Eastern Orthodox

[Brother Adam]

Not something I've studied much in converting to Catholicism, but I noticed they have valid holy orders, a valid Eucharist, valid confession, and so forth. Yet they are in schism to the Catholic Church? Now I'm confused. Isn't it perfectly acceptable to be an Eastern Orthodox Christian?

[Apotheoun]

The Eastern Orthodox reject the primacy of the Roman Pontiff, who by the will of Christ Himself was made the visible head of the Church. Thus, they are in schism, and although they have valid sacraments, their celebrations are illicit, because they are not done in communion with the Pope. As an Eastern Catholic myself, I wouldn't attend services in an Eastern Orthodox Church because they deny a vital element of the true faith, i.e., the necessity of communion with the Roman Pontiff.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

They also aren't solid on the issue of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception of Mary.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 10 2004, 08:15 PM'] The Eastern Orthodox reject the primacy of the Roman Pontiff, who by the will of Christ Himself was made the visible head of the Church. Thus, they are in schism, and although they have valid sacraments, their celebrations are illicit, because they are not done in communion with the Pope. As an Eastern Catholic myself, I wouldn't attend services in an Eastern Orthodox Church because they deny a vital element of the true faith, i.e., the necessity of communion with the Roman Pontiff. [/quote]
It's not so much as they reject him as they don't think that the current pontiff is actually in the Chair of Peter. Constantine moved the capital to Constantinople, and the Eastern Churches thought that they pontiff moved as well.

At least I believe this to be the case.

Their Divine Liturgies are a good way to get your Sunday obligation if you don't have a nearby Roman Catholic Church. As was discussed earlier, they haven't denied the Church really, or changed the way that the Sacraments are practiced so much. Now, the fact that the Eastern Orthodox don't believe some of the same things about Mary is understandable. Those doctrine were just recently defined. Not even St. Thomas Aquinas believed Mary to have been immaculately conceived. The Eastern Orthodox left well before his time, so it would make sense that they have less dogma in a sense on Mary.

[Apotheoun]

"Their Divine Liturgies are a good way to get your Sunday obligation if you don't have a nearby Roman Catholic Church. As was discussed earlier, they haven't denied the Church really, or changed the way that the Sacraments are practiced so much."


A Catholic is not permitted to fulfill his Sunday obligation at an Eastern Orthodox divine liturgy, except in a case of grave necessity when he cannot avail himself of services at a Catholic Church, and only with the prior permission of his own diocesan Bishop and with the prior approval of the Eastern Orthodox Eparch. To attend a schismatical service on a regular basis is a danger to one's faith, and is not canonically approved by the Apostolic See. Once again, although the Eastern Orthodox have a valid priesthood and valid sacraments, they deny a fundamental dogma of the faith, the primacy of the Pope, and so until they assent to this dogma, they are separated from the Church.

As far as the other comment is concerned, the Patriarch of Constantinople has never claimed to be the Successor of St. Peter, in fact he is thought of as the successor of St. Andrew. The Eastern Orthodox Churches accept the idea that the Bishop of Rome has the Petrine succession, what they do not accept is the dogma of the primacy of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff. Their rejection of this dogma is why they are presently in a state of schism from the true Church. Let us hope and pray that this schism, based on their rejection of the Petrine Ministry, along with their errors on Mary, i.e., their rejection of the dogmatic nature of Mary's Assumption and her Immaculate Conception, and also their heresy in relation to the Sacrament of Marriage, i.e., the fact that they permit divorce and remarriage, will one day be overcome and that they will be restored to full communion with the Bishop of Rome and once again give complete adherence to the true faith in full.

Edited June 11, 2004 by Apotheoun

[BeenaBobba]

There are some minor disagreements as well, and sometimes they're not even seen as disagreements by ecumenical Orthodox Christians. (There's no universal Orthodox attitude towards Catholics. Some are very ecumenical and friendly, whereas others despise the Catholic Church.) Other disagreements would include Original Sin, Purgatory (or the Final Theosis), Atonement theology, the filioque, usage of statues and any "realistic" art in the Roman Catholic Church, and logic playing a part in theology.

The more polemical Orthodox Christians (and thankfully, many Orthodox Christians aren't like this at all) deny the validity of some Catholic Sacraments and are quite bitter towards the Catholic Church. Thankfully, the current Patriarch of Constantinople has very warm relations with the Catholic Church and the Holy Father. He's very ecumenical (and is disliked by the more polemical Orthodox Christians).

God bless,

Jennifer

[Norseman82]

In addition, I've heard that the Eastern Orthodox churches allow divorce/remarriage (up to three marriages).

If you like the liturgies, you may wish to attend an Eastern Rite Catholic church. They have the Divine Liturgies but are united with the Pope.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Jun 11 2004, 01:07 AM'] In addition, I've heard that the Eastern Orthodox churches allow divorce/remarriage (up to three marriages). [/quote]
Yes, they do. Some also allow contraception as well. (I've even read of some who allow abortion in rare cases where the mother's life is in danger. )

God bless,

Jen

[Norseman82]

I do have a general question, though. I read that in 1965 Pope Paul VI and the Ecunemical Patriarch of Constantinople reversed the excommunications of 1054. Is this true, and if so, what does this mean for Catholic-Orthodox relations?

[qfnol31]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm"]New Advent on this[/url]

That's a very informational link.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Jun 11 2004, 01:12 AM'] I do have a general question, though. I read that in 1965 Pope Paul VI and the Ecunemical Patriarch of Constantinople reversed the excommunications of 1054. Is this true, and if so, what does this mean for Catholic-Orthodox relations? [/quote]
It is true that the mutual excommunications were lifted. This is a very important step towards unity. As to what it means specifically, though, I'm not sure.

God bless,

Jen

[Hananiah]

Eastern Orthodox treat Eastern Catholics like dirt. The Pope needs to stop doing the kowtow to ex-KGB agents turned schismatic bishops and give the Ukranians a patriarch.

[quote]Fr. Taft was interviewed by John L. Allen Jr. in the online version of the National Catholic Reporter’s "Word From Rome" (Feb. 6; NCRonline.org). The interview was prompted by Walter Cardinal Kasper’s then-impending visit to meet with the Patriarch of Moscow, Alexy II, regarding the delicate matter of the erection of a patriarchate in Kiev for the 5.5 million Greek Catholics in Ukraine, the largest Eastern Catholic Church in communion with Rome. Here are excerpts from the interview:

Q. Aside from Orthodox sensitivities, is there any argument against erecting a patriarchate in Ukraine?

A. Oh, good heavens, no….

Q. But there’s no intra-Catholic reason to object to the patriarchate?

A. Are you kidding? We’ve got a patriarchate for the Copts whose total membership would fit in this room…. Give me a break….

Q. What is it that bothers the Orthodox so much about the idea of a Ukrainian patriarchate?

A. What bothers them is the very existence of these churches. They look upon all of these people as their property….

Q. The Orthodox say that [the] Union of 1596 was dissolved in 1946.

A. Everybody knows what a comedy that was. Even the [Communist] secret police who organized the thing have spilled the beans in print. As everybody knows, all of the bishops of the Catholic church were arrested, so how can you have a synod without bishops?...

Q. So what is the real issue for the Orthodox?

A. To attempt to apply rational analysis to this is to fail to understand what the East is. Once you get over on this side of the Atlantic Ocean [i.e., Europe], the further you go South or East from anywhere, the worse everything gets, except the food. Logic gets worse, rationality gets worse, and everything ultimately winds up in hysteria and emotionalism. It’s futile to try and reason about this.

Q. So the Catholic church is never going to persuade the Orthodox to accept the [Greek Catholic] patriarchate [in Kiev]?

A. No, and I don’t think we should even try. To hell with Moscow.

Q. What realistically can Kasper hope to accomplish?

A. By talking turkey…he could make some headway…. There are over 300,000 Catholics in European Russia…. To say that a church doesn’t have a right to erect a diocese there is absurd, especially when the Orthodox plant metropolitans wherever they want…. Vienna has been a Catholic see since the first millennium, yet the Russian Orthodox have a metropolitan, not just "in" Vienna but "of" Vienna — that’s his title. Yet there probably aren’t 5,000 Russian Orthodox in the whole of Austria. Fair is fair….

Q. So Kasper is not going to persuade the Orthodox. Is his goal to soften the blow when it comes?

A. Yes. I think what Kasper needs to do is to tell them that this is probably going to happen sooner or later, and if you get bent out of shape, that reaction is going to hurt nobody but yourself. Nobody. Do we need them? Answer, no. Simple as that.

Q. Do you think they know that?

A. Probably not…. It’s extremely difficult for the Orthodox to face up to their own reality…. For example, there are hundreds of thousands of Catholics today in Siberia. How come? Because the Russians dragged them there in cattle cars, that’s how come. Let’s say it the way it is…. Were there Catholic dioceses in Russia before the revolution wiped them out? Yes, there were…. If there are Catholic bishops now in regions where there weren’t before the revolution, it’s for the reason I just gave — these people were dragged to those regions in cattle cars. The pope didn’t drag them there. Let’s say it the way it is. They [the Eastern Orthodox] are incapable of facing reality.

Q. So, tough love is your approach.

A. Absolutely. That was one of the problems of the Secretariat of Christian Unity under [Cardinal] Willebrands. When the Orthodox would say something outrageous, [we] would make remonstrances privately, but never did anything appear in public. You can’t do it that way. That makes them think they’re getting away with it. It’s got to be front page, in your face. [The Orthodox say] we shouldn’t have a Catholic bishop in Moscow. Well, let’s see, there’s a Russian Orthodox metropolitan in Brussels, to say nothing of Paris, of London. Up to a while ago, there were three Orthodox bishops in Oxford. All of the Orthodox in Oxford you could fit into a telephone booth. You’ve got to challenge this sort of nonsense.[/quote]
[url="http://www.cruxnews.com/NORNotes/nor-11june04.html"]http://www.cruxnews.com/NORNotes/nor-11june04.html[/url]

[P3chrmd]

Eastern Orthodox believe in the Assumption of Our Lady! But they do not believe in the Immaculate conception because they have a different belief of what sin is then we catholics do! They believe that Mary was always a virgin...but that she did sin in her life...but on the day of pentecost she was purified again by the power of the holy spirit, and they believe that that justifies their belief in the assumption! I personally don't understand how you can't believe in one and not the other...but oh well..that's why I love being Catholic!

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Hananiah' date='Jun 11 2004, 01:11 PM'] Eastern Orthodox treat Eastern Catholics like dirt. The Pope needs to stop doing the kowtow to ex-KGB agents turned schismatic bishops and give the Ukranians a patriarch. [/quote]
Really? I thought some Eastern Churches really like don't mind us. According to that New Advent link I posted, some people don't like us (the Roman Catholics), but there are some relations going on.

By Eastern Orthodox, does that include/refer to the Greek Orthodox?

[Apotheoun]

"Eastern Orthodox treat Eastern Catholics like dirt. The Pope needs to stop doing the kowtow to ex-KGB agents turned schismatic bishops and give the Ukranians a patriarch."

I completely agree with you on this. I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a Patriarch for the Ukrainian Catholic Church. There are 5.5 million Ukrainian Catholics, and they have been loyal to the Pope for over four centuries, so this [i]sui juris[/i] Church should be raised to the dignity of a Patriarchal status.

[Apotheoun]

"Really? I thought some Eastern Churches really like don't mind us. According to that New Advent link I posted, some people don't like us (the Roman Catholics), but there are some relations going on. By Eastern Orthodox, does that include/refer to the Greek Orthodox?"

The Eastern Orthodox generally do not like Eastern Catholics, and see Eastern Catholics as [i]latinized[/i] heretics. They normally call us by the pejorative term [i]uniates[/i], because they hold that we have sold out to the Pope, and that we are no longer truly eastern in our spiritual customs and theology.

As far the second question is concerned, yes, the Greek Orthodox Church is an autocephalous Eastern Orthodox Church, as is the Russian Orthodox Church (which is divided into several Churches at the present moment), the Romanian Orthodox Church, etc.

[Apotheoun]

"Eastern Orthodox believe in the Assumption of Our Lady! But they do not believe in the Immaculate conception because they have a different belief of what sin is then we catholics do!"

This is a very complex issue, but the Eastern Orthodox generally believe in the [i]Assumption[/i] of our Lady, although they normally call this doctrine by the name of the [i]Dormition[/i], i.e., the falling asleep of Mary. But they deny the dogmatic nature of this teaching, because they reject the authority of the Pope in defining dogmas. The Eastern Orthodox reject both the Papal Primacy of jurisdiction in the Church and also the dogma of Papal infallibility.

As far as it concerns the Immaculate Conception, the Eastern Orthodox deny this dogma because they have a mistaken notion of what the Catholic Church teaches about original sin. They generally confuse the Calvinist view of original sin with the Catholic dogma of original sin, but the Catholic Church has never taught that man is [i]depraved[/i] after the fall, quite the contrary the Catholic Church has always taught that man lost nothing essential to his nature in the fall; instead, he lost the supernatural gift of sanctifying (i.e., deifying) grace and the preternatural gifts of [i]infused knowledge[/i], [i]immortality[/i], [i]impassibility[/i], and [i]integrity[/i]. Thus, original sin is not a positive existing element or quality in the nature of the human person, it is instead the absence of sanctyfing grace in the soul. It is important to note what the Eastern Orthodox themselves believe about Mary, for they hold that Mary is [i]all pure[/i], that she is [i]immaculate[/i], that she never sinned; and so in fact, in their liturgical worship, they express the same belief about Mary as Catholics do, i.e., that from the first moment of her existence she was in a state of sanctyfing grace, because that is what being [i]all pure[/i] requires. She could hardly be [i]all pure[/i] if she had lacked sanctyfing grace at any point in her life. So although there are semantical differences in the way that we describe this mystery, both East and West believe that Mary was in a state of sanctyfing grace throughout her life, which is exactly what the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception is meant to convey.

Edited June 11, 2004 by Apotheoun

[phatcatholic]

apotheoun,

dude, u are amazing. i learn so much from you every single time you post.

dUSt, make this guy a church scholar!!

[peach_cube]

I second that motion.

[theculturewarrior]

For me, the biggest argument against Orthodoxy is the way they treat others, and even themselves!

Bro. Adam, I highly recommend you study Orthodoxy. Do so with an open heart and mind, but weigh every position carefully. I would however suggest you stay away from Orthodox internet forums. Read books instead, on both sides of the fence.

I say this because the EO's are the only other Church that claim to be the True Church. You need to investigate the other arguments, because swimming the Tiber carries with it moral obligations.

Bendiciones!