that is that abortion is wrong and evil. [/quote]


Exactly! Murder is one of the Ten Commandments. Abortion is murder. EVERY abortion is WRONG. Don't matter how you dice it.

War on the other hand is different.

You can't compare the two. It's like birth control and NFP. Birth control is intrinsically evil. NFP is not. NFP can be used immorally. But the Pope cannot declare one couple's NFP usage immoral without knowing the details.


[quote]The Church doesn't have a teaching on every war. They have one teaching of just war to cover all wars.[/quote]

Exactly! I agree. But where is the Teaching that states that "Thou shalt not commit the Iraq war". There is no specific Church teaching on the Iraq war. We can only speculate as to it's immoralness, depending on the info we have!


[quote]
So in saying that the Church doesn't have an infallible teaching on Iraq I am not bound to anything is simalr to saying the Church doesn't have an infallibe teaching on abortion, therefore I am not bound to respect it.[/quote]

You are talking apples and oranges. There is no evidence that the war in Iraq is undeniably immoral. We only have the Popes opinion, not a declaration. We are bound to be against abortion, because we are bound by the 10 commandments. But we are not bound to a "teaching" on Iraq, because there is none. If one thinks the war in Iraq is immoral and still supports it, then that is wrong. If the Church infallibly declairs the war in Iraq immoral, then it is wrong. But we only have a Church Teaching against immoral war, but no declaration as to which war that is.



[quote]There are two infallible doctrines. Both of which deal with Mary. No on war or sex or anything else. See my above points.[/quote]


We need to learn what infallible means. Abortion is infallibly an immoral act. Immoral war is infallibly wrong. But the Iraq war is not infallibly immoral, so we are not bound to be against it.


[quote]
We don't need an infallible doctrine on this one case. We need the Churchs views on it, which though they are not infallible we are, as Catholics, obliged to obey and adhere to. [/quote]

As Catholics we do not need to adhere to the Popes opionion. The Popes opinion isn't even the "Churches" opinion. The Pope, like Al said, is simply Karol W. with his opinion on the war. The Church has no opinion on the war in Iraq.



[quote]If the Chruch says Iraq was unjust, than we are required to obey that decsions. [/quote]

Fortunatly for us, the Church hasn't said anything. Only the Pope has.


[quote]
It is not 100% infallible but is needed to be treated as such until an other pope retracts it or changes it.[/quote]

This is not the same thing. There is a difference between the Church suggesting us to do something, and the Pope (as Karol W.) suggesting it.

The Church has not publicly told Catholics to reject the war (or has she?). The Church, not the Pope. We need to, and are obliged to, know the difference.



[quote]As to if it is a sin or not to vote for Bush. If he readly engaged in and started an unjust war, than it is.[/quote]

We would have to know 1.) the disposition of Bush's soul (whether he intentionally started an unjust war, or whether he thought it was just) and 2.) whether the war is indeed unjust - which we don't. But with abortion, it is different. Abortion is murder. We cannot support anyone who would support murder.

[voiciblanche]

I don't think it's worthwhile to fight over whether or not voting for Bush would be a sin on the subject of war - voting for him is a sin because of his stances on other things. He's not exactly a stauch pro-lifer.

[Colleen]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 10 2004, 04:54 PM'] I don't think it's worthwhile to fight over whether or not voting for Bush would be a sin on the subject of war - voting for him is a sin because of his stances on other things. He's not exactly a stauch pro-lifer. [/quote]
But to vote for the opposite or to not vote at all would result in even greater evil. We would end up with Kerry's policies, which are some of the most horrible policies on abortion in the whole American politcal scene. I wouldn't rather have a president who is vehemently pro-abortion and supported the war at the beginning in the first place.

[voiciblanche]

Well, yes. However, I'm sure there's a politician in the independent parties that doesn't have any beliefs or campaigns that contradict the Faith. Personally, the idea of voting for whoever is the "least evil" doesn't do it for me.

[littleflower+JMJ]

voting is a matter of "stopping and limiting" evil that can prevail

oh and phatcatholic is right. awesome debating (iacobus, al, qfnol etc.) and awesome thinking...we got great minds here at phatmass.

+JMJ+

[Iacobus]

Did you read what I said about Lumen Gentium? You might have missed it becuase I put it in a quote box but here I will post it again.

[quote]This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. [/quote]

JPII said the war was immoral.
JPII is the Pope.
Lumen Gentium is a teaching of the Church.

If JPII is the Pope and he said that the war is immoral and unjust we need to submit to his descion. This is shown by the Document [i]Lumen Gentium[/i] of the Second Vatican Counil in paragraph 25. We are obliged to adhere to "judgments made by him." If the statements are not [i]ex cathedra[/i] it doesn't matter. The role of the office of the Pontiff requires us to submit to his thinking. He doesn't have to declare Iraq war is immoral [i] ex cathedra[/i] for us to be obliged to ahere to his statements.

And as to the current info we have, it is regradless. We need to know before invading a nation-state that they war is just or not. We cannot invade and hope the findings are in our favor. We have to be 100% sure of it. And when Mr. Powell went to the UN seeking to have Res. 1441's force act for non-complance enacted he played the US's intelegneces best cards. He needed the security conuincil to vote yes without exception and only the best intel could possibly convine them to change a nay to a yay vote.

And as to JPII's statements possible being a assumation, that would not change it. He publicly said that the war in Iraq was immoral. And to the proof of Lumen Gentium.

And lastly, as to the apples and oranges. If an war is inmoral and unjust what does it become but murder?

[Colleen]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 10 2004, 04:59 PM'] Well, yes. However, I'm sure there's a politician in the independent parties that doesn't have any beliefs or campaigns that contradict the Faith. [/quote]
But still, that person (unfortunately) probably doesn't have a great chance of becoming President. In reality, it's going to be Bush or Kerry who will be the next president. Not Nader or anyone else.

[quote]Personally, the idea of voting for whoever is the "least evil" doesn't do it for me.[/quote]
I don't like the idea, either, but sometimes you just have to. For example, in the NY Senate election a few years ago, both candidates were very pro-choice, but it was okay to vote for the less pro-choice one. Sadly, it didn't work out. But perhaps if more people had done so, it wouldn't have happened. I don't know.

[Jake Huether]

[quote]And as to JPII's statements possible being a assumation, that would not change it. He publicly said that the war in Iraq was immoral. And to the proof of Lumen Gentium.[/quote]


Eh, I see your point. But I don't think it is as clear as that. Otherwise the Pope would tell us, as his flock, not to suppor the war.

Although it is his opinion that the war is immoral, and we should acknowledge this opionion, he has not expressed his opinion that Catholics should not support the war.

In fact, is there a public statement from the Pope to the Catholic community that the war is unjust. I think the Press coverage of his private conversation with Bush is all we have ( I may be wrong). In this case, his opinion given to Bush does not apply to us, since infallible or otherwise, his opinion was not expressed to his flock. And in this case, because he is addressing a Protestant, not the Catholic Community, then his opinion should be taken not as the Roman Pontif, but as Karol W.

I just don't think it is as clear as you think - otherwise, at least on Phatmass, you wouldn't have devout Pope / Church / Catholic lovers debating this topic.

[crusader1234]

[quote]Well, yes. However, I'm sure there's a politician in the independent parties that doesn't have any beliefs or campaigns that contradict the Faith. Personally, the idea of voting for whoever is the "least evil" doesn't do it for me.
[/quote]

Amber is too cool for school haha. I think its important to remember that Bush isnt exactly an angel of pro life or any other subject for that batter.

[quote]In fact, is there a public statement from the Pope to the Catholic community that the war is unjust. I think the Press coverage of his private conversation with Bush is all we have ( I may be wrong). In this case, his opinion given to Bush does not apply to us, since infallible or otherwise, his opinion was not expressed to his flock. And in this case, because he is addressing a Protestant, not the Catholic Community, then his opinion should be taken not as the Roman Pontif, but as Karol W.
[/quote]

I totally agree with this. However, just because his message was not adressed to us, does not mean it does not still apply. The letters in the Bible, they arent adressed to us, but they apply to various aspects of life undeniably. And even if these words are the words of 'Karol W', aren't these words still more important than the words of Bush? And as Jake said, just because something isnt ex cathedra, doesnt mean it is something that we can disregard.

[quote]But still, that person (unfortunately) probably doesn't have a great chance of becoming President. In reality, it's going to be Bush or Kerry who will be the next president. Not Nader or anyone else.[/quote]

Well true, and I'm Canadian so this doesn't apply in the same manner - however think about the small guy. The guy from some small town trying to get the Catholic viewpoint into the Presidential office, doesnt he deserve some support?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 10 2004, 05:59 PM'] Well, yes. However, I'm sure there's a politician in the independent parties that doesn't have any beliefs or campaigns that contradict the Faith. Personally, the idea of voting for whoever is the "least evil" doesn't do it for me. [/quote]
It would be wrong for Kerry to get into office for a few reasons. No one else besides Bush really has a chance, so in that way it would be less wrong for Bush to come into office. He has been a supporter of getting rid of partial birth abortions. Kerry would bring them back. That in itself has saved a good number of baby's lives. It would be wrong for us to let this go back to how it was a few years ago...and sad.

By the way, the fact that he supports capital punishment (who don't like him for this reason) isn't necessarily bad. I know very often people think it should be done away with, but in the CCC, it says that capital punishment can be accepted. My opinion on this is that it is used way too often.

Now I'm not so sure that he's not pro-life. One of the things that the Pope has said through example is that you can't change everything overnight. You can't just say that you'll stop all abortions at once. You must do it one step at a time.

Just real quick opinions I have.

I really like what Jake has said!

[crusader1234]

Just out of curiousity, why does everyone here scream ABORTION whenever another issue comes up?

And by the way, if Bush is so pro-life, why hasnt he done something about Abortion in his CURRENT term.

[qfnol31]

Partial birth abortions......

Not that I condone this, but he probably got distracted by wars and stuff too. Then again, Congress must pass the laws, though he should push for them to be passed.

Edited June 11, 2004 by qfnol31

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 10 2004, 01:07 PM'] The world is a better place without Saddam. [/quote]
Do you say this from a democratic stance?

[crusader1234]

The world isn't a better place without Saddam. The world is a better place without his regime however

The fact that they got rid of saddam is secondary to the fact that they started an unjust war.

[voiciblanche]

Note about pro-life -

Pro-life doesn't just mean you don't support abortion. It means stem cell research and cloning and stuff life that, and it also means the death penalty - which Bush supports.

[crusader1234]

I repeat: Amber is too cool for school.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 10 2004, 11:12 PM'] Note about pro-life -

Pro-life doesn't just mean you don't support abortion. It means stem cell research and cloning and stuff life that, and it also means the death penalty - which Bush supports. [/quote]
LoL, which is why I made my comment about the death penalty. It's not always bad.

Where else do you see him falter?