History Of The Inquisition

[Justified Saint]

As usual, the line of reasoning being presented by Bruce and Co. is quite faulty. The fact is that much evil as been done in the name of religion and that is all your examples of the "modern inquisition" lead to. It would be like me saying that the KKK was a genuine expression of Protestantism. Now as tempting as this conclusion may sound - it would be very unfair of me to say that the KKK accurately represents the means and purposes of the Protestant religion. A group of people get together and decide to suppress anything that isn't white, American, or Protestant and it becomes a country-wide sensation, but still it isn't Protestantism. Sure, the Reformers preached such persecution but all adherents of the Reformation will tell you that they shouldn't be taken seriously in that regard (most of them at least).

[Bruce S]

Actually the battle IS being "won" in a sense.

In the past 30 years alone, a conservative estimate is that, 30,000,000 Catholics have been "converted" back to Bible based Christianity.

17 million in Brazil alone, and Guatamala may be majority Protestant in five years.

No wonder the "Sect hunters" are fretting.

"The gates of hell will NOT prevail" is a favorite quote of Catholics, and I agree, totally, but not for the same reasons.

[url="http://world.std.com/~pastoral/whyleave.htm"]http://world.std.com/~pastoral/whyleave.htm[/url]

Edited June 14, 2004 by Bruce S

[Guest JeffCR07]

amarkich, I completely agree, this argument should probably be reserved for another time and another place, though i would like to make the single point that it is infallibly stated that one of the faithful can never be in error for being in line with the Pope, whether he is speaking ex cathedra or not.

If you feel like im not being fair, or am trying to get in the "last word" I apologize, and feel free to comment back, knowing that I'll gladly hold my response for another day


On a different note, thanks a ton Justified, I'm finally getting some backup on my argument from a while ago. I used the analogy of 9/11: its not like we blame Islam for the tragedy and the act of terror, despite the fact that it was done at the hands of muslims who (in error) believe that their actions are called for by the Islamic faith.

You can't hold the faith accountable for something that extremist, or people who misunderstand the teachings, do. Period.

[Winchester]

My oh my, I have not lost my ability to stir controversy. Shucks, ya'll make me feel so good.

I am going to say something that will osund terrible (which is, in part, why Winchester was put upon this earth, as the small public who knows the name may attest), but in discussing something so serious as the inquisition, it needs be a rather cold mind that does the analysis. Yes, it is a passionate subject and of grave importance, but too much emotion will lead to hasty conclusions.
Since I still see the outstanding commentary on the Inquisition (killing, torture, etcetera) I am left with the same conclusion: You people simply don't know the facts, or you'd be discussing things differently. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like.

Bruce,

I've yet to see an answer to my initial questions, and your accusations that the Inquisition still exists leave me puzzled, since your examples are of those things the Inquisition (here the idea rather than the specific courts convened) was in part able to stop.

If by Inquisition you mean mob action against non-Catholics, then you are not speaking of the Inquisition instituted by the Cahtolic Church.

If you speak of the CDF, then yes, the office is still in operation. Not exactly a state secret, that.

The Inquisition was never designed to be brought to bear against non-Catholics. A heretic is a Catholic who rejected the faith in part. The idea was to reconcile the heretic to the faith. Mosty cases ended in penance of some sort: a sentence often reduced when proving too difficult. Torture was introduced later in the procedures and shunned by some as unreliable.
Unpalatable though it may be, we must look at the society of the time. These people believed very deeply. Death was pretty common: we live in a society that avoids death remarkably easy. How many have watched children die? How many have first hand seen an epidemic of death? War? Death existed, as did Hell, and people went there for their beliefs. We all of us Christians believe that, do we not? So what would torture be in the course of trying to save someone from eternal fire? This was not done for its own sake, but to the end of getting a soul to Heaven. Again, I'm not saying you have to think it's good or even wise, and some inquisitors would have agreed with you, I'm just saying look at the idea behind it.
States saw heretics as dangerous. Heretics were as dangerous to the social order then as Al Qaida is to us now. The Cathari belief that no oaths were valid, for instance, attacked the very heart of society. States reacted in kind, and as a rule, much more harshly than inquisitors.


The point has been made that "Catholic Church's" never change. In Winchester tradition, I sarcastically ask does that mean Ukrainian, Maronite or Coptic Catholics do? And if so, then why not join one of those Rites? But I digress and point out: Well, duh!
If there is one thing reading the Bible teaches, it is that no one changes. To sum up the OT: God love the Israelites, they do something evil, God punishes them, they repent, God forgives the Israelites, go back to the first.
Now, the Inquisition was not a mob burning down houses. It was a proper court. It could be corrupted. The Spanish Inquisition was co-opted by the government and was the worst of the five inquisitions. Why? Because people are evil, another lesson from the Bible, and that one's in Catholic and non-Catholic versions; Jewish Scriptures, too; also let's note that in the Catholic government we have had many knaves, dogs, jerks, dimwits and scumbags, and no one worth his salt has ever denied that, because it is part of the beauty of the Church that she goes on in spite of this.



Budge,

A) The numbers of dead depend upon the Inquisition in question.

B) It was in fact the state who undertook executions, after the guilty were turned over to them. The Church did not come up with the idea of heresy. That's pre-Church and certainly not unique to her, as all Christians in that block of time (into the early days of America) saw it fit that dissenters be killed. The Church is remarkable for limiting that to those who left her, since merely not being a memeber of other Churches was enough to die.

C) In some instances, I'm sure you would agree to the good works of inquisitors. The defeat of the Cathari, for example in France, the many who were turned from heresies you would find damaging to one's spiritual state (denial of Christ's divinity, for instance) and then being sentenced to a penance like a pilgrimmage (penalties usually reduced on request), defense from mobs demanding suspected heretics that they may be burned, to name a few. Don't blanket the entire idea, look at the individual cases. It's complex.

Records. Technology sadly did not permit xeroxing or uploading to computers. Also lacking were electric lights and sprinklers to diminish the likelihood or damage of fires. Travel wasn't so easy, either and air conditioning was limited to those fat cats in the Vatican (ha ha). Records got destroyed, that's reality.
Yes the Vatican has records, but imagine the volumes of documents througth the ages, and the shameful lack of the Dewey decimal system. Some records exist. Many, in fact. Good luck, though, unless you have years and knowledge of ancient languages at your disposal.
The Pope isn't saying we don't have records, he's saying things take time and knowledge. A knee-jerk might make you happy, but it probably won't be accurate.
The pope didn't say murdering people (a judgement on the intent of the act you simply aren't in a position to make, especially in such a blanket matter), he said that mitigating factors did not excuse people doing wrong things while trying to do the right.

People aren't coming out with blanket statements. Why? Becuase the situation was complex. You have to investigate and then perhaps judge. Perhaps, I say, because enough information amy not be available and one must then discern whether such things should occur again.

Lumberjack,

Are you telling me you don't know the difference between appointed judges and mobs? The Supreme Court ain't hiring right now, but they'll one day need some people who don't know what pornography is, and you could be one of the seven.


And now a word about honesty and laziness:

Read the entire article, so you can avoid embarrassing quotes correcting your proo-texting. Don't murder the meaning of disembodied quotes to suit your plans, some of us have read in entirety the documents being thrust at us like OJ's bloody gloves.

Answer the questions. If this dodging and hijack garbage is what you call hardball, then I'd hate to see the kiddie league stuff you allegedly have been trotting out.



What really ticks me off most is that no one mentioned my reference to my avatar in my initial post. Yes it was coarse, but this is not rocket science.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I must say, that was darn good Winchester. lol, Everytime anyone mentions the CDF I get all excited: Ratzinger is the man. Sometimes I wish we could just get him on phatmass and have him lay the smack down, lol.

I apologize to all for that outburst of blatant pro-catholic bias. I have returned to a sane-level of catholicism, and can engage in legitimate debate as normal.

[Budge]

[quote]it needs be a rather cold mind that does the analysis. Yes, it is a passionate subject and of grave importance, but too much emotion will lead to hasty conclusions.[/quote]

Cold minds?

Would this be something Jesus would want?

Did Jesus ever act with a cold mind?

Isnt our goal to become like Christ.

Those who watched people languish in the dungeons, mothers, fathers, children losing parents and watching people burn at the stake DEFINITELY had to have cold minds.

I dont think it should be a cold mind that does the analysis.

One thing about the Catholic Church that seriously concerns me is the honor of COLDNESS. Rationality with no heart. In UUism and free thought circles REASON is highest ideal. Heart is lost. Soul is lost. Think about it.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 14 2004, 06:02 PM']Actually the battle IS being "won" in a sense.

In the past 30 years alone, a conservative estimate is that, 30,000,000 Catholics have been "converted" back to Bible based Christianity.

17 million in Brazil alone, and Guatamala may be majority Protestant in five years.

No wonder the "Sect hunters" are fretting.

"The gates of hell will NOT prevail" is a favorite quote of Catholics, and I agree, totally, but not for the same reasons.

[url="http://world.std.com/~pastoral/whyleave.htm"]http://world.std.com/~pastoral/whyleave.htm[/url][/quote]
This does not fully imply that the Church is failing, it implies that the road to righteousness is long and narrow. Noted, there are some dioceses that suffer from heterodoxy (thus turning people away from the faith), but that is not a majority. Today's Protestantism tends to be [b]easier[/b], with less moral obligations and "useless ritual".

Easy = Truth, is not always correct.

[dUSt]

Facts don't remain to exist just because they're ignored.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 15 2004, 07:57 AM']
Cold minds?

Would this be something Jesus would want?

Did Jesus ever act with a cold mind?

Isnt our goal to become like Christ.

Those who watched people languish in the dungeons, mothers, fathers, children losing parents and watching people burn at the stake DEFINITELY had to have cold minds.

I dont think it should be a cold mind that does the analysis.

One thing about the Catholic Church that seriously concerns me is the honor of COLDNESS. Rationality with no heart. In UUism and free thought circles REASON is highest ideal. Heart is lost. Soul is lost. Think about it. [/quote]
Budge,
Please consider what you wrote.[quote]Cold minds?

Would this be something Jesus would want?

Did Jesus ever act with a cold mind?

Isnt our goal to become like Christ.

Those who watched people languish in the dungeons, mothers, fathers, children losing parents and watching people burn at the stake DEFINITELY had to have cold minds.[/quote]Is Jesus not God? Did Jesus not watch His mother and followers suffer emotional anguish as they watched Jesus die on the Crucifix?

Is Jesus not God? Did Jesus not watch His chosen Apostles and beloved Disciples and followers also die excruciating deaths on crosses and by nail and claw of animals to serve as entertainment?

Is Jesus not God? Did Jesus not stand beside a 6 year old girl who watched her father dragged out of the house and killed by mobs, simply because he proclaimed his belief in Jesus Christ, the son of God?

You ask if Jesus ever acted with a cold mind. What is a cold mind? Is a cold mind thinking beyond human emotion and seeking God's Will and Plan, the effects of Evil, God's permiting Evil to exist, God's bringing Triumph and Good from acts of evil committed by Satan and humanity?

You need to learn more about Islam. You need to learn more about their fear of the power of Evil. They fear a cold mind and cannot look deeply at Evil. They fear it and believe the God cannot Triumph over it. They deny Jesus as the Son of God because they believe Evil Triumphs over God if God is crucified on the Cross. The mindset you just proposed is the same.

God Triumphs despite Evil. Everytime. But we are always allowed to choose our defeat in Evil, and reject our Trimph that God has won for our sake.

It's a bigger concept and perspective that is not easily glimpsed by the mind of humanity.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Also Budge, you are yet again not speaking to the actual point that Winchester was trying to make, but rather are nitpicking on a singular issue and, it seems, hoping to skirt around the argument he makes.

However, if clarity is necessary, and you truly don't understand what he meant when he said "cold minds" I think I can answer for Winchester on this one.

He means by "cold minds" that the issue and questions at hand must be approached and dealt with by Reason, rather than emotion. This Christ most certainly WOULD approve of. Of course he was emotive when he spoke and taught, but it was emotion that BACKED his Reason.

Christ did not simply yell angrily or let his emotions reign when he dealt with the traps of the Pharisees and Sadducees. He used clear Reason to show them that they were wrong, and why.

So, if you please, embrace Reason, and address Winchester's ARGUMENT, not the word choice of a phrase or two

[Winchester]

Budge,

That's all you care to comment on? I worked on something for a chunk of time, not to mention the investement of previous studies, and you latch on to a bit of advice, ignoring the caveats, ignoring the vast body of the post in favor of mentioning only the extreme which are not the Inquisition entire?

Debate and exposure of truth is not always served by emotional outburst, my point made by your extremely rude ignoring of most of my post.

If this rhetoric is how you are going to go about our discussion, then I will excuse myself now, lest I waste further effort on you.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Hold up winchester, lets wait and see if he'll address your argument...I doubt it, but lets give him the chance...

[the lumberjack]

[quote]QUOTE:me, earlier today
Budge is a man???

QUOTE:KENNC, sometime after me
No, .. she is a she.

Peace, Ken[/quote]

JUST IN CASE YOU GUYS WERE WONDERING whether SHE was a WOMAN or not.

hahahahaha

God bless.

Christ first.

[Winchester]

Fair enough Jeff, I'll do that.

[Bruce S]

[QUOTE][b]Winchester said: -> My oh my, I have not lost my ability to stir controversy. Shucks, ya'll make me feel so good. [/b] [/QUOTE]

In that we are alike, but hey, I've had to keep pretty civil, and the FACT that MY fellow co-religionists, the Pentecostals, ARE right now, this very day, being harrassed, hounded, fleeing FROM Catholic Inquistion-LIKE actions around the world as we type here, safely in our caccoon of wealth and privilige, is not just my thoughts, but my passion. My denomination, the Assembly of God, has a very vigorous outreach in nations that are almost totally Roman Catholic, although our Evangelism magazine tries NOT to ever mention the words, "Roman Catholic Oppression" if you know the score, and the climate, and who is running things around the world, it is VERY easy to see the threatened Catholic church, seeing hundreds of thousands, and even millions walking out the door, as behind the threats, church burnings, firings, ostracizings, lootings, and beatings that Pentecostals face today, this very day, in Catholic nations. You want to make the Inquistion a thing of the past, and pretend that it is over, a historical thing, gone over with, ended. And to me, it isn't, sorry.

[QUOTE][b]Winchester said: -> I am going to say something that will sound terrible (which is, in part, why Winchester was put upon this earth, as the small public who knows the name may attest), but in discussing something so serious as the inquisition, it needs be a rather cold mind that does the analysis. Yes, it is a passionate subject and of grave importance, but too much emotion will lead to hasty conclusions.

Since I still see the outstanding commentary on the Inquisition (killing, torture, etcetera) I am left with the same conclusion: You people simply don't know the facts, or you'd be discussing things differently. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like.[[/b]/QUOTE]

Nope, for YOU it is analytical, cold, indiffernt to the sufferings, horrors, pain, torture, loss of standing, reputation, and ultimately, horrid death, death proclaimed as NEEDED ... for what? To protect the power, wealth, control, of evil men leading a even more evil system, a system that used God, used Jesus for thie own glory, their own privilidge, their own status, their own corrupted and twisted system of perversion. While leading ungodly lives themselves, keeping mistresses, prostitution sactioned by the church, and trying desperately to keep men enslaved into their system, they hid the glorious word of God himself, giving out only enough of it to support their control mechanisms. Wherever Godly people wanted OUT of that system, they harrassed them, imprisioned them, ripped out tounges, gouged eyes, and took every utterance down to glorify those events, you can still, to this very day, read for yourself the groans, screams, cries of those under torture, as the scribes recorded it for posterity. And YOU are saying, in a sick way, that YOU think it was "needed" right, and PROTECTED the body of Christ?! From what? The bible in English or German? From a personal relationship with Jesus outside the massively corrupt sytem that was and is the Catholic church? They were protecting THEMSELVES they were terrorists, evil, vile, men that wanted nothing but power, control, and ultimately, were willing to kill hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, for that goal. Sorry, again, this is not over, not for us, those that are the spritual heirs of those tortures, lootings, book burnings, information suppression, and for some, the need to uproot their lives, move away, to escape the horrors that you COLDLY say were acceptable?


[quote][b] Winchester said: ->

Bruce,

I've yet to see an answer to my initial questions, and your accusations that the Inquisition still exists leave me puzzled, since your examples are of those things the Inquisition (here the idea rather than the specific courts convened) was in part able to stop.

If by Inquisition you mean mob action against non-Catholics, then you are not speaking of the Inquisition instituted by the Cahtolic Church.[/b][/quote]

The Roman Catholic church CAN STOP all these current harrassments, church burnings, but the INFLAMMATORY language of the Pope and Bishops in these nations, calling PROTESTANT PENTECOSTALS 'cults/sects/heretics' and I have provided links and quotes, and can provide many many more, shows that this is defacto sactioned, if not encouraged by the Catholic bishops in these nations. They could, EXCOMMUNICATE Catholics that are mob like, doing these things, they have NOT, not one has been tossed out, the inflammatory language, that incites these mobs of faithful catholics continues right now. Want more links and quotes, I can provide them all day long if you wish. No, this is FEAR, and that is what the Catholic Church has always used against those it percieves as a threat to their cushy lifestyle of the rich and famous the leaders, raw, naked, fear, backed up with threats, and those are being carried out now, and you and I both know that.


[quote][b]Winchester said: ->

If you speak of the CDF, then yes, the office is still in operation. Not exactly a state secret, that.[/b][/quote]

Ah, the new fancy name to cover up that the Catholic Church is still doing the same thing, but now, they are oh, so sophisticated, they don't actually have courts [actually they do] and they don't hand over Catholics that want to leave to the executioners, but they don't STOP it either, where are the WARNINGS from the Pope and Ratzinger to the Catholic faithful in south america to STOP, end these atrocities? I haven't seen any, oh, maybe some crocodile tears, and mouthy regrets, but they have the power, to end it, they have chosen not to, for they know that only with intimidation, and implicit fear, can they hope to slow down the exodus out the front door of the millions that have been oppressed by the unholy alliance between church and state, those concordance agreements, where the Catholic Church prohibits any education, that isn't Catholic controlled, where the state works hand in glove with the Catholic Church to oppress people, where money, from drugs, slavery, prostitution flows into the coffers of the Catholic Church for turning a blind eye. Yes, that goes on, and can be demonstrated easily.

[quote][b]Winchester said: ->

The Inquisition was never designed to be brought to bear against non-Catholics. A heretic is a Catholic who rejected the faith in part. The idea was to reconcile the heretic to the faith. Mosty cases ended in penance of some sort: a sentence often reduced when proving too difficult. Torture was introduced later in the procedures and shunned by some as unreliable.[/b] [/quote

The heck it wasn't. Jews were given the choice, convert, or leave, and IF they dared to try to pretend they were real converts, but held onto a Jewish holiday, like Passover, they were informed on, turned over to the Spanish Inquistion, put on the rack, had their bodies mangled, and many were stangled. Is THIS the way of Christ? Show me where in YOUR bible, that Jesus said, KILL and torture those that wanted a little bit of freedom from a man made legalistic, power mad group of evil men, pretending to be Christians, but only ensuring thier own power!

[quote][b]Winchester said: ->

Unpalatable though it may be, we must look at the society of the time. These people believed very deeply. Death was pretty common: we live in a society that avoids death remarkably easy. How many have watched children die? How many have first hand seen an epidemic of death? War? Death existed, as did Hell, and people went there for their beliefs. [/b][/quote]

Those are WORLDLY evils, Satan at work, not Christians killing other Christians for the SOLE REASON that they didn't bow down to, scrape before, and kowtow to the mucky mucks that were the Catholic Church of then, and now to for that matter.

[quote][b]Winchester said: ->

We all of us Christians believe that, do we not? So what would torture be in the course of trying to save someone from eternal fire? This was not done for its own sake, but to the end of getting a soul to Heaven. Again, I'm not saying you have to think it's good or even wise, and some inquisitors would have agreed with you, I'm just saying look at the idea behind it.[/b][/quote]

I have, deeply. They were SAVING souls by killing people, doing Gods work!! Heavens man, listen to yourself, you are giving a pass to most UNCHRISTIAN activites and putting yourself and those men, as JUDGES to save souls by destroying lives and villages! I'm praying for you now, really, if yoiu are this blind, I honestly have little hope for you, your soul and heart are covered with metal, your brain is clouded, your heart is missing.

[quote][b]Winchester said: ->

States saw heretics as dangerous. Heretics were as dangerous to the social order then as Al Qaida is to us now. The Cathari belief that no oaths were valid, for instance, attacked the very heart of society. States reacted in kind, and as a rule, much more harshly than inquisitors.[/b][/quote]

DANGEROUS??!!

To whom, what? God? Hardly.

In England, thousands were tortured, hundreds burned alive.

The ONLY charge brought against those poor souls was possessing a Tyndale ENGLISH translation of the New Testament. Yes. Just possesing the word of God in a language that one could read, was grounds for torture, forfeiture of lands and position, and torture then death.

Read that again.

Owning a vernacular version of Gods WORD was grounds for death.

Killing people for reading Gods word.

That is the reality of the Catholic Church, power, murder, corruption, sexual immorality, pomp, worldly glory, and that is still the Catholic Church in much of the world today.

I've said what I had to say, and I'm offering up your heart now to God, may He, in His wisdom, cause you to repent of this pride of denomination, that has blinded you to these sufferings, then and now, caused by a system that is evil in much that it has done, and is doing, here, in the USA, to the poor victims, and around the world to Protestants, and those who want to leave the Catholic Church.

May God have mercy on us ALL.

Edited June 15, 2004 by Bruce S

[DojoGrant]

Bruce,

Are you against the state exercising its right to enforce the death penalty?

[cmotherofpirl]

Interesting version of reality Bruce.

I look around the world and see Catholic persecution everywhere. I see very little non-catholic persecution, other than in places were Catholics are presecuted as well.

[the lumberjack]

are you for the political involvement of a supposed religious system and its largely visible role in the enforcement thereof?

[Bruce S]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Jun 15 2004, 02:35 PM'] Bruce,

Are you against the state exercising its right to enforce the death penalty? [/quote]
For crimes and such? Yes. However, as my Christian walk continues, and my work with those in prison ministries opens up, I see so many on death row, that have found God, and have inspired others. So, I've got mixed emotions on that right now and can't give a better answer. People, including me, have committed crimes, been punished, we deserved that, and I accept it, for me, and society, but putting them to death, it is a mixed thing, what doest that really accomplish? Life in prision is worse that dying, and for Christians, dying isn't something to be feared, we go to be with God, however bad we WERE, after we find Jesus, our sins are washed by his blood, and we are spotless in the eyes of God.

As for believing IN a God of YOUR understanding, and acting on that to chose a body of believers in a denomination of your choice. With temporal consequences....

NO!!

Religion is not for punishing people, but for saving them, and you do that by love, and acceptance, using man, to control other men, in the name of God, is just plain evil, Satan at work.

[Budge]

Bruce its pretty scary when people defend killing people for their beliefs.

[b]Ironically our Lord and Saviour was put to death for his religious teachings by the STATE.(ROME)[/b]

And HERE we have people defending the same type of behavior.

And here are these people defending killing people and burning them at the stake.
During the Tribulation, the Bible warns the AntiChrist will be martyring many saints.

I hate to say it but when I see the Inquistion being defended on here, it is scary and its pure evil. I have worked in prison for kids (juvenile home in my past career) so I understand points Bruce is making re death penalty.

I seriously cant believe that some have hearts so cold and hard and so devoid of Christian love for the lost--that I am astounded. I have had to pray after being on this thread, the utter coldness has shown itself so badly. There are some people here who need prayer and lots of it even to be shown the truth as for love to their fellow human kind.

[quote]That's all you care to comment on? I worked on something for a chunk of time, not to mention the investement of previous studies, and you latch on to a bit of advice, ignoring the caveats, ignoring the vast body of the post in favor of mentioning only the extreme which are not the Inquisition entire?

Debate and exposure of truth is not always served by emotional outburst, my point made by your extremely rude ignoring of most of my post.[/quote]

To be honest Winchester what can I say to you? You defend something that is so evil, I cannot relate. You condemn emotional outbursts as if human emotion is evil--like love. Defend even the cold analytical minds--I suppose the same time who could burn people to death and think nothing of it. What truth is in your words? I see none. I see nothing even worth debating. You need prayer and lots of it. I will pray that God can break through your hard heart so you can be brought to tears even for the innocents who have died in war and those who have been killed simply for their religious beliefs. It is ironic you and others here defend interfaithism but then on other hand defend killing in the past of those who have believed differently. This connection is not being lost on me.

Edited June 15, 2004 by Budge