Catlick Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) How do I know this is true? I'm not very active in parish life. Maybe I'm a bad Christian. But do you say this because women run all the bake sales and croutons like that? Just look at the liturgy in most parishes. All very feminine, only speaking about 'connection' and 'sharing' and 'commitment' instead of 'spiritual war' and 'repentance' and 'judgment'. Edited February 4, 2015 by Catlick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 who do you see running Parish committees. who do you see heading up ministries. who do you see at Mass during the week and on Sunday. Answer: mostly women. I don't know who runs a lot of that stuff and yes there's more women than men in Mass but that doesn't mean it's because men aren't expected or welcomed there. It could be the reason yes, but it could also be that religion is not as appealing to men as it is to women. Christianity in particular was considered a religion of women, children, and slaves in its early days. Just look at the liturgy in most parishes. All very feminine, only speaking about 'connection' and 'sharing' and 'commitment' instead of 'spiritual war' and 'repentance' and 'judgment'. I don't buy it. I've heard plenty of homilies talking about both the "soft and fluffy" interpersonal junk and judgement/sin/repentance stuff. And to say that men prefer talk about death and judgement is a GROSS oversimplification and probably where I think the reverse might be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) I don't know who runs a lot of that stuff and yes there's more women than men in Mass but that doesn't mean it's because men aren't expected or welcomed there. It could be the reason yes, but it could also be that religion is not as appealing to men as it is to women. Christianity in particular was considered a religion of women, children, and slaves in its early days. I agree with you that many men think of Catholicism as a religion for women, children, and "slaves" of one kind or another. So the question is: why. This has not always been the case. And it is not the case everywhere, where religion is concerned - not even within Christianity. (Most evangelical Christians, Muslims and Orthodox Jews or Conservative asheknazi Jews etc. do not have the same kind of pronounced gender imbalance.) The reason Catholic laymen do not participate in parish life is because there is no room for them. The reason it is impossible in many places to recruit boys for altar service is because there is no room for them. I mean - no psycho-social room. There are many many other places for girls. Why not let boys have this small corner. Regardless of whether its "fair' to particular girls. Think of it as a kind of "affirmative action" to redress the gender imbalance. Edited February 5, 2015 by Lilllabettt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I'm here for the open shirted Captain Picard. I totally agree with the no-space-for-men thing but given the current environment where most people have a political understanding of gender, it's not a fight worth having. I think vocations are declining for many reasons, in fact they are declining more slowly than overall irreligiousness is growing. Girl altar servers are low on the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puellapaschalis Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Altar servers are supposed to be clerics; it's only in that there are usually not enough clerics around that laymen have been permitted to serve. Girl altar servers started as a disobedience and turned into a hijacking. It is good that people realise what serving at the altar is about, what it means, is, and signifies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katiebobatie94 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Not sure how much this matters, but I was an altar server for almost eight years & as I got older I was given the jobs for the "big boys" (i.e. incense, directing the younger servers at big Masses, assisting with the rehearsals for the big Masses, etc) simply because I knew what I was doing. Never once did I think to myself "I wish I could be a priest", or anything like that. I knew my place in the bigger picture of things. Being a server gave me a sense of responsibility & commitment, and it taught me that people watch what I do on and off the altar, and that they would associate my actions with what they saw me doing at Mass. It also gave me a lot of confidence to defend my faith when my friends would ask me about different things that Catholics do. (The priest who trained us, didn't just teach us how to serve the Mass. He taught us the meanings behind why we did what we did.) Maybe its me, but I don't really think there is anything wrong with a girl serving. I know I didn't really pay attention to the Mass until I started serving. It helped my faith to grow so much. I also tend to think that altar serving in general raises the question of a vocation, both in boys and girls. The thing is, regardless of gender, when you are serving Mass and you are actually aware of what is going on, you learn so much about Love. And about sacrifice. You learn about the beauty, and value, of both of those things. Serving raises the question of "If God asked Father to be a priest, and he said yes, what would I do if he asked me to serve him as a priest of a sister?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Not sure how much this matters, but I was an altar server for almost eight years & as I got older I was given the jobs for the "big boys" (i.e. incense, directing the younger servers at big Masses, assisting with the rehearsals for the big Masses, etc) simply because I knew what I was doing. Never once did I think to myself "I wish I could be a priest", or anything like that. I knew my place in the bigger picture of things. Being a server gave me a sense of responsibility & commitment, and it taught me that people watch what I do on and off the altar, and that they would associate my actions with what they saw me doing at Mass. It also gave me a lot of confidence to defend my faith when my friends would ask me about different things that Catholics do. (The priest who trained us, didn't just teach us how to serve the Mass. He taught us the meanings behind why we did what we did.) Maybe its me, but I don't really think there is anything wrong with a girl serving. I know I didn't really pay attention to the Mass until I started serving. It helped my faith to grow so much. I also tend to think that altar serving in general raises the question of a vocation, both in boys and girls. The thing is, regardless of gender, when you are serving Mass and you are actually aware of what is going on, you learn so much about Love. And about sacrifice. You learn about the beauty, and value, of both of those things. Serving raises the question of "If God asked Father to be a priest, and he said yes, what would I do if he asked me to serve him as a priest of a sister?" It's wonderful that you had that experience - but what about the boys? We all know that girls mature faster than boys. We all know that many younger boys will hesitate to join a group that includes girls. We all know there is something special that happens when a group of men and boys learn from each other, together. There are many places in parish life where girls gather -- many groups that are all women. Why not let altar service be a place for boys? I'm not denying that altar serving can have be beneficial for girls. But a space for boys will not happen naturally. If we want boys to practice, we must make a space for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puellapaschalis Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I (a puella) was an altar server and MC for years. Altar service is not a place for girls and/or women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I think its best for boys to be altar servers. It helps vocations and its less confusing. My understanding is that the Holy See considers it more ideal to have altar boys - based on a letter from 1994 calling it a noble tradition that should continue. Even if something is allowed by Rome or a Bishop as an indult doesn't mean its equally helpful spiritually as the traditional or normal way. Statements on altar girls are not prescriptive and Bishops or priests are free to not allow them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Just to add to that, I think its much more beautiful for women to simply pray as Our Lady did by the Cross... Its an imitation of Our Blessed Mother. That can't be wrong. I much prefer that to serving at the altar as a woman because it is more like Our Lady. If I were a boy I would want to serve I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) More news from San Francisco Archbishop of San Francisco defends morality codes for Catholic schools State of californa demands archbishop nix morality statement used in catholic schools The statement outlines the church's teaching that using contraception is a sin and that sex outside of marriage, whether it is in the form of adultery, masturbation, pornography or gay sex, is "gravely evil." lawmakers on Tuesday urged the archbishop of San Francisco to remove from a teachers' handbook morality clauses they say are discriminatory and divisive. The lawmakers said in a letter to Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone that the clauses "foment a discriminatory environment" and send "an alarming message of intolerance to youth." LINK: http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/Lawmakers-urge-archbishop-to-remove-morality-6086158.php Edited February 22, 2015 by little2add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 In a related story, it turns out that Archbishop Cordileone is actually Catholic. Diocese of San Francisco shocked. Several liberals publish angry screeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Anything that restores the ancient ways of the Church is a healthy change. Because of the modernization of many Churches and the attitudes which are currently condoned many forget that there is a sanctuary that is designated as a sacred space. It's really a space reserved for priests being that they are dedicated to the holy sacrifice of the mass. Any layperson given the honor to set foot in the sanctuary is acting in substitute for a priest, which is why even young altar servers in the ancient rite would wear cassocks, an attire exclusively reserved for clerics. The fact that altar-girls do not dawn cassocks is probably the one thing I can say was a prudential decision. I also think it's a healthy because it restores a proper understanding of gender. Modernity has a tendency to promote a sort of androgynous outlook, as if there were not differences between men and woman, but clearly there are two genders for a reason and although we are all called to participate in the economy of salvation, a man's role is particularly different from a woman's. God became a man and not a woman for a reason, and that reason was that a man caused the fall of our race. So the priesthood is a function reserved for men as both a symbolic and literal reference to the work of the Second Adam restoring us from the First Adam's sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 When did the preaching of basic christian morality become discriminatory and divisive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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